Declaw or no cat!

[ldg]

Mitch, kudos to you for asking the question, and then sticking out the discussion despite many of us saying what you don't want to hear. I don't know if you've taken the suggestions to read up on the links provided, but I just wanted to address a few things.

First of all, this post:

Originally Posted by Cat Person

...Some of you will say that declawed cats spray/pee in inappropriate places more. I have never seen any statistics to prove that. I also have never seen a rescue/foster cat do that. Hence I am not convinced of it on a personal level.

Now some of you will say a declawed cat bites more. I think that is only true due to the fact people "press there luck" more with the cat that is declawed and then get bitten. But I do not think the cat actually bites more. I just think people take "liberties" that they would not if that cat has claws.

*** I know some of you will jump down my throat but you will not be getting a rise out of me :

***

I'd like to provide those statistics.

At GoodCatsWearBlack.com:
http://www.goodcatswearblack.com/dec..._declawing.htm

* Declawing is an amputation of the cat’s toes to the first knuckle of each joint. Declawing removes claw, bone, tendon, and ligament.

* A study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (“Risk factors for relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter”, by Patronek, Glickman, Beck, et al., JAVMA, 1996:209:582-588) found that declawed cats were at an increased risk of relinquishment to animal shelters. Among relinquished cats, 52.4% of declawed cats were reported to exhibit litter box avoidance, compared to 29.1% of non-declawed cats.

* From CourierPostOnline.com, February 1, 2003: “Eighty percent of the cats that are surrendered that are declawed are euthanized because they have a behavioral problem. . . . Declawed cats frequently become biters and also stop using litter boxes . . . one or the other.” —William Lombardi, shelter director, Gloucester County, New Jersey.

* A study of 163 cats that underwent onychectomy (declawing), published in the July/August 1994 Journal of Veterinary Surgery, showed that 50 percent suffered from immediate postoperative complications such as pain, hemorrhage, and lameness; long-term complications, including prolonged lameness, were found in nearly 20 percent of the 121 cats who were followed up in the study.

* A study published in the January 2001 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (JAVMA) found that 31 percent of 39 cats that underwent onychectomy or tendonectomy developed at least one behavior change immediately after surgery, with the most common problems being litter box problems and biting.

* A national survey of shelters from the Caddo Parrish Forgotten Felines and Friends indicates that approximately 70 percent of cats turned in to shelters for behavioral problems are declawed.

* From the Summer 2002 issue of PETA’s Animal Times: “A survey by a Delaware animal shelter showed that more than 75 percent of the cats turned in for avoiding their litter boxes had been declawed.”

* According to a study published in the October 2001 issue of JAVMA by Dr. Gary J. Patronek, VMD, PhD, “declawed cats were at an increased risk of relinquishment.”

* In three years of experience as a cat owner consultant, Annie Bruce (author of Cat Be Good) received 95% of calls about declawed cats related to litter box problems, as opposed to only 46% of calls about clawed cats—and most of those were older cats with physical ailments. Only declawed cats cost their owners security deposits, leather sofas, and floorboards. And it’s mostly declawed cats that have been prescribed painkillers, antidepressants, tranquilizers, and steroids.

* Declawing is illegal or considered inhumane in many countries, including Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Norway, Austria, Scotland, Wales, and Portugal. In 2009, eight California cities, including Los Angeles and San Francisco outlawed declawing.

Further, from my own research:

Yeon SC, Flanders JA, Scarlett JM, et al. Attitudes of owners regarding tendonectomy and onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;218:43-47:

Summary: Retrospective phone follow-up of teaching hospital clients, DVM student surgeons. 39/98 owners whose cats underwent elective onychectomy or tendonectomy were contacted two months to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery. 17 (44%) of declawed cats returned to normal within three days, 35 (90%) within two weeks. 31 (80%) had more than one medical complication. 13 (33%) developed at least one behavior problem. 6 (15.4%) would not use the litter box and 7 (17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity.

And this:

Patronek, GJ, Glickman LT, Beck AM, et al. Risk factors for relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996;209:582–588

Summary: Case-control study of owned and relinquished cats involving a random digit dial survey of cat owners. Prevalence of declawing was 45% (476/1056) in the owned cat population. In the univariate analysis, declawed cats were at decreased risk of relinquishment compared to non-declawed cats (OR=0.63; 95% CI 0.45-0.87). After adjustment in a multivariate model, declawed cats were at an increased risk of relinquishment (OR=1.89;1.00-3.58); this reversal made the effect of declawing difficult to interpret. Among 218 cats relinquished to a shelter, more (44/84; 52.4%) declawed cats than non-declawed cats (39/134; 29.1%) were reported by owners to have inappropriate elimination (p=0.022).

