Cat Introduction 5 weeks in - video of resident cat crying?

[catelionis]

Hi guys, I've been posting on another thread but wanted to start a new one just for this specific video.

We're 5 weeks into introducing what I now know is an 8-month old kitten/cat (the breeders told me she was 5 months old but her passport says she was born in July).

Intros are not catastrophic, in that there's been no fighting/lunging at the glass door during visual interactions, but Phoebe just seems absolutely miserable and has changed from being active during the day and sleeping with us at night, to sleeping all day and going out all night.


She was just with me in my bedroom and Ava (8 month old) started scratching and meowing at the door. Phoebe ran onto the windowsill while my bf removed Ava from the door, and this is Phoebe now:


I think she's really, really unhappy and I don't know if it should be like this 5 weeks in (2 and a bit weeks of visuals). Is she crying? Is she severely stressed?

And ultimately, is this the point at which we make the devastating choice to rehome Ava?

Thank you.

 

[ArtNJ]

I dont remember all the details, but as far as the video goes, yes, 100% the cat is expressing some stress and displeasure, but fairly mild thing really. I dont see anything in the video inconsistent with the cat getting over it, and if, for example, you were only a few days into a visual access or full access (intermingling) step, I would say this is totally normal. If its been a long time and you still have this, a bit discouraging sure, but sometimes these things take more time, and there is nothing about the video without all the details that remotely suggests its time to rehome. So sorry to say, I think you need to link your threads back up or similar to receive advice from someone that doesnt remember all the details. Well, unless my assessment of the video is sufficient -- hope it helps.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Here is your other post, if that helps anyone to come up with ideas. Introducing a 6-month-old female kitten to a 2-year-old cat | TheCatSite

I think some of the issue is with Phoebe being allowed to 'escape' by going outside. I believe it will extend the timeline to get these two cats to cohabitate together.

What else have you done regarding proper introductions? I am not seeing much in that regard in your other post. I know you gave up the baby gate because Ava could escape, but there are other options for blockades. They can't really smell each other through a glass door.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

And it takes as long as it takes. Considering some of the ultimately successful introductions we've seen, 5 weeks is barely any time at all.

While Phoebe is expressing some anxiety, it isn't overly much, really. Don't give up yet.

 

[Alldara]

Agree with above. There will always be some level of stress when introducing cats. 5 weeks is a short introduction and you just advanced to together visits recently.

I believe I mentioned on your last thread that Phoebe should be kept indoors or out only on a harness during introductions. She should not be let out at night if you know she's going to stay out overnight. For her safety, I would say not to let her out at all at night. I don't bring my cats to the patio or on harnessed walks after dark at all.

By having Phoebe outdoors, you are encouraging her that the only way she can release her stress that Ava is causing, is by going outdoors. She needs support instead to release her stress by playing indoors. The walk on a leash is that she would associate one of her humans with giving her that support of going out, it becomes a bonding activity rather than a solo venture.

I do have concern that having her outside for the intros, that Phoebe might be taught that she should be outside and Ava should be inside. I stopped commenting on your last thread because I don't think this is advice you want to hear and you were still getting advice from others.

The goal is to get them both to view their home as their home and their family, human and cat as love comfort and support, then it will take more time and patience. But you will also need to follow some more traditional introduction methods.

As someone who is an experienced cat owner who previously did not follow transitional introduction methods until my most recent cats: there's a reason for the methods. They work to build the bond, without negatively impacting the relationships that already exist in the home. I truly wish I had known this when I was younger. It would have made Nobel a more confident cat and it would have allowed my late cats to bond properly. By following the tested methods, you're lowering your risks of stress illnesses, having to rehome one soon or in the future and even diverted agression and non-recognition agression. This is because you are teaching them that you are in control of making a safe introduction, so after a vet visit or similar, you can to a "whirlwind" reintroduction that lasts a couple hours.

 

[catelionis]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply to help me, it's much appreciated. I'm exhausted by this and have shed many tears over the last few weeks.

