Cooked Recipes Thread

[goholistic]

 

Oh, gotcha. I just did a little reading of terminology on the CatCentric site. I think I got it now. 

  So, with these cooked recipes, are we following some kind of guideline for the percentages of heart, liver, and secreting organs (like the kidneys in the beef recipe)? And then you're figuring out what supplements and how much are needed from there? If I knew there were specific guidelines, perhaps it would allow me some wiggle room on creativity with the recipe if other organs become available to me. 

  I wouldn't want to add too much or too little of something. Or should I just shut up and follow the stinkin' recipes? 

Well you're certainly making me think about a lot of things. 

Anything in particular you care to share? Are you having visions of nutrient analyses dancing in your head? 

 

[mschauer]

Oh, gotcha. I just did a little reading of terminology on the CatCentric site. I think I got it now. 

  So, with these cooked recipes, are we following some kind of guideline for the percentages of heart, liver, and secreting organs (like the kidneys in the beef recipe)? And then you're figuring out what supplements and how much are needed from there? If I knew there were specific guidelines, perhaps it would allow me some wiggle room on creativity with the recipe if other organs become available to me. 

  I wouldn't want to add too much or too little of something. Or should I just shut up and follow the stinkin' recipes? 

Actually there is no relationship between what I do and what you read on catcentric. They use the 80-10-5-5 method of determining the make-up of a recipe. I use the USDA database to develop a nutrient profile for a recipe then compare against the AAFCO and other recommendations. If you use my meat + liver recipe the way I suggest there is very little (none in my opinion) of any deficiencies or excesses in your cats diet.

 

Well you're certainly making me think about a lot of things. 

Anything in particular you care to share? Are you having visions of nutrient analyses dancing in your head?  

 What I'm thinking about is mostly changes to the analysis output to make it more clear how to use.

 

[goholistic]

Actually there is no relationship between what I do and what you read on catcentric. They use the 80-10-5-5 method of determining the make-up of a recipe. I use the USDA database to develop a nutrient profile for a recipe then compare against the AAFCO and other recommendations. If you use my meat + liver recipe the way I suggest there is very little (none in my opinion) of any deficiencies or excesses in your cats diet.

Thanks for explaing how you develop the recipe.

I just meant that I went to the CatCentric site for definitions of muscle meat, organs, secreting organs, etc. so that I understand the difference and make sure I get it right when discussing such things. It was provided as a link on the TCS Raw Feeding Resources sticky for this information.

 

[molanic]

Sorry if it is bad to be resurrecting an older thread, but my questions were pertaining directly to this thread and the other cooked Alnutrin ones with many of the same people posting on them. I have read all I can find, and want to make sure I am understanding it correctly.

I am kind of having the same issues trying to figure this all out. The calculator on the knowwhatyoufeed site seems very limited as far as ingredients used. Like there is an option for cooked chicken breast, but thighs are only raw. Then the other dropdowns you have to choose between heart, gizzard, skin but don't have the option to include more than one. It also doesn't specifically say skinless meat for the thighs, even though I am assuming that is what is meant...hence the separate option for skin. Kind of confusing. If I just select raw thighs and replace a % of the meat with heart and gizzards (say 10%), but leave the rest the same as far as liver, water (plus retaining cooking liquids/fat), and Alnutrin it should be ok right?

As I understand it... consensus is that if you cook the food you try to retain as much moisture as possible and include it in the food to keep fat, moisture, nutrients (except those diminished by heat) in the food. Also the moisture content does not significantly affect the calcium to phosphorus ratio or other nutrients since they are calculated on a dry matter basis?Correct?

I've been printing out the cooked recipes that mschauer compiled which are excellent. I am wondering about the water content and cooking liquids specifically with the chicken and turkey recipes. They both have about the same amount of meat, but the turkey recipes specifies 16 oz cooking liquid+water, while the chicken one does not list water at all. With the raw recipes on the Alnutrin site, they add quite a bit of water by default.

My thinking is that if you cook the meat with no added water and retain the moisture (by tightly covering)...the cooked meat+retained liquid should be pretty close in moisture content and calories to the raw meat. If the consistency is good and I don't add any additional water, wouldn't that make the calories and fat in the finished food much higher per ounce of food than shown in the calculator? I'm trying to get a rough estimate of the calorie content to make my transition period from kibble easier. I'm trying to make them hungry enough to try new foods, but avoid the dreaded fatty liver!

My brain gets a bit mucky trying to figure this all out! But, I am often accused of over-thinking things, or "polishing a turd," as my mom often says.:lol3: But, my overlords want me to figure this stuff out ASAP.