More:

Landsberg GM. Cat owners’ attitudes toward declawing. Anthrozoos 1991;4:192-197.

Summary: Retrospective mail survey of veterinarians. 320/400 returned questionnaires. 196/250 (78.4%) did not advocate declawing and only did it on request. 104/221(47%) veterinarians' recollections indicated no problems, 55 (24.9%) reported nail regrowth, and 22 (9.9%) reported additional long term problems.

Several members of TCS had cats with nail regrowth problems. This is one of them: Bea begs you never to declaw!

 

[ldg]

As to the discussion about spaying/neutering vs. declawing, this was discussed in another thread. Here was my take on the situation:

Declaw Surgery

Health Benefits of Declaw Surgery
None

Health Risks of Declaw Surgery
Lameness/Arthritis
Claw regrowth
Infection

Behavior Benefits of Declaw Surgery
Cats can no longer scratch humans or damage walls, furniture or accessories

Behavior Risks of Declaw Surgery
Litter box avoidance
Increased aggression (biting)

Other Risks/Benefits of Declaw Surgery

Other benefits: None.

Other risks: It should be noted that in a study published in JAVMA (referenced before), cats subject to declaw were at increased risk for relinquishment to a shelter for behavior problems (54%) vs. non-declawed cats (29%).

Alternatives to Declawing
Training
Nail caps

******************************

Spay/Neuter Surgery

Health Benefits of Neutering
Decreased risk of tumors
Decreased risk of pyometra
Decreased risk of several types of cancer
Decreased risk of communicable diseases, including FIV, FeLV and FIP due to decrease in aggression due to lack of sex drive and territoriality
Decreased risk of wounds/wound abscesses & etc.

Health Risks of Neutering
Infection
I'd be happy to include increased incidence of UTIs if you can provide reference to a study published in a peer-review journal
Obesity although important to note the problem is not a change in metabolism, so it can be controlled by cat guardians

Behavior Benefits of Neutering
Decreased aggression
Decreased territoriality/decreased roaming (and thus most stop spraying to mark territory)
Cats stop yowling when in heat or when hormones push them to want a female

Behavior Risks of Neutering
Are there any?

Other Risks/Benefits of Neutering

Other Risks: None

Other Benefits: Inability to procreate lowers unintended breeding, resulting in lowered homeless cat population, which in turn results in lower costs of sheltering, euthanization, and animal control.

Alternative to Neutering
None

***************************************

Humans can choose to use birth control. Cats cannot.

I count

1 benefit to declawing
6 risks to declawing
2 alternatives to declawing

At least 9 benefits to spaying/neutering
2 risks (potentially 3, and one can be controlled by a caring owner) to neutering
No alternatives to neutering

It does not boil down to just an issue of morals, as can be seen from the lists. Spaying and neutering benefits the cat, the cat population, and the community. Declawing only benefits the owner.

 

[ducman69]

I am bothered by some of the misinformation, regardless of the fact that training has not been exhausted so it is a completely moot point. The OP has many months available to train the cat, and only upon exhausting all options would it even be a question, although I would wager the OP has been driven off by now.

Cats do not bear weight on the dystal phalanx, the short rotating bone that supports the claw. It is a very small bone that serves no purpose other than to provide a foundation for the claw to grow and support for it to extend and not rotate, and is retracted during normal locomotion and thus does not cause a cat to change its natural gate. As such, it does NOT cause lameness or arthritis under a routine declaw, barring some sort of complication from the surgery.

And yes, any surgery does carry risks, just as we have seen kittens on this forum that went in for spay/neuter only to come out deaf or blind. A vasectomy is a far less invasive procedure for a cat, however, it does not correct the foul urine smell, spraying, or behavioral issues with yowling looking for a mate and humping. Genital mutilation is thus done for human benefit, but a happy human is necessary for a happy cat in my opinion, as the caregiver is not as apt to show love, affection, and great care to provide the cat with a luxurious lifestyle if they are at odds and fighting. The health repurcussions were also greatly biased in favor of the positive attributes, but we know of far more negative in humans and other mammals and the list is too long to transcribe in this post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutering#Disadvantages

Approximately 25% of cats in North America are declawed, declawed cats are on average held longer by most shelters, and yet a five minute search on Petfinder.com in your area is proof positive that the statistics in that study regarding surrendered declawed cats are nonsense. According to those statistics, since declawed cats are more apt to be surrendered, and they represent one in four cats, you should see at least one in four perhaps one in three. However, the results for Houston are 66 results for declawed out of 3209 cats, a tiny fraction. The overwhelming majority of declawed cats get the procedure before their first birthday, and yet of those 66 results, none are kittens and six are classed as young but appear full size, meaning that their relinquishments were years later and not likely due to issues with the procedure.

