feeling very conflicted re: home cooked/raw vs. commercial

[peaches08]

 
for healthy kitties:

4lbs ground meat without bone

7oz chicken livers

200mg vitamin b complex

800iu vitamin e

6000mg taurine

5000mg fish oil

4 egg yolks

5tbsp bone meal 

2c water

maybe some pumpkin?

I think you only need 4 tablespoons of bonemeal per http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html and it calls for 2 tablespoons gelatin (to make up for no cartilage/joints?).

For both recipes you need to add the appropriate amount of Lite salt with iodine...unless I missed something like a thyroid condition?

 

[stephanie42]

the recipe on the site is for 3lbs of meat; i'm using 4 - that's why i upped it a bit. and re: lite salt, i just forgot to type it i have it on my original recipe.

i'm not sure about the gelatin... i can see why one would add it, but not every recipe i've found has gelatin added. also i've heard many gelatins are synthetic now, so wouldn't it not really be useful in that way?

 

[stephanie42]

okay so i've been referred to like five different groups and sites and i still get nothing but conflicting information.  one telling me bonemeal is horrible, one telling me that no raw diet needs added phosphorous or bones... it's seriously like no one knows what they're doing!  do we really understand feline nutritional needs that little?

it really seems like no one feeds ckf/ckd cats raw food.  i find it hard to believe that people who are crazy about food quality like me suddenly give up on that when ckf/ckd is diagnosed.  i just feel like every time i get to a point where i'm ready to jump into homemade raw feeding, someone else mentions something that is contradictory.  ugh.

 

[peaches08]

the recipe on the site is for 3lbs of meat; i'm using 4 - that's why i upped it a bit. and re: lite salt, i just forgot to type it

i have it on my original recipe.

i'm not sure about the gelatin... i can see why one would add it, but not every recipe i've found has gelatin added. also i've heard many gelatins are synthetic now, so wouldn't it not really be useful in that way?

The reason *I* wouldn't up the bone meal is because the extra meat (from 3 to 4 lbs) is already accounted for in the heart meat or same weight of regular meat in place of the heart meat in the recipe.  But, that's what *I* see.

Gelatin...I don't know.  I know Knox is NOT vegetarian and is made from beef and pork, but I certainly can't speak for all gelatins.  I don't add it to my boneless recipes, but they don't eat the boneless recipes as much as they eat the bone-in recipes AND I feed gizzards with almost every meal.  So they're getting joints/connective tissue.

 
okay so i've been referred to like five different groups and sites and i still get nothing but conflicting information.  one telling me bonemeal is horrible, one telling me that no raw diet needs added phosphorous or bones... it's seriously like no one knows what they're doing!  do we really understand feline nutritional needs that little?

it really seems like no one feeds ckf/ckd cats raw food.  i find it hard to believe that people who are crazy about food quality like me suddenly give up on that when ckf/ckd is diagnosed.  i just feel like every time i get to a point where i'm ready to jump into homemade raw feeding, someone else mentions something that is contradictory.  ugh.

I'm not a fan of bonemeal, but to each his own in general.  I use eggshells for my boneless meals.  Another thing, what about trying some bone-in stuff for your non-CKD cats?

 

[stephanie42]

I'm not a fan of bonemeal, but to each his own in general.  I use eggshells for my boneless meals.  Another thing, what about trying some bone-in stuff for your non-CKD cats?

i've been considering offering them some raw bones, but i don't have the ability to grind bones.  why are you not a fan of bone meal?  i thought i knew about feeding cats, and now i realize i know NOTHING.  i feel like i don't know how to best take care of my babies

 

[goholistic]

I'm sorry. I wish I could be of more help. I wonder if part of the challenge is that CKD kitties are often anorexic, nauseous, and losing weight, so they end up getting fed whatever they will eat. I'm not sure if raw falls in that category, being that some cats don't take to it right away, or if people just don't even try it. 

 

 

[peaches08]

 
i've been considering offering them some raw bones, but i don't have the ability to grind bones.  why are you not a fan of bone meal?  i thought i knew about feeding cats, and now i realize i know NOTHING.  i feel like i don't know how to best take care of my babies

The honest reason?  Because Dr. Pierson said she didn't like it. 