So the trouble we have, is that we only have a 1-bed house, and the only time we can let Ava roam is when Phoebe goes outside. We've tried keeping Phoebe in the bedroom (with my partner with her) while I play with Ava and the loud noises of Ava running around stresses Phoebe out. So we thought by letting Phoebe out to play, we could use this time to play with Ava and tire her out so by the time Phoebe is back (she goes out for a couple of hours at a time), Ava is sleeping and Phoebe has a calm home so she doesn't feel as stressed inside.

I've tried harness training Phoebe in the past and it was a huge fail, but I do now understand the reasons behind not letting her outside during these introductions that I didn't understand before - that Phoebe might think she should be outside and Ava should be inside. I didn't put that together and now I understand it, so I will try to harness train her again. She always comes back from her outside patrols, even at night she's out for a couple of hours, sleeps for a bit, eats, then goes back out again, rinse and repeat. And right now, she's sleeping next to me without a care in the world.

In terms of visual barriers, I did want to buy a screen door but my partner said as we're moving out in a couple of months and buying our first home, we can't really afford to spend another £60-70 on top of the hundreds we've already spent this month on cat trees, toys, etc. We read some articles on using a glass door instead and thought, perfect! But if you're saying that's not good, then I'll broach him about buying a screen door.

I contacted Ava's breeder last night and told her the situation, and she told us to take the temperature and put them in the same room, as long as there's no fighting, it will be fine.

So I'm just trying to process all this information and trying to work out what to listen to and what not to listen to, and it's hard. My partner wants to try to put them in the same room this evening and just see h

 

[catelionis]

just see how we get on.

 

[Alldara]

Respectfully, I disagree strongly with your breeder. If that interaction becomes negative, you may set back the progress you made. I don't really understand why you would consider such a high stress method, when you're concerned about how stressed Phoebe is just by Ava's sounds.

A one bedroom is more than enough room to do this. It's fine for the noises of Ava to cause a little stress for changes.

There is no introduction method that causes 0 stress. Put on some music (maybe even cat music with purring) and just encourage some play in the room for Phoebe. She might not play at first. But you keep doing it until she does, because that's how you know she's calmed down.

You may be able to borrow and stack two baby gates, rather than buy a screen door.

if you are moving in a few months, I urge you to stop letting Phoebe out on her own from the time packing starts until at minimum 3 months after you've settled in to your new place. Many cats will take off. It's not a risk I would want anyone to take.

I understand that she comes home, however, letting a cat out unsupervised is an extremely risky behavior, at night all of those risks are increased. I'm happy to share some literature with you if you'd like. My personal experiences with letting cats out unsupervised has been extremely traumatic: as soon as I became an adult I did not allow this for any of my cats. Long stories short: they always come home and it's always fine until they dont come home or it's not fine. It only takes 1 experience.

I guess I don't understand the cognitive dissonance between not wanting Phoebe to be stressed in any way, and allowing such a risky behavior.

 

[Alldara]

Anyway, please watch the videos together with your partner. Then you'll both know how to follow the steps of proper introductions. Some stress is fine. It will happen.

The videos are made by cat behavioural experts and veterinarians. Your breeder may be an experienced breeder, but it won't make her a behavioral expert.

 

[ArtNJ]

Hmm, maybe I have some slightly different opinions to share here. So hear me out and use your own judgment to sort the opinions out I guess.

Firstly, I'm not 100% sure I understand the exact situation, but if its just the stress noises, then absolutely they can work through that, and that might be the fastest way forward. Stress noises are pretty normal when moving up in steps, to visual access or to full access. Many many best buds have had some hissing from one or the other for days and sometimes longer. Sometimes, no matter what process you do, they have to work through some of that at the last step. Thats because its more stressful, so nothing you did could fully prepare for it. And they do work through it. Cats can generally work through most everything except actual fighting, although sometimes the stress signs are too severe if you get something like not eating or vomitting. But just some noises, its absolutely possible and very likely for them to work through that. A formal introduction process is the gold standard, but millions of people around the world just throw cats together every year, and it mostly works out. You just want to do enough monitored time to make sure they aren't going to fight.