In a study of over 850 cats, declawed cats were no more likely to bite, than clawed cats.4 In a study of 276 cat owners, declawing successfully met or surpassed the owner’s expectations in all cases.1 There was 96% owner satisfaction at the time of the study (up from 81% prior to surgery) and over 70% of cat owners indicated that there was an improvement in the cat-owner relationship.1 In a study of veterinarians in Ontario, it was estimated that over 50% of owners of declawed cats would not have owned or kept their cats, had they not been declawed.2 This is consistent with studies that have examined the factors associated with the reasons for surrendering a cat to an animal shelter , in which behavior problems (including scratching) were a major reason for surrender,7 while being declawed decreased the risk of relinquishment.6

1. Landsberg G. Cat owners’ attitudes toward declawing. Anthrozoos, 4:3, p. 192, 1991
2. Landsberg G. Declawing is controversial but still saves pets, a veterinarian survey. Veterinary Forum, September 1991
3. Bennett M, Houpt KA, Erb HN: Effects of declawing on feline behavior. Comp Animal Pract 2:7, 1988
4. Borchelt PL, Voith VL. Aggressive behavior in cats. Compend Contin Educ Vet Pract 1;9, p. 49, 1987
5. Morgan M, Houpt KA. Feline behavior problems. The influence of declawing. Anthrozoos, 3:1, p. 50, 1989
6. Patronek GJ, Glickman LT, Beck AM, et al. Risk factors for relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc, vol. 209, 3, 582-588, 1996
7. Miller DD, Staats SR, Partlo C, Rada K. Factors associated with the decision to surrender a pet to an surrender a pet to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc, 209, 4, 738-742, 1996

Cliffs Notes: You can't untrain sexual behavior, and although more invasive surgery, few would be willing to tolerate the destructive qualities of an intact but fixed cat. You can train proper clawing surfaces, but this is not always successful, and a cat that does not take to training is likely to be relinquished and will have very little chance of being adopted back out for known destructive behavior. I believe it was Juliel just last week that had already tried three pages of recommendations without success, so clearly typical training techniques do not have a 100% flawless success rate. Hence the recommendation on various training techniques and soft-paws, and if everything fails, then IMO a declawed cat living a life of luxury is still far better off than a cat that is stuck in a cage for months before being sent to the back for destruction as the majority of cats are, or living as a stray succumbing to fleas and worms and eating scraps and on average only living a few harsh years.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

then IMO a declawed cat living a life of luxury is still far better off than a cat that is stuck in a cage for months before being sent to the back for destruction as the majority of cats are, or living as a stray succumbing to fleas and worms and eating scraps and on average only living a few harsh years.

Ducman69, You do understand the OP is NOT getting a kitten from a shelter, so your statement does NOT apply, nor he is getting a stray, right?
He is getting a kitten from a farm, where the owners have other possibilities for - families where this kitten could have a great life, and NOT be declawed. He could simply live in the farm as a barn cat - you do understand the difference in between a barn cat and a stray, right?
The kitten he is getting will not live a life in a cage or as an stray (asof now)- HOWEVER: If he gets it, declaws and his parents abandon it, guess what? then it will! That, is our point

3- I will get the cat on July 17th (I know it will only be 8 weeks old and I have heard you should wait longer be the owner of the farm says she has given away countless kittens to friends and family and says never once has there been a problem with them being a little younger)

 

[ducman69]

That is a good point and I understand what you are saying, but if you step back and look at it from a macro-perspective, its moot. If the cat is adopted by another family that was going to adopt a cat from somewhere regardless, and the OP is convinced against adoption, you have one less cat from those born this year homed. Less homed cats means more strays/euthanizations.

I also knew very little about cats when I adopted my two (food goes in the front end/ poop comes out the back is about as much as I knew), but when greeted with a friendly attitude can be learned like anything else, and even if a few mistakes are made, its better than the alternative IMO. Perfection isn't necessary.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

That is a good point and I understand what you are saying, but if you step back and look at it from a macro-perspective, its moot. If the cat is adopted by another family that was going to adopt a cat from somewhere regardless, and the OP is convinced against adoption, you have one less cat from those born this year homed. Less homed cats means more strays/euthanizations.

I also knew very little about cats when I adopted my two (food goes in the front end/ poop comes out the back is about as much as I knew), but when greeted with a friendly attitude can be learned like anything else, and even if a few mistakes are made, its better than the alternative IMO. Perfection isn't necessary.