  You don't have to have a grinder to feed smaller bones like chicken wing tips.  Cornish hens I use poultry scissors to cut up the carcass and my cats can eat any part of it.  But chicken wing tips are really soft and easy for bones.

Hey, I'm no expert on feeding cats either.  I just do the best I can and learn from these more experienced people.  As GoHolistic just mentioned, keeping your cats eating is what's important.

 

[stephanie42]

thanks everyone.  i'm terrified of making anything worse.  and i'm completely fed up with the whole thing, really.  vets trying to sell me overpriced crap, overcharging me for services, trying to do dental extractions without taking x-rays... and all the pet food crap.  just today, chinese jerky treats are in the news again. ugh.

 

[ldg]

Actually, we know EXACTLY what the best calcium-to-phosphorus (Ca ) ratio is, and that is a range of 1.1:1 to 1.5:1. If a kitty is prone to constipation, shoot for the lower end, because calcium is constipating. When calculating the Ca ratio, you use the amount of ELEMENTAL calcium, not the amount of "calcium." Calcium carbonate is about 40% ELEMENTAL calcium. Bone meal - you have to read the package to determine the amount of elemental calcium. If it has that information on it.

I don't like bone meal because it is made from older cows, and toxins (heavy metals) are concentrated in the bone and marrow. Most factory farms are not exactly toxin-free zones.

This is why I use eggshell and alternate with freeze dried bone (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite, MCHA) for the cats eating boneless. I have no CRF or CKD kitties. If I did, I would use only eggshell.

As to this comment "one telling me that no raw diet needs added phosphorous or bones" that is sort of correct. Meat contains phosphorus. Phosphorus certainly does not need to be supplemented if feeding meat, even without bone, the meat (and organs) alone have plenty. The primary minerals in bone are phosphorus and calcium. This is why when you create a diet for a CRF kitty, you lower the phosphorus content DRAMATICALLY by not using bone, freeze dried bone, or bone meal. All of those add phosphorus. Eggshell adds calcium, magnesium in the correct proportion to the calcium and phosphorus in the meat, trace minerals - but almost no phosphorus. Just trace amounts. But if feeding a boneless diet, calcium most definitely needs to be added, as meat and organs contain very little calcium.

Here is an article discussing fresh or ground bone alternatives in a diet: http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...n-and-how-to-use-them-in-a-raw-fed-cats-diet/ This article addresses the needs of CKD/CRF cats and why you would want to use eggshell for the source of calcium in the diet.

I personally would follow Dr. Pierson's recipe (using eggshell instead of bone), and use the correct amount of eggshell for the weight of meat and organ in the diet (for the food for my theoretical CRF cat). One VERY important aspect of feeding this diet is the digestibility. It is minimally processed, it is VERY high quality protein, you have COMPLETE control over ingredients, and these three things means it will be the easiest diet on her kidneys. Because she's stage 3, if you're able to substitute any of the meat with cooked egg white, consider doing so, up to 10% of the food. This would reduce the phosphorus load even further.

 

[stephanie42]

One VERY important aspect of feeding this diet is the digestibility. It is minimally processed, it is VERY high quality protein, you have COMPLETE control over ingredients, and these three things means it will be the easiest diet on her kidneys. Because she's stage 3, if you're able to substitute any of the meat with cooked egg white, consider doing so, up to 10% of the food. This would reduce the phosphorus load even further.

thank you so much for your post.  you explained things in a way that was easy for me to grasp.  i'm not an idiot by any means, but i feel like i've read so many things explained in different ways, some of the explained poorly, that i just can't keep everything straight.

and this last part of your post - that's exactly the point.  it is highly digestible, it is minimally processed, it is quality protein, and i have control over what she's eating.  and my other cats. 

i'm glad i have this site for support and ideas.  every other place i've posted has almost attacked me for certain ideas or questions.  

 

[ldg]

I know - I remember having my head spinning on many occasion when first approaching making my own raw diet.

I think raw feeders are like economists - talk to four of them, and you'll get at least five opinions.

Yes, the members of TCS are about solutions, not ideology. Members will most certainly disagree on things, but we "play nice," and the members of the raw (and notice it is also cooked food!) & home cooked forum go to great lengths, I think, to find the science when it exists. We prefer facts to opinion when possible.

