Commercial raw vs. frankenprey

[kittylover23]

My cats are on the NV raw right now, but they're not constipated, strangely...I would much rather prefer 10% bone content but I'm just so pleased that Cookie's eating raw food in general, and if she's not constipated, I don't really see a reason to change her over.

I'm sure I will be doing frankenprey sometime in the near future, though.

(PS Laurie: I hit my PM limit thing again, so I sent you an email!

)

 

[emilymaywilcha]

So you all think the only reason commercial raw would be better than frankenprey is it requires less work to feed your cats? If that is true, it is all about what the cats want. I know some cats prefer it ground. When this happens, do you try to switch them to frankenprey until it becomes obvious they will not eat it that way?

 

[emilymaywilcha]

My cats are on the NV raw right now, but they're not constipated, strangely. I would much rather prefer 10% bone content but I'm just so pleased that Cookie's eating raw food in general, and if she's not constipated, I don't really see a reason to change her over. I'm sure I will be doing frankenprey sometime in the near future, though.

If every NV customer who observed constipation complained to the company about putting too much bone in the recipe, would they lower ti to 10 percent? I would certainly want to think so because that means less money for them. I will play it safe and look for a company that uses 10 percent bone.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

If my cats would eat Frankenprey, I would gladly go that route, but so far, no luck getting them to eat chunks, not even when I cut them up really tiny and mix them into their favorite ground raw, darn it!  I don't know what happened, because earlier on when transitioning them, they would occasionally eat some actual pieces of chicken, turkey or pork, but no longer, silly goofballs. 

As far as NV, none of mine like any of their varieties.  Maybe it's the fact that they have fruits and vegies in it, maybe too much bone, I don't know, but I have had to return every bag I've purchased.  But mine didn't like Natures Logic either. 

 

[emilymaywilcha]

I don't know what the big deal is about not feeding ground raw meat. One website does say grinding raw meat is a bad idea, but of course that could just be someone's opinion because not all people feed a raw diet the same way.

 

[Willowy]

When meat is pre-ground (before you buy it), it provides a lot of surface area for bacteria to grow. Like I said, I don't worry about bacteria, but some people do. You have to trust whoever packaged the meat handled it well and froze it immediately. And if you buy it whole and grind it yourself, you have to get a meat grinder, which is a significant expense. And some people believe that eating ground meat is boring for the animal, and chunks of meat provide more mental stimulation, make them feel more like carnivores. Taurine levels go down when the meat is ground, so you have to supplement.

Those are some reasons some people prefer chunks over ground :dk:.

 

[ldg]

My cats are on the NV raw right now, but they're not constipated, strangely...I would much rather prefer 10% bone content but I'm just so pleased that Cookie's eating raw food in general, and if she's not constipated, I don't really see a reason to change her over. :dk: I'm sure I will be doing frankenprey sometime in the near future, though.

Only two of my eight got uncomfortably constipated. :nod:

 

[ldg]

If every NV customer who observed constipation complained to the company about putting too much bone in the recipe, would they lower ti to 10 percent? I would certainly want to think so because that means less money for them. I will play it safe and look for a company that uses 10 percent bone.

Why bother? It's easy enough to just thin it out with plain meat (I mean, raw is being fed already), and most cats don't have an issue with it - and it's meant for dogs too. I have no idea what their calcium requirements are.

 

[ldg]

I don't know what the big deal is about not feeding ground raw meat. One website does say grinding raw meat is a bad idea, but of course that could just be someone's opinion because not all people feed a raw diet the same way.

Willowy addressed it. More surface area = more oxidation (potential degradation of nutrients) and more potential for bacterial growth.


Commercial raw

Pros:

Easy
If you buy-in to the AAFCO "complete & balanced" concept, there are many labeled "complete & balanced"
Cats can share food because each meal is balanced

Cons:

No control over ingredients
It's still processed in manufacturing plants


Home made ground

Pros

Control over ingredients & recipe
Prepared in batches, so easy to feed when it's meal time
Cats can share food as each meal is balanced

Cons

Requires significant investment (grinder)
Ground meat needs to be supplemented to account for degradation of nutrients from the grinding and being frozen ground (usually at least taurine and Vitamin E; potentially some B vitamins).


Frankenprey

Pros

Control over ingredients
Can be prepared in meal-size portions so it's easy to feed when it's meal time
Provides the dental benefit of chewing chunks of meat (and for most feeding frankenprey, bone).

Cons

The meat, bones, and organs make the diet balanced, so each cat has to eat their own food.



Please, if anyone has other pros and cons for any style, please add to the list.

 

[ldg]

So you all think the only reason commercial raw would be better than frankenprey is it requires less work to feed your cats?

No.

The only reason commercial raw would be better than home made ground is it requires less work to feed your cats. But you give up control, and your pet's food is still manufactured in a plant, and shipped under what conditions? Whose to say it didn't sit in some truck and dethaw and then refreeze? :dk:

Frankenprey is simply a ... closer to natural way of feeding your cats to the way they would eat in nature. And because it's served in chunks, the nutrient quality of the meat is preserved, and it benefits kitty's teeth.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

I remember Carolina's problem was trying to figure out how to feed boneless frankenprey because calcium supplements cannot easily be mixed with meat chunks. So another advantage of grinding it is you can supplement calcium for constipated kitties.

 

[ldg]

I remember Carolina's problem was trying to figure out how to feed boneless frankenprey because calcium supplements cannot easily be mixed with meat chunks. So another advantage of grinding it is you can supplement calcium for constipated kitties.

