Feeding Raw to the Kittens!

[avalyn]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the forum - though I've been reading the threads here for some time! Glad to make all your e-acquaintance!

I've been feeding a raw diet to my kitties for about half a year now, and had initially started out with Big Dog BARF (they were mad for kangaroo, who would've thought?), before deciding to go with a pre-mix and make my own food for them. I'm currently using Better in the Raw, which they all seem to love - and the good thing is that the kitties don't like ground meat, so I just dice the meat up for them to gnaw on.

I'd love to try other brands like Alnutrin or Feline Instincts, but the problem is that I'm located in Singapore, and all these other manufacturers have either said they can't ship to Singapore, or have incredibly prohibitive shipping rates (many times over how much Better in the Raw costs). 

I've considered going Frankenprey style, but my finicky cats are not fond of big chunks of meat (lazy felines!) nor are all of them keen on bones. 

I'm wondering what you folks think of Big Dog and Better in the Raw, and if anyone has tips as to how I can transition my cats to Frankenprey given their preferences. I'm pretty new to all this, and being in Singapore doesn't help - not many manufacturers would ship here.

All that aside - I'm excited to be here and can't wait to learn more about kitty nutrition and health from everyone! xoxo

 

[Willowy]

There are some people here who feed PMR ("Frankenprey") style but supplement calcium instead of feeding bones, so that could be an option for you (you can certainly dice the meat when feeding PMR, too!). I'm sure they'll be in soon to help out.

 

[avalyn]

Thanks, Willowy! I'd wondered about that but didn't know if that might affect the calcium : phosphorus ratio adversely. Let's see if anyone else can offer his/her experience feeding in this manner then - fingers crossed!

 

[Willowy]

One member has a spreadsheet all made up about how much eggshell powder (the easiest kind of calcium to acquire) to use for muscle meat and organs to balance the phosphorus. If you look around at past threads you could probably find her formula (her screen name is LDG). But she's without power/internet right now because of the hurricane so it might be a while before she can answer directly. Carolina also feeds her cats Frankenprey with supplemented calcium.

 

[avalyn]

Oooh, thanks for the tip, Willowy! Will go hunt down LDG's spreadsheet now!

 

[avalyn]

Found the thread! 

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241582/boneless-frankerprey-anyone-does-this

Thanks, Willowy!

And please, LDG, keep warm and safe! Hope all's well despite the hurricane!

 

[ldg]

Thanks! We have a generator, but because the feral kitties we care for take refuge under our home, we only run it for a few hours a day. Looks like we'll be without power for a while. (Last year in the hurricane it was like 11 or 12 days. Yesterday, 62% of our state was without power, so this one may be longer!)

Anyway - just bear in mind that the initial tables in that thread were wrong. Basically, if you use 1/32 teaspoon per ounce for meat, and 3/64 teaspoon per ounce for secreting organs (liver, kidney, spleen), you'll have a calciumhosphorus ratio of about 1.3:1 over time. :nod: I expect you can find mini measuring spoons somewhere - these are the ones I use (doubt shipping would be worth it to Singapore, but something similar probably exists):
If you find a mini measuring spoon set, just measure out a teaspoon of something like salt, and see how many of the smallest spoons it takes to make that teaspoon. For this set, the "Drop" is 1/64 of a teaspoon, and the "Smidgen" is 1/32. I don't feed organs all at one meal (actually that makes most cats sick). Most people feeding liver or kidney provide them as 50% of the meal twice a week or so (whatever works out to around 5% of the weekly diet, then divide that amount into a couple of meals to combine with meat for a full meal). For the organ meals, when I was feeding 1.5 ounces per meal, and the meal was 1 ounce of meat, and 0.5oz of liver or kidney, I'd use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder and 1.5 teaspoons of the 1/64.

