Could Use Some Advice With Raw Feeding

[coffeeharlot]

Hey! New here and could use some sage wisdom and advice. Apologies for the wall of text, but the devil is in the details, right?

I have a 9mo old shelter kitty, Zaza, who I'm having issues with while getting her onto raw. It's not a matter of wanting to eat it, she adores the stuff; the problem is keeping it down recently.

Within a week of her coming home from the shelter, I transitioned her to canned food no problem. Approximately a month ago, I decided to give Dr. Pierson's recipe a try. I started Z out on just a few small chunks of chicken thigh in with her canned, then by itself, and eventually went full hog and bought all the supplements and made her a full batch of food. She did gloriously for the 3 weeks that batch lasted her. Always cleaned her plate, always excited about her food, etc. When she ran out, I sprung for the fancy Whole Foods Step 2 chicken for the next batch. That's when the issues began...

Within 2 hours of her first meal of the new batch, she vomited pretty violently. I thought maybe she had just eaten too fast or something, so I gave her a couple of hours and then gave her some more food. Everything was fine for the rest of the day until her last meal, when she vomited half an hour after eating. The next day, breakfast went okay, but she vomited lunch and then dinner was fine. I got freaked out and ran her to the vet. He gave her the all clear, admonished me for feeding raw, and said to just switch her back to canned if I'm not going to feed kibble. There was no rhyme or reason I can figure to her episodes: I froze portions in ice cube trays and everything was coming from the same batch, same tray, same bag, prepared and served the same way (heated in warm water, in her favorite low sided dish on her place mat) and at roughly the same times, 7am, 5pm, 11pm. Since there was nothing physically wrong with her, I figured maybe something was wrong with the mix and since I had added another capsule of fish oil to that batch, I placed all the blame on myself. She started avoiding the plate all together, so I just switched her back to canned until yesterday.

I made a new batch, different store brand (which now I'm thinking has entirely too much sodium?? I totally missed the added solution bit on the pack) and I even talked with the meat department who told me that the delivery had literally just come in within the past hour or so, but everything else is exactly like the first batch. I gave her roughly a teaspoon in with 1oz of canned (her normal amount is about 1.5oz/meal). She threw up within 2 hours of the first meal again. Tried a 1/4tsp raw all on its own, and she threw up within half an hour. Ran her back to the vet, he says she's fine, "maybe she's just not made for this raw stuff," and switch her back to canned. I swear I'd take her to another vet, but I live in an area where it'd cost me almost $200 just to get in the door for the majority of them and I can't afford that.

So, other than the possible sodium issue with this batch --which wasn't an issue for the fancy pants Whole Foods chicken thighs -- can anyone shed a little light on what might be going on? She's eaten chicken flavored everything since day one, and I always stuck to poultry flavors with her canned foods, so I'm not understanding how it could be an allergic reaction or anything. While she does bolt her food, she does this with everything I give her, so I'm not sure why she doesn't throw up with everything else. She's a spunky little thing and keeps on trying for me, but I feel just awful since she doesn't know why her body is betraying her and acts horrified that she's capable of such a thing.

 

[Tobermory]

Have you tried mixing very small portions of your raw with her canned and then gradually increasing the ratio of raw to canned? I use Dr. Pierson’s recipe, too, but I find if I try to switch to a new protein (non rabbit or non chicken) one of mine will vomit it up every time.

 

[coffeeharlot]

Yes, I have. I tried maybe a 1/4 tsp in with her canned and she vomited everything up about an hour later. I could try an even smaller portion?

I did just give her some plain cut up chicken drumstick (just meat) and she did fine, so now I'm even more confused.

 

[coffeeharlot]

There doesn't seem to be an edit button...

I've used chicken every time, if that makes a difference. So it's been the same protein just different sources.

 

[Tobermory]

There doesn't seem to be an edit button...

You’ll be able to edit after you reach a certain number of posts. I don’t remember how many but it’s not a lot.

 

[Tobermory]

I couldn’t tell—or maybe missed—if you tried using the chicken you used in the first batch. Although, it doesn’t seem like it should make that much difference, except for the sodium content.

 

[coffeeharlot]

No, I haven't done that yet! It's next to try on my list. I had intended this batch to be the same brand (Publix), but their chicken looked weird and were dated for the next day, so not wanting to wait I headed to another grocery store and bought their brand which has almost double the sodium.
The Publix brand and Whole Foods brand have similar sodium content, so it's weird she did great on the Publix batch (she transitioned on that and never had an issue) and then the Whole Foods batch made her sick.

 

[Saf]

It might be worth trying something other than chicken - many cats actually have issues with it and beef. It didn't make my cats vomit but they just stopped eating it. Rabbit, pork and venison are meats few cats seem to have problems with so they might be worth trying.

 

[Tobermory]

It will be interesting to see if she vomits a batch made with the first chicken you tried. Are you doing the partial bake?

One of mine vomited pork every time I gave it to her so now I feed it only to the other two.

 

[coffeeharlot]

Tobermory I'm not doing the partial bake. She took to the raw so well during the transition and I wanted to keep her going with that. I'll run by Publix for another batch of chicken thighs and we'll see what happens.

Saf I'm going to try chicken one more time, and if that doesn't work out, I'll try another protein.

 

[Tobermory]

Tobermory I'm not doing the partial bake. She took to the raw so well during the transition and I wanted to keep her going with that. I'll run by Publix for another batch of chicken thighs and we'll see what happens.

I stopped doing the partial bake, too. Mine love the combo of part ground, part chunked.