As far as the glass door vs a screen door, personally I wouldn't worry about that at all. You have a one bedroom, and its been 5 weeks. The scents are all over the place. Scent swapping is no longer useful I feel. I mean, intense scent on a favorite blanket might still be relevant -- you could move the favorite blankets around perhaps. But the routine cat scents are going to be all over your one bedroom, and a screen door vs a glass door shouldn't mke any difference at all. Either way, your running a visual access step, which can be useful to take tensions down.

I haven't gone back and read the original thread, so I can't say what I would do, run the glass door longer or proceed to see what they can do on their own. But your living situation is also relevant there. Twisting yourself in knots isn't necessarily worth it if seeing what they can do looks viable. And nothing in the video makes me think it isn't viable.

Personally, in a studio or one bedroom I'd be looking to take the temperature after a few days or a week tops, and see if I could throw adults cats together, because its so incredibly hard to do a lengthy process. And if they aren't going to fight, they can usually work things out about as well as they could after a lengthy process.

 

[catelionis]

Ok, thank you for the advice. I'm not sure if you're based in America or Europe (I'm in England), I know the debate of indoor/outdoor life differs greatly across the continents. I live in a very quiet cul-de-sac and everyone's cats are outside, it has always been very normal in my life to see this, so I never considered this to be 'wrong' in any way.

I am going to go away and do some reading though, so if you could send me that literature, I will be grateful. I do intend to build a catio in my new home for Phoebe and Ava to enjoy, while being safely enclosed. Or at least cat-proof the fencing.

If you think the breeder is wrong, I'll take that on board, thank you. How difficult it is when people very assertively state their opinion, when they differ so wildy from one another. The breeder pretty much said 'If you're not confident enough to do this, then there is no point carrying on and I will have Ava returned'. She is Dutch and they're known for being very to the point, but wow...

 

[ArtNJ]

Oh, in addition to my last post, which I think came in seconds before your post so you may not have seen it, let me respond to the indoor/outdoor point. The major relevance in introduction land is that if indoor/outdoor gives a cat a way to avoid seeing and smelling the other cat for huge chunks of the day, then it greatly limits progress. In extreme cases, I think all of us have recommended keeping the cats inside at least for the introduction time. Its a separate issue independent of people's general views on the indoor/outdoor point. Sometimes it makes intros a lot harder, depending on how much avoidance behavior your seeing.

 

[catelionis]

Hmm, maybe I have some slightly different opinions to share here. So hear me out and use your own judgment to sort the opinions out I guess.

Firstly, I'm not 100% sure I understand the exact situation, but if its just the stress noises, then absolutely they can work through that, and that might be the fastest way forward. Stress noises are pretty normal when moving up in steps, to visual access or to full access. Many many best buds have had some hissing from one or the other for days and sometimes longer. Sometimes, no matter what process you do, they have to work through some of that at the last step. Thats because its more stressful, so nothing you did could fully prepare for it. And they do work through it. Cats can generally work through most everything except actual fighting, although sometimes the stress signs are too severe if you get something like not eating or vomitting. But just some noises, its absolutely possible and very likely for them to work through that. A formal introduction process is the gold standard, but millions of people around the world just throw cats together every year, and it mostly works out. You just want to do enough monitored time to make sure they aren't going to fight.

As far as the glass door vs a screen door, personally I wouldn't worry about that at all. You have a one bedroom, and its been 5 weeks. The scents are all over the place. Scent swapping is no longer useful I feel. I mean, intense scent on a favorite blanket might still be relevant -- you could move the favorite blankets around perhaps. But the routine cat scents are going to be all over your one bedroom, and a screen door vs a glass door shouldn't mke any difference at all. Either way, your running a visual access step, which can be useful to take tensions down.

I haven't gone back and read the original thread, so I can't say what I would do, run the glass door longer or proceed to see what they can do on their own. But your living situation is also relevant there. Twisting yourself in knots isn't necessarily worth it if seeing what they can do looks viable. And nothing in the video makes me think it isn't viable.