P1080887.JPG

• molanic
• Jan 18, 2015

 

[mschauer]

I love that picture of your kitties! They all look like they expecting something exciting to happen!

I've struggled with how to specify how much water to add to a cooked recipe. What you want is for the finished food to have about the same moisture content (70-80%) as it would have if it weren't cooked. So you want to add back an amount of water equal to what was lost during cooking. But how to know how much that is?

I've decided that the best way to go about it is this: Use a minimal amount of water during cooking. Add the cooking liquid to the food then add an additional amount of water to make the finished food about the same consistency it would be if it weren't cooked. That is, make it the consistency of raw ground meat. It shouldn't be dry but it shouldn't be soupy. I believe that will result in the finished food having about the moisture level as the original, uncooked, ingredients.

I think...  

BTW, even when making raw ground food I find beef to be very dry. I always have to add a lot more water to my beef recipes, cooked or raw, than I do with other meats. So actually my beef recipes come out moister than raw beef.

 

[molanic]

Well here's what I ended up doing with a screen cap of the nutrient calculator entries I used as a very rough guideline with entries for raw. I ended up with a finished product that weighed a full 11 oz less than the calculator showed. I forgot to weigh the cooked meat/fluid after cooking so I'm not exactly sure where I lost the 11 oz or if the calculator is just wrong.

I bought 7.42 lbs bone in skin on chicken leg quarters. After I removed the backs, the bones, and a little more that half the skin I was down to 3.4 lbs to use in my recipe. The de-boning was a difficult task for a novice, but the leg quarters were only $.48 lb and now I have a big bag of bones, back, and skin in the freezer for making broth. I figure my usable meat for this recipe is now $1.05 lb which is not bad.

So I went to the Alnutrin calculator and selected raw chicken -74% thigh , 6% liver, 10% gizzard. I entered 3.4 lb for my raw meat amount. After baking the thigh/leg meat, when I saw how much fat was released (~1 1/3 c.) I decided to just put in 10% water in the calculator because I figured the food would be pretty wet. So it showed .9 c water, 3.4 lb thigh, 4.4 oz liver, 7.4 oz gizzard, 22.9 g Alnutrin.

calculator.gif

• molanic
• Jan 19, 2015

I put the baked and cooked thighs in the freezer for about an hour to firm them up for chopping in the food processor. I used part heart for the gizzard amount since I had some leftovers and cooked the heart, gizzard, and liver in a covered skillet with about half of the additional water added in. I chopped up the chilled meat and reserved chilled fat (totally solid) in the food processor. Then I pureed up the heart liver gizzard cooled mix with its cooking liquid and mixed in the Alnutrin. I poured that over the chopped meat in a huge bowl and stirred really well, then decided to add rest of the water from the recipe.

The consistency was firm but very moist with no pooling liquid. I weighed the finished food and had 3.9lbs, while the recipe showed it would make 4.6lbs (with raw)...off by 11 oz! I baked tightly covered with foil and cooked in a skillet with the lid on almost the whole time. So I still either lost a lot of moisture during cooking, or goofed up somewhere. I tried to scrape all my dishes as well as possible, but there is always some residue and the kitties did steal a few tiny bits.

The calculator shows 29.2 calories/oz which I'm sure is significantly lower than what I made due to that 11 oz difference in total weight and the fact that I used leg quarters with some skin on, which adds fat. It is not their entire diet so I don't think it will hurt them per say. I just wish I could figure out what the calorie content is and if it is balanced enough. I still have to figure out the fish oil thing too, but this is a start.

 

[mschauer]

You really shouldn't use the online Alnutrin calculator with raw ingredients when what you actually use is cooked ingredients. Adding the cooking liquid to the food only returns minerals that leached into the water during cooking. It does nothing to restore the vitamins that have been degraded by the heat of cooking. 

That said, I suspect your food isn't far off from being nutritionally balanced or at least very close to it. 

The 11 oz you're missing is likely vapor that escaped during cooking. Some moisture will be permanently lost during cooking. You can't capture it all. Not in a home kitchen anyway.

 

[molanic]

I see how the analysis would be inaccurate entering in raw, but using cooked instead. I thought I read the calculator was assuming the cooking liquids would be largely discarded though and so it was recommended to use the raw entries if you were retaining all liquids. It also seems like they recommended you not use the Alnutrin with cooked high fat meats like lamb. I read so many posts my mind is loopy.