Ducman, we are not talking about a macro-perspective... we are talking about the OP's case.... That is the case being discussed... That is the kitten in hand.... That is the family in hand, the situation in hand...
We can make this thread an IMO thread and go on forever... But the OP came here for advice on his situation, not to philosophy on on a broader matter.
So, IMHO if we concentrate on his situation, we can get somewhere.
There is a real kitten - one that is already chosen, in an specific situation, with other real possibilities.... IMHO we should look at that. This kitten HAS other possibilities - other families where it could have a great life. The OP can adopt from a shelter - an already declawed cat... Is it time to adopt? Let's look at the OP's situation IMHO and not make this an IMO thread.

 

[violet]

Carolina, I whole-heartedly agree with everything you're saying and I applaud you and thank you for your posts.

Ducman 69, we had a declawed cat who required a special setup for her litter box for the last seven years of her life. (She lived to be 17). So, please, I'm begging you, don't try to turn this discussion into a philosophycal argument, or whatever such argument should be called. For those of us who have dealt with the effects of declawing such arguments have no meaning.
And this thread is about trying to do everything we possibly can to save a poor innocent kitten from being declawed.

 

[katachtig]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Cats do not bear weight on the dystal phalanx, the short rotating bone that supports the claw. It is a very small bone that serves no purpose other than to provide a foundation for the claw to grow and support for it to extend and not rotate, and is retracted during normal locomotion and thus does not cause a cat to change its natural gate. As such, it does NOT cause lameness or arthritis under a routine declaw, barring some sort of complication from the surgery.

From my personal experience, declawing can cause a change in gait. My first cat was declawed and she definitely walked more tentatively than my husband's cat who wasn't declawed. And it did get worse as she grew older.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Approximately 25% of cats in North America are declawed, declawed cats are on average held longer by most shelters, and yet a five minute search on Petfinder.com in your area is proof positive that the statistics in that study regarding surrendered declawed cats are nonsense. According to those statistics, since declawed cats are more apt to be surrendered, and they represent one in four cats, you should see at least one in four perhaps one in three. However, the results for Houston are 66 results for declawed out of 3209 cats, a tiny fraction. The overwhelming majority of declawed cats get the procedure before their first birthday, and yet of those 66 results, none are kittens and six are classed as young but appear full size, meaning that their relinquishments were years later and not likely due to issues with the procedure.

The cats in this sampling are ones that are adoptable. How many were relinquished but euthanized? Or how many were just dumped to fend on their own?

 

[katachtig]

Since the topic of this thread is declawing, I would like to remind everyone the rules of the site:

This website considers declawing a drastic way to curb cat behavior. A painful ordeal for your kitty we would suggest that declawing never be considered for any behavioral issue. Health issues are entirely different. It is up to you as a responsible pet owner to explore all the different options available instead of declawing. Your cat is dependent on you to make wise choices for her, and not put her into any more stress or discomfort. Please be a responsible pet owner and research this subject thoroughly. Understand that if you are pro-declaw in your posts, you will encounter opposition. Please learn more about alternatives for declawing here in our forums as well as on our website itself. Declaw - More than Just a Manicure. Hopefully those of you with claw-related problems will find solutions by spending time in our Behavior Forum.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by katachtig

The cats in this sampling are ones that are adoptable. How many were relinquished but euthanized? Or how many were just dumped to fend on their own?

Those statistics are unavailable, but lack of evidence is not evidence. I know that declawed cats are considered desirable by my local shelters as they don't get many and there are frequently specific requests for any available declawed cats for those that want the lack of damage without any of the anti-DC guilt tripping, expense, or hassle. The study posted of nearly a thousand cats demonstrated no propensity for behavioral changes of declawed cats compared to the sample group. If there aren't inherent behavior changes, there are next to no adoptable declawed cats in shelters, and of those few are too old to have likely been recent declaws, it is logical those few were surrendered for the same reason as all the other cats... rental issues, health, finances, inappropriate elimination following UTI, etc.

Originally Posted by katachtig

From my personal experience, declawing can cause a change in gait.

I don't doubt you, but from my personal experience I know of several declawed cats that walk, run, and jump normally. Thus a change in gate and arthritis accompanying that are not inherent to the procedure. And that is again assuming that this cat couldn't be trained, making the issue entirely moot.

In any case, the OP has been successfully scared off, and one less cat out of the pool of newborns this year is without a home and will be caged facing the needle or out in the wild fending for its life. It may not be this cat, but it will be -A- cat. I know everyone here just wants the best for kitties and don't hold any ill will towards those with different beliefs, but I don't personally agree w/ the response. Oh well, whats done is done.

 

[sarahp]

I think everyone has had a chance to say their bit, and mitch has received plenty of information, so I will close the thread.

mitch - good luck with your new kitty, and if you need further ideas with training your kitty, or any other questions in general, please do hang around and ask. Most of us have been through the kitten stage, and have plenty of helpful advice