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Hare-today Grinds And Organ Supplements

Discussion in 'Raw & Home-Cooked Cat Food' started by EmersonandEvie, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. EmersonandEvie

    EmersonandEvie Thread Starter Mom to Evie, Emerson and Dexter Super Cat

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    Jul 25, 2017
    Middle Georgia
    Hi all,

    I was wondering what kinds of organs that people that use grinds from Hare-Today add to their food. Out of the 10% (80/10/10), 5% is liver and the other 5% is "secreting organs" (there's a list of those, not sure if a blend is better or just a single type of organ). On all of the poultry, the only thing that's listed is 5% liver.

    Sample, courtesy of the Hare-Today website: Product | Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow

    (I'm aware that I have to cut the bone percentage, which I do by adding chunked meat to their food)

    I'm just concerned that my two aren't getting the nutrients that they need from a secreting organ if there aren't any secreting organs to be found in the grinds. Any help would be appreciated!
     

  2. Ardina

    Ardina TCS Member Super Cat

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    Since you're adding boneless meat to cut the bone percentage, by definition, you also end up cutting the organ percentage. To get to 10% organ, I get the ground rabbit organs (higher percentage of secreting organs than the poultry organ mixes, since hearts and gizzard are considered muscle meat). I also get some beef kidney to end up with half liver and half kidney since the rabbit organs are 50% liver and 25% kidney.
     

  3. EmersonandEvie

    EmersonandEvie Thread Starter Mom to Evie, Emerson and Dexter Super Cat

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    Jul 25, 2017
    Middle Georgia
    That makes sense. Thank you!
     

  4. sandyshores

    sandyshores TCS Member Young Cat

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    Nov 23, 2013
    I'm confused, are you saying the ratio of bones to Hare-Today's meat/organ/bones is too high and I need to add more meat/organs to reduce the bone ratio? I also get their supplement and add that to the mixture.
     

  5. Ardina

    Ardina TCS Member Super Cat

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    It depends on which protein you're getting from Hare Today. If it's ground whole carcass rabbit, cavies, quail, or mouse, then they're the appropriate ratios and you only need to supplement the appropriate vitamins. If you're getting their ground chicken, turkey, pheasant, mutton, etc, then it's too much bone and you have to dilute with muscle meat and organs to get it to the right ratio. And then, add supplements.

    If you click on the product, the description should tell you what percentage of meat/bone/organ the ground mix contains.

    What supplement are you using? Is it the alnutrin? If so, be careful - there are two kinds that she sells, one with calcium and one without. If it's the one without calcium, you don't need to worry about bone - just follow the instructions and use with the listed amount of boneless muscle meat and organ. If it's the one without calcium, then you have to get the meat/bone/organ ratio correct first, and then add the alnutrin.
     
    Cindus and sandyshores purraised this.

  6. sandyshores

    sandyshores TCS Member Young Cat

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    Nov 23, 2013
    Thanks for the reply! I bought a Tasin grinder years ago and have been back and forth with making my own with organic chicken/organs at Costco (using the recipe from the Holistic Cat website), buying from Hare-Today, and buying Rad Cat. Thought I had a winner with Rad Cat when they had rabbit, but they discontinued that some time ago and then in August when Rad Cat had another recall I decided to order from Hare Today again because they had a variety of meat and my cats ate them all. Rad Cat has now gone out of business.

    This post came at a good time for me and caught my attention as it hit me that when I made it from the Costco chickens the recipe called for not grinding the rib and one thigh bone... whereas Hare Today grinds the whole chicken and doubt they take out the ribs and one thigh bone!!! I feel so stupid that I didn't think about that or look at the bone ratio of Hare Today until it hit me with this post! Hope I haven't been hurting my cats with too much bone these last couple months!! I do feed them a tablespoon of meat baby food each morning so maybe that has helped give more meat :) I only do that to get down a drop of krill oill and a bit of Vit B12 each day, and every 3 days a bit more of taurine. LoveBug (male) and Peanut (female) are persians and both are 15 years old so that's why the extra Vit B12. If I put any fish/krill oil in their food, my male smells it and won't eat it!!! Baby food is the only way I've found to get omega down him.

    What I'm buying from Hare today is the fine grind meat/organs/bones (chicken, turkey, quail, rabbit, duck). Yes, the supplement is the Alnutrin for cats or ferrets, for bone in grind meats. I buy the one pound packages of meat/organs/bones so it's easy to just defrost one pound at a time of the 5 meat packages, add one scoop of the supplement with 1/2 cup of water in each... and then separate into my 1 cup glass containers and freeze. They list this ratio and say the heart and gizzard are considered muscle meat:
    Chicken: 68% meat 27% bone 5% organ [liver]
    Duck: 71% meat 24% bone 5% organ [liver]
    Rabbit: 75% meat 15% bone 10% organ [liver, pancreas, kidney]
    Quail: 88% meat 10% bone 2% organ [liver]
    Turkey: 68% meat 27% bone 5% organ [liver]
    Question... why does only the rabbit have the pancreas and kidney? Is there something I need to add to the others because they don't have that as "organs."