 

[lcat4]

I was reading your thread and didn't want you to feel alone.  I have two CRF cats, one in stage 3, and one that at times creeps into stage 4, further complicated by bladder cancer and hyperthyroidism.  This one cat has also been having sub-q fluids every other day since October.  I also have two non-CRF cats.  I have been feeding raw and home cooked foods for the last two years, primarily using Alnutrin premix as the meat supplement.  I also use TC Feline as the premix supplement for my non-CRF cats (it uses freeze dried bone as the calcium source, which makes the phosphorus too high for the kidney impaired).  I keep saying I'm going to start using a recipe with individual ingredients instead of a pre-mix, but life keeps getting in the way.  And just so you know, I feed both raw (ground turkey) and cooked meats (chicken, beef, venison, elk - sometimes its cubed, sometimes pureed).

I have seen many specialist vets over the last couple years, and they are greatly impressed by the condition of my cats.  They attribute it to the good food.  In fact one internist, who is opposed to feeding raw because she's had to care for many cats who were probably fed wrong, said don't change anything, he looks great.

It sounds like you've done a lot of reading so are familiar that low phosphorus, not low protein, is the goal in feeding your cat.  Actually, the first goal is to keep the cat eating. 

When feeding meat and using the eggshell as the calcium source, I find the phosphorus % on a dry matter basis to run about .75%.  You really can't get less than that without adding carbs - rice, pumpkin, sweet potato...to reduce the meat protein, thus reducing the phosphorus.  The prescription food does just that and gets to about .5%.  Tanya's site says anything under 1% (DMB) is pretty good.

As to the question of why add pumpkin or sweet potato, other than the main purpose to reduce the phophorus in the food, I think it's considered a more neutral addition to the meal, as opposed to other carbs/fiber.  It adds the dimension of being a prebiotic, which helps digestion.  It is also "suppose" to trap the urea toxins, and then dispose of them via the feces, making less toxic buildup in the body.  One of my cats will eat it, one will not.  I stopped adding it to the food a couple months ago.  When I gave it, I added about a 1/2 tsp of organic butternut squash to 1-1/2 ounces meat when I served the food.  I would buy a can, and then divy that can into small containers that lasted a couple days.  I would then freeze those containers and defrost as needed.

I won't comment on whether your recipe is properly balanced, I know LDG referred to Mschauer for that.  But a couple points came to mind...you don't add any liver for the CKD recipe.  There are some fat soluble vitamins in the egg yolk, but I don't know if there is enough to compensate for no added liver.  I give my CKD cats about 3-4% liver and an egg yolk spread over a week.  One problem with kidney failure is the kidneys start to irratically process various nutrients, e.g., one of my cat's blood work shows high potassium, the other has high calcium.  It's my understanding that you don't want to overdo the Vit A or D, but you have to have some.  On the other hand, for the non-CKD recipe, you are adding over 10% liver to the meat.  My non-CKD cats don't get that much.

I think I better end this post before it gets too diverse.  One thing I want to say is to not be afraid to do a little bit of everything.  My one cat that also has the cancer has not been eating well, of late, and is now suffering from muscle wasting.  I keep trying to get as much of my home prepared food in him as I can, but either the texture or smell is off some days.  So I'll stir in some canned food to make it smell better, or have more gravy...whatever, so that he will eat.

Anyway, please don't think you are alone. Best wishes!

 

[stephanie42]

i definitely appreciate your input @LCat4!  my ckf cat diet is basically natascha's diet (http://tcfeline.com/2012/04/27/reduced-protein-cat-food/).  i'm using eggshell instead of calcium carbonate, small fish oil instead of salmon, and eliminated the cod liver oil because many other recipes i've seen specifically state NOT to give cats cod liver oil.  i'm planning on trying the pumpkin and butter in piglet's (ckf/ckd cat) food, but i don't know how the butter will affect the taste - she is very, very uninterested in butter now because i used to use it to hide medication in on my finger.  she caught onto that quickly :/

what made you choose the alnutrin with eggshell for your ckf/ckd kitties?

and re: liver, i was doing everything i could to avoid having to handle organs because i just, i don't know.  i eat mainly vegetarian and have handled raw meat maybe twice in the past year and a half.  the idea of handling organs is a bit much to me (my husband is very supportive of this feeding idea, even though he doesn't care to know the specifics - he trusts me.  he said he can help with the grinding and organs).  again, i've been kind of going by the published recipes i've found.  reading through the other threads, i found that USDA calculator thing and am trying to figure out how to use it to check my nutritional content.  