Personally, in a studio or one bedroom I'd be looking to take the temperature after a few days or a week tops, and see if I could throw adults cats together, because its so incredibly hard to do a lengthy process. And if they aren't going to fight, they can usually work things out about as well as they could after a lengthy process.

Many thanks for your advice! Oh, their scents are absolutely everywhere for sure. Phoebe sniffs the toys that Ava plays with and they both nap in the same places (when they're site swapped), so that's all ok. Phoebe, in between visual sessions is acting completely normal - eating, purring when I pet her, sleeping, pooping, peeing.

The glass door approach is mentioned on several websites as a way to do visuals, so that's what I did, considering I have a glass door and don't have a screen door!

I'm going to sit back, take a lot of deep breaths and re-read everything on both threads again.

At the moment, I think I'm a bit too emotional and I'm doing a lot of black and white thinking.

 

[Alldara]

At the moment, I think I'm a bit too emotional and I'm doing a lot of black and white thinking.

Honestly, we forget how stressful the intros are on the humans. Sitting back and taking some time to try and move from the black and white thinking and really noting what's gone well for you (because a lot has in the last 5 weeks), is really good for you.

I liked the video watching for that. I watched and rewatched videos a million times when I introduced Nobel and Magnus (my first true proper one). I compared and contrasted. I noted what worked and what didn't. What I did right and what I did wrong.

You'll be okay and this is just a bump in their road to friendship.

 

[catelionis]

Thank you so much, that really means a lot.

I had no intention of homing a second cat, until me and my partner went to a cat exhibition, just for something to do on a Sunday really. There was one kitten (Ava) who was screaming the place down in her little cage, I hated it. I was almost in tears seeing her so stressed. Then I saw that she was for sale. I told the breeder I already have a second cat but I would love to give Ava a happy life. She not once mentioned anything about introductions, what I needed to do, she said it would be all fine because Phoebe is only 2 and Ava is a kitten.

It was only once we had her home and I started researching that I found out how difficult this process is. I feel very cheated by the breeder, if I had known what was involved I wouldn't have done this. But me and Ava are so bonded now that I must continue.

 

[catelionis]

Hmm, maybe I have some slightly different opinions to share here. So hear me out and use your own judgment to sort the opinions out I guess.

Firstly, I'm not 100% sure I understand the exact situation, but if its just the stress noises, then absolutely they can work through that, and that might be the fastest way forward. Stress noises are pretty normal when moving up in steps, to visual access or to full access. Many many best buds have had some hissing from one or the other for days and sometimes longer. Sometimes, no matter what process you do, they have to work through some of that at the last step. Thats because its more stressful, so nothing you did could fully prepare for it. And they do work through it. Cats can generally work through most everything except actual fighting, although sometimes the stress signs are too severe if you get something like not eating or vomitting. But just some noises, its absolutely possible and very likely for them to work through that. A formal introduction process is the gold standard, but millions of people around the world just throw cats together every year, and it mostly works out. You just want to do enough monitored time to make sure they aren't going to fight.

As far as the glass door vs a screen door, personally I wouldn't worry about that at all. You have a one bedroom, and its been 5 weeks. The scents are all over the place. Scent swapping is no longer useful I feel. I mean, intense scent on a favorite blanket might still be relevant -- you could move the favorite blankets around perhaps. But the routine cat scents are going to be all over your one bedroom, and a screen door vs a glass door shouldn't mke any difference at all. Either way, your running a visual access step, which can be useful to take tensions down.

I haven't gone back and read the original thread, so I can't say what I would do, run the glass door longer or proceed to see what they can do on their own. But your living situation is also relevant there. Twisting yourself in knots isn't necessarily worth it if seeing what they can do looks viable. And nothing in the video makes me think it isn't viable.

Personally, in a studio or one bedroom I'd be looking to take the temperature after a few days or a week tops, and see if I could throw adults cats together, because its so incredibly hard to do a lengthy process. And if they aren't going to fight, they can usually work things out about as well as they could after a lengthy process.