FYI, my cats don't eat chunks - well, a couple do. But for one, I basically mince the meat. I use shears instead of knives - I find it easier. I just cut it up very small. :lol3:

You can give a treat of one or two canned sardines (no salt, packed in water) a couple of times a week; you can also give raw egg yolk once or twice a week. The egg yolk and sardines are not a meal, but in addition to meals (like a snack. ). Both are packed with nutrition, and help provide omega 3s. This is probably a good idea even with the food you're making now, though I don't know the recipe you're using. :dk: But these are a good idea even when feeding commercial raw foods. :nod:

I add taurine, though there's probably enough in the meat. Cats need 200mg daily (roughly) - some provide that amount, because it's not a supplement that can create toxicity.

Unfortunately, my internet connection isn't so good, so I can't really look up the supplements you're using. But if the premix has taurine, Vitamin E, and maybe choline, D, or manganese, maybe some iodine.... I would imagine it's OK! If they like the food you're making for them, there may be no reason to switch.... or you can just add in some homemade "boneless frankenprey" meals.


Oh - to make your own eggshell powder: http://holisticat.com/esp.html

 

[avalyn]

YIKES! I do hope all's manageable, LDG! Stay safe and well, k? And I'm sending virtual tummy tickles and cuddles to your kitties too <3

Thanks for the tip about measuring spoons! I should be able to find something similar to the one you'd posted here. I've been reading the thread with the tables and am still a little confused about the difference between eggshell powder and calcium hydroxyapatite... and calcium carbonate, which I see listed in a number of recipes available online. What was your reason for preferring eggshell powder over the rest of the options?

Ahhh, the canned sardines was a tough one here - I can't find any canned sardines packed just in water. All of them come in tomato sauce or olive oil, so that's a little frustrating. I did read elsewhere that feeding salmon once a week may be a good idea for omega 3s. Have you tried that? My cats all seem resistant to try egg yolk for some inexplicable reason! 

Yep, I add taurine, even over and above the Better in the Raw mix, since it somewhat degrades - as I understand - when frozen (?). It's water soluble anyway, so better to err with more taurine than not. 

Here's the nutritional analysis and ingredients in Better in the Raw - 

Ingredients: Egg yolk, calcium lactate, liver powder, gelatin, whey protein concentrate, psyllium husks, EFA from fish, taurine, kelp, barley grass powder, Vitamin B complex, Vitamin E succinate.

Nutritional Analysis: Based on “as fed” mixed food including ground chicken meat. Average daily meal size: ¼ lb. (120g)

Energy/Kcal 133

Protein 17.29%

Carbohydrates 1.2%

Fat 6.0%

Ash 3.19%

Calcium 231mg

Phosphorous 224mg

Magnesium 74mg

Sodium 144mg

Potassium 201mg


It seems like a good Calcium/Phosphorus ratio to me... but what do you reckon?

I tried offering some pork liver last night as a treat - BIG MISTAKE, because they ended up miaowing for more pork liver and rejecting their usual raw meat mix! (Happy mistake, I guess )

 

[ldg]

Yeah, I like the ingredients in the premix! :nod:

So the analysis of the premix INCLUDES the 1/4 pound of meat fed? Just making sure, because the calcium is needed to balance the phosphorus in the meat. :nod:

Yeah- forms of calcium.

IF I am remembering correctly, eggshell is about 95% calcium carbonate, which is 39% elemental calcium. When figuring the Ca ratio, what you need is the amount of elemental calcium in whatever supplement is chosen.

I prefer the MCHA - microcrystalline hydroxyapatite - because it is freeze dried bone. Being in Singapore, you may actually be able to source this, as the source is New Zealand. Most human calcium supplements that tout calcium hydroxyapatite have other stuff added to them though, so check ingredients carefully. If I were feeding one or two cats, I'd use this. But I'm feeding 8, and it just costs to much to use. So I actually alternate weekly between MCHA and eggshell.

For eggshell, if you make homemade and add the calcium at the time of the meal, you just add 1/32 teaspoon per oz of meat and 3/64 per ounce of organ.