 

[lcat4]

Hi Stephgas,  So as to your comments about liver and cod liver oil...here's a link that discusses that.  http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-why-not-use-cod-liver-oil    Basically, because most recipes add liver, it then becomes more dangerous (high levels of vit A) if you also add cod liver oil.  I think people think fish oil (for omega 3) is the same as cod liver oil, and this link points out the differences.

One problem with Cod Liver Oil is that it can be highly processed, with the natural fat soluble vitamins processed out, and many brands then add back synthetic A and D.  Are these as bioavailable as getting the vitamins from liver?  I personally take (non-heat processed) Fermented Cod Liver Oil for my bone health for the Vitamin A and D it provides, but then I don't eat liver. There are quite a few cats in this forum that either don't like liver or don't eat it well, and they replace the fresh liver with either cod liver oil (LDG does this) or freeze dried liver.  There is a thread in the nutrition forum a while back that discussed the amount of freeze dried liver that was needed to replace the fresh liver.  Perhaps that might be an option for you.  I am not a vegetarian (although I eat lots of vegetables) and have no problem handling meat.  I get my fresh livers from a free range poultry distributer down the freeway.  They are packed in one pound tubs and I puree them as needed.  I find it easier to mix with the meat if pureed.  I have a dedicated mini mixer to deal with the raw livers and it takes about 20 minutes (while watching TV) to puree a pound and divy it into bags for freezing.

About butter, I discussesd this with my vet.  She was concerned about the digestibility.  Another person in this forum adds coconut oil to her CRF kitty's meals to add a little fat.  I've tried the coconut oil in my own cooking and I can definitely taste it, I'm not sure my cats would love it, but maybe a different brand would have less taste.  At times I've gone ahead and added a little unsalted, pasture raised butter to my cat's food, and they've eaten it.  One cat tends to say no thanks if I add too much.  I also cook up chicken breasts or steak as a snack for my cats first thing in the AM.  I cook that in the butter, and I figure it gives them some Vit K as well.  Just so you know, I weigh the chicken and add the appropriate amount of plain eggshell (I buy from Alnutrin) and taurine to the meat.  This does not make a balanced meal (and they only get a small portion anyway), but it gives them some protein that is phosphorus/calcium balanced.

Why Alnutrin?  I started the whole home prepped food process using TC Feline with Liver.  I figured it was a safe intro into home feeding.  When my stage 3 kitty first showed higher kidney values, I had to look for an alternative because of the phosphorus.  There are other premix options that don't use freeze dried bone, but this was the one I liked best that used eggshell for calcium. I was still using TC Feline (no liver) for my younger cats on a rotating basis, but ran out of the mix and haven't replaced it.  I plan to make my own using Mschauer's recipes, using MCHA.

Hope this helps.

 

[stephanie42]

i had to drive around a bit today to gather everything i needed, but i now have 4lbs of organic, free range, vegetarian fed chicken thighs (boneless), non-synthetic gelatin, all the necessary supplements, and even organs.

yup, we went to a local meat market and found not only chicken livers, but tiny chicken hearts.  they also have chicken gizzards, which i know i've read a bit about, but i didn't buy any because i'm not 100% sure how to use them lol.

i'm going to add a bit of organic pumpkin to the recipe to start, since they've not been grain-free over the past couple of months.  after reading more and learning about bone meal and calciumhos, i'm not going to make two different recipes - one recipe for all the cats.  i also bought some ice cube trays, i'm going to freeze the food in those trays and pop them out, then portion them out into freezer bags.  that way i can thaw one days' worth at a time and have an easy way to control how much i feed to each cat. 

very nervous but excited!  in a couple of hours, i'll feed my cats their first home prepared raw meal

 

[stephanie42]

took me about an hour to do it with my kitchen aid stand mixer grinder attachment.  ground up 4lbs of boneless thighs, 12oz of hearts (that's the largest packet they had), 7oz of livers - all from chicken.  baked and powdered my own eggshells, added 4 yolks (local, free roaming, organic, vegetarian fed birds).  added all the supplements and gelatin, and about 1c of pumpkin.