I will probably use one of the lower fat recipes next time. My goal I guess was to make it kind of calorie dense because I am having trouble getting the kitties to eat enough of the wet or homemade food, so they are still getting more kibble than I would like. Kibble is so calorie dense that they have no problem eating more than enough of it.

This may be totally flawed logic but... I was trying to figure out approximately how many calories per ounce are in the food I made taking into account the water loss. I was thinking that if the only difference is the amount of water, then the calorie content of the batch as a whole would be the same regardless of how diluted it was with water. So I multiplied the calories per ounce by the total ounces I was supposed to make, and then divided it by the total ounces I actually had. Based on that I got 34.4 cal/oz instead of 29.2 cal/oz. Then I figured a few more calories an ounce to account for the partial skin I left on. That may be total crazy town math though! Oh, well at least I didn't make too much of it and they are still getting other food too.

 

[LTS3]

Didn't see this listed anywhere - there is a pre-mix for cooked meat called U-Stew. You cook ground or chopped meat from the supermarket for a few minutes, remove from stove and cool to room temperature in the pot, then add the pre-mix along with some water. Full inctructions with pictures are on the web site.

Here's another recipie using the TC Feline premix: http://tcfeline.com/2010/08/16/cooked-meat/

 

[ldg]

The supplements are actually listed in the Resources threads: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264153/home-cooked-cat-food-resources

 

[sisi 1]

thank you all for your help.but i forgot to tell you that i am from europe and now i live in Tunisia country which is not organise for heaving pets.in my city we dont have even pet shop.i was never to think that i will have a pet here.but  Sisi come to my house as small kitty and i have him now.he is 3 monts old he dont like milk and cat food which i found here.than i am making for him kous kous and meat or fish but what ever he eat is mith kous kous.some time i give him some snuck like cheese or only meat he enjoy that.he never eat raw meat or fish i dot  even know if he will tuch it.i vgot only dogs befor.Sisi is my 1 cat and i love him so much that is the reason that i ask you for some recipes for him.i thank you all.really is very hard to live in muslim country and have a pet.i whant to do best for him as much i can here.

 

[rlobster]

First of all thanks for the recipes.

I intend to try feed my cat mschauer's cooked chicken recipe and I was wondering if I can substitute the egg shell powder with NOW Foods 100% Pure Calcium Carbonate powder that I saw on iHerb.

Can I just swap the 2 and use the same amount of calcium carbonate powder? Or is there a need to recalculate the amount of calcium carbonate powder needed?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[mschauer]

 
First of all thanks for the recipes.

I intend to try feed my cat mschauer's cooked chicken recipe and I was wondering if I can substitute the egg shell powder with NOW Foods 100% Pure Calcium Carbonate powder that I saw on iHerb.

Can I just swap the 2 and use the same amount of calcium carbonate powder? Or is there a need to recalculate the amount of calcium carbonate powder needed?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Calcium carbonate has slightly more elemental calcium per gram than eggshell so 15 grams in place of the eggshell would be more accurate but 16 grams would be fine.

 

[cayvand]

 
I can actually do the analysis with Alnutrin now. It's just awkward to not be able to make it clear that the lose of B vitamins due to cooking has been considered.

The rabbit recipe actually is OK with just Alnutrin and no other supplements:

Click here for a directory of printable cooked recipes.

I was thinking of switching to homemade wet food for my cat. However, I'm fairly uneducated on the matter. Would I be able to feed this as a substitute for wet food? Would I still be able to leave dry out for snacking? Also, how much does this recipe yield?

Edit: After looking at the all in prices I'd be more comfortable starting with the cooked chicken recipe seeing as it's a bit more reasonably priced and my kitty hasn't had an issue with chicken thus far. 

 

[mschauer]

 

I was thinking of switching to homemade wet food for my cat. However, I'm fairly uneducated on the matter. Would I be able to feed this as a substitute for wet food? 

Yup.  Using a nutrient supplement like Alnutrin makes it quite easy to produce a home-made food that is equivalent to store bought canned food. Just be sure to use the ingredients shown in the recipes with no deletions or substitutions.

 Would I still be able to leave dry out for snacking?

Absolutely. 

 Also, how much does this recipe yield?

That's a little hard to say. There will be some moisture loss during cooking, some of which you will replace when you mix the food. Use a cooking method that minimizes moisture loss. Also be sure to use the cooking liquids in the final food as there will be nutrients that leached into it during cooking.