Perhaps you got some bad liver. You might try new chicken liver or a partial bake of just the liver. Also, give your fish oil capsules a good sniff.

 

[coffeeharlot]

To make things even more confusing, I had used the same liver as the first batch (froze the extra) for the second batch. This third batch I'm going to blame all the sodium. I'll get all new chicken everything and keep my fingers crossed. The fish oil capsules smell okay and the date is good. Very fishy, which is to be expected, but definitely not rancid.

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[orange&white]

I'm always worried when I make cat food that something will go wrong. Like one ingredient or maybe I didn't rinse all the dishwashing liquid off the cutting board and left a soapy taste, or I let the meat thaw too long...or something. I've never made a bad batch (so far) thankfully.

It's hard to imagine that you made 2 bad batches in a row, though I suppose it's possible. You know now to check the meat labels carefully to make sure the chicken isn't brined in saline solution. Normally, unenhanced chicken will be labelled as containing up to 4% retained water (or it's going to have higher % and tell you that a salt brine has been added, evidenced by the higher sodium content). That actually might have caused upset, but the third batch is a mystery.

Check your supplements carefully. I was dismayed at how many supplements are not single supplements and it isn't easy to tell by the large print label on the bottle. For instance, I picked up some fish oil capsules and didn't notice until after I got home and opened them that they were "Fish Oil 1200mg plus Vitamin D3 2000IU". The Vitamin D was in tiny fine print like an afterthought. Cats only need a small amount of vitamin D and if I had used that fish oil in their food mix, it very easily would have slowly built up to a toxic level of vitamin D.

If you bought the same exact brands as in Dr. Pierson's recipe, then don't worry about checking those.

Anyway, I'm assuming you cat is not intolerant to chicken and your meats are fresh and (now) not enhanced with brines. That only leaves me speculating about one or more of the supplements.

 

[coffeeharlot]

The third batch was the enhanced chicken, which is why I'm blaming that for her issues a couple of days ago. The second batch was the fancy pants Whole Foods chicken with leftover liver from the first batch. See why I'm so confused?! All I can think of is something was off with the WF chicken that I somehow didn't notice and/or 3 capsules instead of 2 of fish oil were just too much for her.

I actually bought all the supplements from the iHerb links provided in Dr. Pierson's recipe. All the dates are good and look/smell fine and I just double checked all the labels to make sure something didn't get mixed up. Since the first batch did perfect, I don't think it's any of those she has a problem with.

 

[orange&white]

Your supplements should be fine then. So that is puzzling.

Maybe try making the recipe from feline-nutrition.org next time. It is virtually identical in the meat/bone/organ ratios and the types of supplements, but their are a few big differences in the amounts of supplements added.

...scratching my head.

 

[1 bruce 1]

My only guess is a stretch, but if this meat was bought for human consumption it was probably handled in a way assuming things would be cooked to a certain temperature. Things can sometimes go a bit slack. Even though cats and all carnivorous type beings can usually handle bacteria, some can not.
I wonder what she would do if you fed something from a pet food supplier. Lots of people here have had good luck with Hare Today and other places. If you tell a butcher you're making pet food, they'll sometimes give you stuff that's fresh frozen for that purpose and fresh-freeze scraps and stuff. Might be worth checking out.
Again..probably a stretch but it's something to consider at least.

 

[sophie1]

This is quite a puzzle. Don't give up on raw though! Time to break out the big guns. Start by feeding just chicken meat for a meal or two. If she does well with that, add liver to the next two meals. Proceed like that, adding one ingredient at a time, until you either find the problem or you are feeding the complete recipe with no issues.

I've found grocery-bought meat (yes, even from Whole Foods) to be hit or miss with my cats, although several forum members have fed this way for years with no issues. Hare Today is a great suggestion if the cost isn't an issue. Either that, or find a reliable local source - I buy from a local gem of a poultry farm that slaughters on site.

 

[coffeeharlot]

I've looked into HT, but I don't have the freezer space for the minimum 10lbs of meat and the cost is a bit high for me. I've been looking at some local groups to see if I can either get in on group orders or find a local supplier. I do have access to some great farmer's markets that I'm going to go check out and hopefully speak with the farmers themselves about supplies.

And yes, the chicken has been human consumption stuff, so I don't doubt there can be a not-so-carefully-handled batch here or there. She's been eating chunks of chicken drumstick in between meals just fine for the past couple of days, and ate some in with her canned food this morning. I'm going to cut up a chicken liver and see how that does in a bit. I also bought supplies for another batch (from Publix, since that did well the first time) and am thinking I'll do a half batch to try/hopefully transition again. I'm not giving up on raw anytime soon!

 

[coffeeharlot]

Just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in, especially Tobermory !

She ate a little of the new liver just fine and then ate a smidge of mix in with her canned. No vomiting! Looks like I'll have to start the whole transition process over again since she ate around the chunks until her canned was all gone, but I don't care about that so much. Just so long as she keeps it all down, I'm happy as a clam.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Tobermory]

Just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in, especially Tobermory !

She ate a little of the new liver just fine and then ate a smidge of mix in with her canned. No vomiting! Looks like I'll have to start the whole transition process over again since she ate around the chunks until her canned was all gone, but I don't care about that so much. Just so long as she keeps it all down, I'm happy as a clam.

Thanks again everyone!

Just her little way of keeping you on your toes. I gave one of mine commercial raw lamb the other day. She gobbled it down, looked up at me with a thoughtful expression (“Hmmm,” she seemed to be saying.), and then projectile vomited it all over my feet.