samantha dug right in - but she has either no sense of smell or a very limited sense of smell, so that's not surprising to me.  piglet seemed unsure at first but, after a few experimental licks, she dug in.  the surprise stand out is jake!  jake is my 16lb boy, we suspect he's part bengal due to his shape, body type, and markings (he was a feral rescued at about 3 months old).  he won't even lick at it!  i'm thinking those stinky b vitamins are the culprit.  i'm going to take some raw fresh from the fridge later and mix in a bit of the canned food we've been using to see if i can entice him.

i did it!  i even picked up the teensy chicken hearts and ground them up.  i just kept forcing myself to think of other things.  and not look at the grind coming out :x  we froze the rest of the chicken livers - i have enough left for another batch.  i think i'll be mixing up a batch a week; i have to see how this works out and adjust.  but i had been spending around $30 a week on quality canned food for all three of them; i know this will work out to less in the long run!

 

[ldg]

CONGRATULATIONS! :bigthumb:

Yeah - it gets less "icky" as time goes on.

Some cats do NOT get that raw is food right away. In fact - most older cats need help. :lol3: You have any freeze dried meat treats you can crush and powder on top of it? Or just mix a little bit into the canned for Jake - and over time, reduce the canned and increase the raw. Or try parmesan cheese, or FortiFlora....

 

[stephanie42]

i mixed about 60/40 raw/canned and he ate about half of it.  bedtime snack is in about an hour and i'm going to do the same for him again.  i can't stand the smell of the b complex.  i'm going to have to figure something else out.  that smell is haunting me; i keep asking my husband if my hands/clothes/hair smell like it.

 

[goholistic]

Kudos on the first go-around! 

i'm about 90% vegetarian and do not often cook meat in my home (once or twice a month, and that only started recently).

I forgot that I wanted to quote this and say that your 90% vegetarian lifestyle is just like mine! I don't even purchase meat to make at home (other than for the cats). But I will eat it sparingly at family gatherings and at trusted restaurants. Although I am cooking Sebastian's food, I do have to handle it raw first (and I did make raw a few times). For me, it's the smell, and the "gamier" meats usually send me into Nausea Land. The recent ground duck really did it for me. At one point, I had to wash my hands and walk away for a short time due to the smell. I have no problem with the way it looks, though.

 
i can't stand the smell of the b complex.  i'm going to have to figure something else out.  that smell is haunting me; i keep asking my husband if my hands/clothes/hair smell like it.

LOL.  

  It does smell bad. It's like super-potent-multivitamin-smell-meets-hospital-smell. I wonder if they're all like that. The one I have is Solgar B-Complex 100 capsules (human grade).

 

[stephanie42]

 
Kudos on the first go-around! 

I forgot that I wanted to quote this and say that your 90% vegetarian lifestyle is just like mine! I don't even purchase meat to make at home (other than for the cats). But I will eat it sparingly at family gatherings and at trusted restaurants. Although I am cooking Sebastian's food, I do have to handle it raw first (and I did make raw a few times). For me, it's the smell, and the "gamier" meats usually send me into Nausea Land. The recent ground duck really did it for me. At one point, I had to wash my hands and walk away for a short time due to the smell. I have no problem with the way it looks, though.

LOL.  

  It does smell bad. It's like super-potent-multivitamin-smell-meets-hospital-smell. I wonder if they're all like that. The one I have is Solgar B-Complex 100 capsules (human grade).

same here!  i cooked pot roast at my husband's absolute insistence a couple of times in the past 16 months, and my father refused to come christmas morning if i did not have bacon  but that's the only raw meat that's come into my home until yesterday in those past 16 months!

i just used my hubby's b complex (he takes it regularly), and i think that was a mistake.  someone said that jarrow b-right has little to no odor.  i'm seriously considering ordering it and using it in my next batch.  not only does the smell of the b complex turn me off, but i think that might have something to do with jake's avoidance.  i gave him 50/50 raw and nature's variety instinct duck, which is stinky, and he ate it - but my hubby said he looked sad when he was resting after breakfast.  i'll be heading to the pet store today to pick up some more stinky canned food to continue transitioning him.