    The last time I ordered from Hare Today I did get a couple packages of liver and one package of hearts. Thought if I ever wanted to pull out that Tasin again, those would be good to have as I discontinued my Costco membership and Whole Foods is close to me and has whole organic chickens but no organs in them. So with the above ratios in mind, it looks like I need to definitely get the meat ratio up in the Chicken, Duck and Turkey... which would be easy to do as they have hormone/antibiotic free boneless chicken breasts and thighs on sale a lot of times. Then I'd have to figure out a 5% ratio of liver for the meat I add. Seems the hearts and gizzards don't add anything but muscle meat so maybe I just use the hearts I got as "treats" every so often, or put some in as part of the meat ratio. Then I need to add a little more liver to the Quail. Is this reasoning right? Really appreciate your help!
     
    Cindus purraised this.

  7. Ardina

    Ardina TCS Member Super Cat

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    That sounds about right! Heart and gizzard are great ways to add meat - heart because it has taurine and a lot of other nutrients and gizzard because it's great exercise for teeth and jaws.

    In terms of organ, I'm not sure why the chicken and turkey grinds don't have any other organ besides liver. When I used to do homemade ground, I would get some extra kidney and make the mixes 5% liver and 5% kidney.
     
    sandyshores purraised this.

  8. sandyshores

    sandyshores TCS Member Young Cat

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    Nov 23, 2013
    YES! I forgot heart has taurine. Thanks for reminding me!!! Re the kidneys, Hare Today doesn't sell those separately... they sell every other part but not that. I pulled out a couple recipes I had to grind a bird and neither of them had kidneys listed as the ingredients either. They had liver, and they had hearts listed to be added but no kidneys. Maybe they are hard to get out of a bird!
     

  9. Ardina

    Ardina TCS Member Super Cat

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I was referring to the whole beef kidneys. Yes, they're smelly and messy to grind up on your own, but you can use that. I used to defrost it just enough that I could cut a chunk off and then chop it up finely with a knife.

    I recently moved and have been very fortunate to find local butchers that sell all sorts of organ meats, so I haven't had to rely on Hare Today.
     

  10. Cindus

    Cindus TCS Member Young Cat

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    New York State
    My guess is that it's because HT raises their own rabbits and sources unusual animals (e.g., guinea pigs) from farms that produce for specialty markets, like snake owners, that want everything included. The fowl is more generically produced, so they get it with the organs and so forth already removed.

    Again, I'm just guessing.

    I placed my second order the other day and now have a variety of meats, including the rabbit. I'm happy that it has the other secreting organs, but isn't the 15% bone-ratio too high to use without diluting it with extra boneless?

    This thread has been super useful. :)
     

  11. Ardina

    Ardina TCS Member Super Cat

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    Apr 10, 2017
    If you got the regular ground rabbit, then yes you would have to dilute the extra bone. However, the whole carcass ground rabbit is 80/10/10, so you wouldn't have to mess with the ratios.
     

  12. sophie1

    sophie1 TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Aug 16, 2013
    This is exactly the problem with feeding your cat from Hare Today. They're "primary" sources that you have to mix and match to get the ratios you want, and that can get fiendishly complex if you start worrying about secreting organs. I suspect a lot of customers are simply feeding the chubs as is, which probably isn't a good thing if the cats are fed that way exclusively for years. Most people aren't even aware of the issue.

    The author of the catinfo.org site has fed her cats an 80/10/10 mix with only liver as the organ for over a decade, which is the best feeding trial you'll find. Her recipe does not include secreting organs. So I think it's safe to forget this. Just include some whole ground carcasses like rabbit and quail in your cats' diets. And, if you end up feeding a lot of boneless meats to balance out bone percentages, make sure to include ~10% liver.

    I'm not aware of any reports of adverse effects from feeding too much bone apart from constipation in some cats, but I imagine that could easily be the case. A range of 7-10% bone is probably optimal. The catinfo.org recipe for rabbit calls for diluting the bone with added chicken meat, but recommends not adding liver. This isn't because it's unsafe, only that it's not worth the added hassle to do this since the rabbit is only 15% bone and doesn't need much dilution. So I only bother with the added liver when I'm diluting poultry products that are >20% bone.
     

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