Note that Alnutrin wasn't formulated for use with cooked ingredients although it does work if used as shown in the recipes in this thread. You might be interested in a a couple of products that are intended for use with cooked ingredients:

http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_u-stew

https://secure.balanceit.com/marketplace2.2/index.php?m=homemade

 

[catlover100]

I am thinking about making my own kitties food. I have one male that just had a blockage so I want to keep him on his Royal Canin urinary SO. But I now know they all need to be on canned food. But when I add it up it is going to cost me probably more than $150 to feed all three of them each month. I just can't afford it. 

I am thinking it must be cheaper to cook my own food. The Alnutrin seems to be the easiest way to go but will it also make the cost a lot higher. 

Those of you cooking your own food about how much do you think you spend each month. I don't have a grinder and can't afford to get one so I have to be able to use other meats where it is not necessary.

I would appreciate any information. This is getting so frustrating. 

 

[nekolove]

Hi, I have a kitty who I think has IBD. Before I go into more aggressive therapy (prednisone and or endoscopy), I thought I'd try to make homemade food for her-to work more carefully on her diet first.

I don't cook much and am not at all comfortable with handling raw meats (I'm mostly vegetarian) and would like to try a beginner's cooked recipe. I've read through the threads and was wondering if anyone has tried the U-Stew for cooked feline food or know of any other quality options? It seems Alnutrin is a good product, but I feel more comfortable with a product that already is calculated for the nutrition loss of cooking the meat. Also, any other super-beginner's tips are welcome (though I am researching the threads and trying to find good books) Thank you!

 

[LTS3]

@missmimz   uses U Stew as do a few other people. It's really easy to use, just cook meat (no oil, salt, etc), let cool, then add in the right amount of pre mix and water (can add more water if preferred). I use the raw version of U Stew and my cats like it. I can't recall if it is missmimz or someone else but there is a TCS member who is a vegetarian and has no problem at all handling meat or  feeding their cats a raw or home cooked diet.

Here are some threads about U Stew:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/306216/how-much-u-stew

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/282976/u-stew-for-cats-feedback

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/268930/u-stew-for-cats

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/275498/u-stew

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/291770/questions-about-making-homemade-cooked-food-for-my-ibd-kitty

 

[lisamarie12]

Hi, I have a kitty who I think has IBD. Before I go into more aggressive therapy (prednisone and or endoscopy), I thought I'd try to make homemade food for her-to work more carefully on her diet first.

I don't cook much and am not at all comfortable with handling raw meats (I'm mostly vegetarian) and would like to try a beginner's cooked recipe. I've read through the threads and was wondering if anyone has tried the U-Stew for cooked feline food or know of any other quality options? It seems Alnutrin is a good product, but I feel more comfortable with a product that already is calculated for the nutrition loss of cooking the meat. Also, any other super-beginner's tips are welcome (though I am researching the threads and trying to find good books) Thank you!

Sorry about your kitty, I can relate, I have a cat that was recently diagnosed with severe IBD.

I used U-Stew several months ago for a few weeks, as LTS3 mentioned, it's very easy. Mainly just remember to let the meat cool after cooking before adding US otherwise the heat cooks away the premix.
You can portion and freeze individual servings and thaw daily portions. Since cats generally don't like the food cold (it can also make them vomit), you can either add a bit of warm water to the food or, if you've stored it in a ZipLock type of bag, run it under warm water.
My Molly really liked the food initially, I used ground turkey, but my last batch didn't turn out so well and she refused it. I think it had more to do with the meat I was using rather than US, just opening the packet of US she was very attracted to it.
I will probably revisit US again since I have enough for about one pound although maybe with a higher grade of turkey meat.
Good luck, give it a try. What's nice about home cooked, especially for IBD cats, is that you can avoid all those thickeners found in even the premium brands of cat food, e.g., carrageenan, guar and xanathan gums, locust bean, cassia gum, etc. These types of gums can make things worse for some IBD cats, especially carrageenan, which can cause or exacerbate inflammation, and guar gum, which can have a laxative effect.

US also uses food based supplements vs synthetic, another nice feature.

 

[nekolove]

 
@missmimz   uses U Stew as do a few other people. It's really easy to use, just cook meat (no oil, salt, etc), let cool, then add in the right amount of pre mix and water (can add more water if preferred). I use the raw version of U Stew and my cats like it. I can't recall if it is missmimz or someone else but there is a TCS member who is a vegetarian and has no problem at all handling meat or  feeding their cats a raw or home cooked diet.

Here are some threads about U Stew:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/306216/how-much-u-stew

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/282976/u-stew-for-cats-feedback

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/268930/u-stew-for-cats

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/275498/u-stew

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/291770/questions-about-making-homemade-cooked-food-for-my-ibd-kitty

Thank you so much for these links, LTS3. I hope this helps her!