Thank you so much. The fact we are in such a small space must be factored in here, so thank you for noting that. I like your approach, and I think it might be what we try and be absolutely ready to intervene if it turns nasty. Phoebe is not an aggressive cat, she's a scaredy cat, so I think that lands us in good stead in terms of the likelihood of fighting. And Ava is so tiny, she is absolutely no threat to Phoebe. But obviously Phoebe doesn't understand that yet!

I'll keep you updated!

 

[Alldara]

Re: Outdoor - Indoor cats

I think a catio in your new place is an amazing idea. I know you said before Phoebe mostly stays in the fenced yard so that's also great.

Right now, I mostly have concern because if you're moving, she can run away to try and stay in her territory. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...sQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw0nng1eAXOpP0hvEEZCOjPz

Advice & welfare: Tips on moving house with a cat • SPCA New Zealand

Where you are it may be the culture for cats to be out and in that case, I think you have less human risk. So you can disregard that. I've watched a lot of Kitten Lady's videos on cats in different cultures and in many cultures cats are outside, treated well and loved by the community.

I'm in Canada. We've had a lot of human risk. In one major city over COVID, cats were harmed by a human. This also happened in another city when I was a child. Multiple cities had pet-theft by underground dog fighting rings until those were caught.Even the regular minor risk of a good Samaritan bringing your cat in thinking it's not homed or lost (best case brought to the vet and you might have to pay a small housing fee. Worst case they keep your pet.)

There are risks of cat fights, diseases and injuries from cats, predators and vehicles, etc. Again, this you'll have to assess by country and even where you live in that country.

Cats can be a detriment on local wildlife. Added to already having territory and food shortages, the wildlife needs support to be healthy.

Lastly, someone's outdoor cat who is unsupervised can be effecting the quality of life of other cats negatively. Yeah I know some cats make friends with other indoor-outdoor cats. But even a quick search on any thread you'll see many people talking on deferred agression, sometimes even to the point of having to rehome one of their cats and usually having to deny their cats the "CatTV" of looking outside.


Indoor-only or outdoor access? | International Cat Care

Should I keep my cat indoors? Is unsupervised outdoor time OK?.

 

[Alldara]

Thank you so much, that really means a lot.

I had no intention of homing a second cat, until me and my partner went to a cat exhibition, just for something to do on a Sunday really. There was one kitten (Ava) who was screaming the place down in her little cage, I hated it. I was almost in tears seeing her so stressed. Then I saw that she was for sale. I told the breeder I already have a second cat but I would love to give Ava a happy life. She not once mentioned anything about introductions, what I needed to do, she said it would be all fine because Phoebe is only 2 and Ava is a kitten.

It was only once we had her home and I started researching that I found out how difficult this process is. I feel very cheated by the breeder, if I had known what was involved I wouldn't have done this. But me and Ava are so bonded now that I must continue.

Unfortunately, this can be common. My dad did the same with a dog once!

Some breeders don't vet the homes as much as a rescue does. Certainly, more literature for potential adopters/buyers should be available at both types of places.

I'm sorry you were underprepared. But you've done a great job asking for help and doing research.

 

[catelionis]

Small update:

We bit the bullet and had a 10-minute supervised interaction in the room last night and it was broadly fine, I would say.

Ava ran up to Phoebe and Phoebe naturally growled and hissed to stay back, and did some low-key growling throughout, while observing. Ended it after 10 mins once Phoebe started yawning and losing interest.

This morning we did half an hour! Much less growling from Phoebe already, only when Ava gets too close. She was loafing for most of the time on the top of a bookshelf and watching Ava. Definitely cautious, but no aggression.

I think this is.... ok!

 

[Alldara]

Small update:

We bit the bullet and had a 10-minute supervised interaction in the room last night and it was broadly fine, I would say.

Ava ran up to Phoebe and Phoebe naturally growled and hissed to stay back, and did some low-key growling throughout, while observing. Ended it after 10 mins once Phoebe started yawning and losing interest.

This morning we did half an hour! Much less growling from Phoebe already, only when Ava gets too close. She was loafing for most of the time on the top of a bookshelf and watching Ava. Definitely cautious, but no aggression.

I think this is.... ok!

This is really good