For MCHA, if you have capsules that are "just" calcium hydroxyapatite, when doing the calculations, you have to bear in mind that bone has both elemental calcium AND phosphorus in them. The MCHA I have access to, made by NOW, has 1,000mg of elemental calcium per serving and 500mg of phosphorus per serving, and a "serving" is four capsules. So if you find a capsule that has 250mg of calcium hydroxyapatite, the same as the type I'm using, you would use 1/2 capsule per ounce of meat, and 3/4 - 1 capsule per ounce of organ.

Does that help?

 

[avalyn]

You are a dream, Laurie! Thank you so much for all that explanation about eggshell powder and MCHA! I'll see if I can find the latter here in Singapore. Eggshell powder would be hard to source for - I'm vegan myself so there aren't any eggs at home to begin with! 

Thanks as well for the reassurance about Better in the Raw! Yep, the premix's nutritional analysis includes about 1/4 pound of meat (i.e. average of 1 serving for a cat a day). With the meat, it does seem like the premix is well balanced and resembles Dr Pierson's formula - except this one uses kelp instead of iodized salt, I think?

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Hope the electricity's coming back over at yours![/font]

 

[ldg]

Since those numbers with the premix include the meat, then yes, the Ca ratio looks good! :nod: I shoot for a Ca of 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 myself, and at 1.0:1, you need to make sure you do use enough of it, because long term, calcium is one of those things you just don't want to be short on. But yeah, it does look a lot like Dr. Pierson's recipe!

We have another vegan feeding raw to her kitties on TCS: wolcar.

 

[avalyn]

I feel so much more reassured hearing that, Laurie I do add a little more taurine to the pre-mix, and have been also toying with the idea of adding just the teensiest bit more calcium in it too. I might give it a shot. (Watching the kitties' poop on this one to make sure there's not *too* much calcium - for now, they'e all nicely formed, but hey, a bit more calcium won't hurt in the longer run, I'm sure!)

Ahhhhh, wolcar's a vegan too? It's always lovely to meet another vegan feeding raw! I only know one other vegan who feeds her cats and dogs a raw diet (she's not on the forum). It was a little challenging initially having to deal with meat - a vegan at the butcher's almost sounds like the beginning of a joke, for one... - but I've gotten used to it. I do however make sure I get free range, antibiotic-free and hormone-free meat as far as possible. It's the least a vegan feeding her cats a species-appropriate diet can do!

 

[avalyn]

Right, so I've been toying with going PMR sans bones (supplementing it with eggshell powder instead)... but for some odd reason, my cats are refusing hearts and gizzards, and only a few would even bother with liver. I'd have thought they'd jump for these... anyone else had any experience with cats refusing organs?

 

[ldg]

Yep.

Sheldon cannot keep down liver or kidney. He did try eating it at first.
Tuxedo cannot keep down liver, but loves kidney.
Spooky and Lazlo HATE both liver and kidney.

I tried cutting up the organs into smaller than bite-sized pieces, completely coating them in crushed up freeze dried chicken. This got the organs down most of them - but with Tuxedo and liver, and Sheldon and both liver and kidney, the meal came right back up.

After struggling for several months, I started giving them freeze dried liver instead of raw liver - they like it, and it stays down.

I just recently altered my approach. I was balancing their meals (meat/organs) over a week, which meant I fed three meals a week with meat and liver, and three meals a week with meat and kidney. (You already know, but for anyone else reading this thread, each meal I balance with a calcium supplement, I don't use bones). 10 months into raw feeding, I thought maybe Sheldon and Tuxedo could keep down those organs if the amount was smaller. So now I take that 5% liver and instead of splitting it into three meals, I divide it into 7 meals - so they get literally three bites of liver at one meal a day, and same for kidney; they get a second meal daily with a couple of bites of kidney in it. I feed three meals a day, so they get one meal a day with no organ in it.

This usually works, but Tuxedo now won't eat the liver (even when coated in his beloved freeze dried chicken ), and Shel is back to throwing up the liver - and kidney is still iffy. Well - I can't have him not keeping his meals down!