You're not remembering correctly. We were just wondering how they'd react to calcium being sprinkled on their food. It hasn't been a problem for either of us. So there's no advantage or disadvantage to ground vs frankenprey when it comes to using calcium supplementation rather than bone.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

The only reason commercial raw would be better than home made ground is it requires less work to feed your cats. But you give up control, and your pet's food is still manufactured in a plant, and shipped under what conditions? Whose to say it didn't sit in some truck and dethaw and then refreeze?

 

Boy, that happened to some I bought.  I could definitely tell it had thawed, then been refrozen.  It was actually leathery when I tried to mix in the probiotics!  Rather disgusting.  Luckily the store took it right back.  I told them they might have a problem with their freezers, then they told me when they get a delivery, there is just one guy who unloads the truck.  And when it's 120 degrees outside, it can thaw out pretty quickly while he's doing his thing. 

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Why is thawing and refreezing bad for the cat?

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Why is thawing and refreezing bad for the cat?

Well, I guess it depends on just how much it thaws.  In my case, it must have been a lot, because the outside of the "nuggets" was just like leather, and since I like to mix in digestive enzymes and probiotics, it was almost impossible to do it.  Didn't think it would taste very good that way either.  Who know...I wasn't going to taste it, plus have no way of knowing what it should taste like anyway, since I never tasted it in it's "correct" form either

 

[ldg]

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/FactSheets/Focus_On_Freezing/index.asp

Dethawing and refreezing isn't bad per se. It's just that what if it was dethawed long enough to have bacteria start growing on it?

I buy chubs of ground meat/bones/organs that I dethaw, add supplements to, and refreeze in meal size portions. But what if that food had been dethawed under less-than-ideal circumstances to begin with? So now it's been dethawed and refrozen twice.

Of course, the main point in commercial vs home made is the issue - you give up control.

 

[kittylover23]

Honestly, when it comes down to commercial raw versus frankenprey, I vote frankenprey - even though I'm feeding my cats commercial raw at the moment. I would totally love to do frankenprey for my cats, and hope to in the next few months, while I learn more about raw feeding. I am still a raw newbie, so I figure before I start doing frankenprey, I better suck up as much knowledge as possible.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Honestly, when it comes down to commercial raw versus frankenprey, I vote frankenprey - even though I'm feeding my cats commercial raw at the moment. I would totally love to do frankenprey for my cats, and hope to in the next few months, while I learn more about raw feeding. I am still a raw newbie, so I figure before I start doing frankenprey, I better suck up as much knowledge as possible.

I totally agree. Trying to feed frankenprey without knowing what I am doing is a recipe for disaster.

Do you think your cats will want the frankenprey after living on commercial raw?

 

[ldg]

Even if they don't, you can simply take what you would use, and make it ground. Just vary the proteins in the recipe. :dk:

 

[ldg]

I totally agree. Trying to feed frankenprey without knowing what I am doing is a recipe for disaster.

I was worried about doing everything just right too. But feeding commercial raw got me comfortable with feeding raw. And I know that nutritional deficiencies take a long time to develop, so I figured - what's the worst? If I supplement with some taurine, I'm not going to cause them to go blind or have heart failure. :dk:

All that's required is varying proteins, knowing how much they eat so you can add in liver and another secreting organ in the right amount. When planning the menu for the first time, it actually took about 15 minutes. :dk: If you know how much raw they're eating, figuring out 5% of the total (for liver), and allow 5% for another secreting organ... and then just decide whether you want the liver served in two meals or three, or whether you want a little kidney and a little liver in each of 4, 5, or 6, meals... really isn't that difficult.

If you want to supplement calcium instead of use bone, that's already been all worked out here - whether using eggshell or NOW calcium hydroxyapatite. If you want to use bone, most just feed 3-4 meals a week of chicken wings (minus that big piece). :dk:

The rest, from there, is just preference. Most of use use an omega 3 - again, links to the supplements have already been provided and how we give them have already been provided, so it's just choosing (or doing your own research on what you want to use). Same with a probiotic.

:dk:

Like Dr. Mahaney says,

The standards for nutritional content as dictated by Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) create a challenge for pet owners who are interested in feeding home prepared foods, as society has been misled to believe that our pets will suffer detrimental health effects if protein, fat, carbohydrate, fiber, vitamin, and mineral ratios are not specifically commensurate with industry standards. In extreme cases, or with pets already dealing with illness, this has some validity.

Otherwise, feeding a home prepared diet has many nutritional advantages over commercially available pet grade sources even if the home prepared version is not 100 percent “complete and balanced.” I would rather feed my dog a combination of moist, human grade, muscle meat protein, whole grains, and fresh vegetable and fruit options having a somewhat varying or unknown cumulative nutrient content rather than any commercially available dry or canned option made with pet grade ingredients. This perspective is controversial in the veterinary profession, but my beliefs are based on clinical experience and common sense.

http://www.patrickmahaney.com/animal-treatment/poisoning-companion-animal-feeding/#hide

Common sense says that all cats need are meat, bones, and organs. That's all they eat in the wild. It's really not rocket science. With the experience I have now, I'm really glad I went ahead and made the switch before I knew everything was going to be 100% perfect. There is no such thing, and simply giving them what they need - meat, a small amount of liver and if you can, something like kidney, and ensuring they're getting the right amount of calcium is enough (if you rotate the proteins). The rest can be worked out as you go.

:dk:

Emily (or anyone else), if you want me to send you the analysis of feral cat diets published by Dr. Plantinga, just PM me your email address. I'm happy to send it. This is they paper I'm talking about: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434


Emily, let me ask you something. Have you tried offering Patricia a small piece of raw anything?