So for Spooky, Lazlo, and Sheldon, I'm using ONLY liver as the organ - and I allocate 10%, since they're not getting a second organ. And I'm using freeze dried raw liver. For Tuxedo, he gets his kidney, which he loves, and he gets his 5% liver in freeze dried form.

Here's a thread discussing the freeze dried option: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

...and I've just found a small company in Canada that ships to the U.S. that has freeze dried spleen, so I may have another freeze dried option.

I don't know what you'll be able to source there.

In the meantime, you can try feeding just a VERY small amount of liver, and completely coat it in crushed or powdered something - are there freeze dried meat treats there?

As to the hearts and gizzards. My cats ALL love hearts, so no suggestion there. They're not an essential component of a raw diet, but they are packed with nutrition, especially taurine. The gizzards are also not an essential component of a raw diet - and they're not nutrient dense. VERY low calorie, in fact. But if you feed boneless, they are very chewy and gritty, so really good for their teeth. What you may want to consider is just putting a small slice of gizzard or heart in with a number of meals - let them get used to it being there, and maybe eventually they'll try it? Or again, use the "topper" method of coating it with something.... but just start small, and use repetition.

 

[avalyn]

Freeze-dried stuff! Oh goodness me, I never even considered that option - so thank you so much for suggesting that! (And I'm relieved to know my cats aren't the only ones who decide to go on strike each time they see liver/kidney in their dishes....) Right, I'm going to try hunting down freeze-dried options now. Thank you so much for this, Laurie! You've been a tremendous help 

 

[ldg]

Let us know how it goes! :cross:

 

[avalyn]

Hello Laurie and everyone else!

Update: So I've pretty much been able to convert all the kitties to raw using the Better in the Raw premix. I'm now looking at slowly converting them to Alnutrin though because I've heard such positive reviews on the forum! However, Alnutrin requires that I use raw liver - and my cats, for some reason, absolutely refuse to eat raw liver. Sigh. 

I thought of using NOW Beef Liver Powder as a substitute, but I'm not sure how much to add to Alnutrin...

Does anyone have any experience using liver powder as a substitute with your premixes for raw meat? 

 

[ldg]

That's great!

Well, that's probably a really expensive way of doing it (the NOW freeze dried liver powder). Are there other freeze dried liver treat options, maybe? :dk:

Here's the formula for calculating how much freeze dried liver you'd need to give in place of fresh liver: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

If they're eating no fresh organs, you need to feed the equivalent of 10% fresh liver (unless they're eating raw kidney or some other organ. The rule of thumb, again, is 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ (kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain....). Hearts and gizzards are not secreting organs, so they're treated like muscle meat. Using boneless, and only liver, it would be 90% meat, calcium supplement, and 10% liver. But sardines - or some type of fish oil (preferably salmon oil or krill oil) and egg yolks are important, because they need the vitamin D which isn't in the meat or organs.

 

[avalyn]

Laurie. honestly couldn't have done with without all the encouragement from the forum and most of all, your tips! 

Yeah, the liver powder is going to cost more than I like but there's little choice since the kitties are all finicky and detest organs in general. I tried to look for freeze-dried liver here to no avail. I'll keep looking though but for now, the powder will have to be the best substitute there is. Marta from Alnutrin was immensely helpful and provided me with a lot of information on how I can incorporate it to the recipe for Alnutrin thoug - I'm very grateful for that. 

About krill oil, are your cats fond of it? I've never tried it but should do that soon. For some reasons, my cats didn't care much for fish oils when I offered that previously... 

 

[ldg]

No, my cats don't like the krill oil. :lol3: Carolina's prefer the krill to salmon oil - mine like salmon oil. :dk: I can't afford to feed 8 cats krill oil, so the kitties that have the more serious health issues, I give the krill. I just pill them with the little capsule!

And if powdered beef liver is what you can find, then that's what will have to do for now! It's got the vitamin A they need. You'll have to weigh it to figure out how much to feed - the link to the calculator in the post above should be what you need. :nod: