Breeding Desert Lynx

[cccdlx]

An Advisor's response to a previuos thread I posted got me to thinking I should clarify things a bit on what I am up to with this relatively unrecognized breed.   There are basically two lines of Desert Lynx cats both with Bobcat lineage.

1. IDLCA requires the wild blood be no less than 12.5% 

2. The Rare and Exotic Feline Registry...There are reasons that they state that there is no evidence of bobcat DNA. (the founders of this branch of DLX reside in North Carolina).

These two entities (for lack of a better word) had a falling out and separated.  This was primarily due to outcrossing.  REFR accepted more outcrosses which broadened the gene pool.  Unfortunately, in my opinion made the breed standard 'fuzzy'.  One of the products of these outcrossing has come to be recognized as the Highland Lynx.  The Desert Lynx was were this breed originated from.

My first Desert Lynx was a female kitten given to me by a friend.  When I got her registerd, I was amazed to see that her granfather was recorded as a BOBCAT.  She also had lots of foundation blood in her.  Her loving personallity, unusual vocals, and often strange behavior (for a domestic cat anyway)  made me  want another Desert Lynx.  I have been with cats all my life and I has never before met with such unusual character.

There are very few breeders that breed strictly DLX.  It primarily HLX, with the straight eared kittens registered as DLX..  I made it my mission to go back to the original.  I found a FANTASTIC lady on the west coast that didn't have any HLX in her lines.  Her DLX are all foundation bloodlines. She is actually breeding Snowbob Desert Lynx.  Hook line and sinker.  I now have two of her boys.  East meets West you could say. 

 

[maewkaew]

I was wondering if ILDCA was still around.  ildca.com  doesn't work anymore.  

It seems to me that ILDCA may have had the right thought that it was not  a good idea to aim at high percent Bobcat crosses?   at least from what I have heard from exotic cat owners,   Bobcats are NOT the easiest exotic cats to deal with !    

  [ I'm not one of those people who thinks Lynx rufus  x Felis silvestris catus crosses are impossible.    but I do suspect that some people may have have made false claims of definite Bobcat crosses.    just like there are people crossing wolfy looking dog breeds and calling them wolf dogs.   What I wonder about the Bobcat thing is,  if there are people who say they have a bobcat that they are breeding to a domestic,  there could be video proof of mating  and DNA proof of parentage.  Has anyone done that?  

 ( I 'm not talking about a test to look for Bobcat markers which I don't know if they are able to do yet?   and I know some Pixie-bob folks say the reason the DNA tests found no bobcat is that the test was not able to pick that up.   I know there are Pixie-bob breeders who absolutely   I heard a few years ago researchers were trying to come up with a more specific test but i don't know what happened with that.)   

 Re the outcross issue that you said the 2 groups of DL breeders divided over.    If you need to broaden the breed's gene pool then it does make sense to use careful outcrosses for the sake of health.  

    Using outcrosses DOES mean that in the short run you lose some type to gain genetic diversity .    That's not a bad thing if you then selectively breed toward a well-defined standard  ( when I say 'you' I mean not just one breeder )   

But  REFR seem to accept just about anything as a "breed" with rather vague descriptions.  With a very vague breed standard  you can get breeders going off in very different directions and still calling them the same breed.    Even more so with  allowing a wide variety of outcrosses.  

So it doesn't seem like a good idea to  do a lot of outcrossing AND have a vague breed standard.  

What is the difference between Desert Lynx and  Pixie-bob?       &  between DL and American Bobtail?  I mean both in terms of how you define  and describe the breed.   How would you make the DL standard compared to the standards for those breeds?  

( ADDED:    Here's a link from an American Bobtail breeder  about differences between their bred and PB .  Maybe this could serve as a useful  starting point for how the DL compares.  http://attitudeacres1.homestead.com/Differences.html     )

 The other question is,  is there really a NEED for another U.S. based bobtail breed so similar to existing breeds  ?     It is very confusing because there are all these people breeding bobtail cats,  in many cases said to have bobcat ancestry ,  and calling them a bunch of  different names.   It really goes to the question "What is a breed?"   

Basically there's 2 general issues ,  but they're connected.   One is you personally being responsible and ethical in your breeding and care and selling practices with your own cats.    The other is the direction of the breed as a whole.  and it's impossible to separate those two things since you don't breed in a vacuum.   You need a committed breed community working together toward some common goals besides selling kittens.

 

[cccdlx]

According to IDLCA founder, the magic word for hybridization was artificaial insemination.  No I'm not keen on the hybrid aspect of breeding these cats. 

The org. doesn't appear to be active.  The founder recently told me that she is closing her cattery and retiring.  Too few of her cats out there.

IDLCA was crossing with PixieBob, American Bobtail, MANX, and Maine Coon.  Papered breeders.

REFR allowed even unregistered crossed until recently.    

I have been studying the breed standards tor PB and AB.  I am very weak in the terminology department.  That website link is GREAT!!!  I will put some more study into it.  I have a standard that I am looking for in my lines. I would be easier for me to show you than trying to describe.  I am working with a breeder in Oregon who has consistently maintained the conformation and temperament that I desire.

I would surely like to see the REFR with a better defined breed standard for the DLX.  Now that they have tightened up on the registry, maybe I can help.  There are very few of us breeding them.  The fad seems to be the Highland Lynx.  

DLX polydactyl snows are what I want to end up with.  

Yes, personal responsibilty plays a huge part in my plans and how I proceed.  These are my pets FIRST!!! and I dearly love them all.  Half of the cats that live with me have been spayed/nuetered.  Everyone gets along here.  With the exception of the two boys.  They are not caged! Gets a bit smelly at times, but they are much happier being treated like cats.  Because I enjoy the harmony, and good health (physical and psychological) I keep the population down.  8 total right now.  

 

[Willowy]

If you're not keen on the hybrid aspect, why did you choose to breed hybrid cats? 1/8 bobcat minimum seems a bit high on the hybrid scale of things.

 

[cccdlx]

Ruby is a total love bug, friendly with just about everyone she meets. Quiet and gentle natured.  I have two of her kittens (China Doll and Chippendale) and kept in touch with the families of the others.  She had 8.  Though thier families are in love with them, they have told me some things that make me want to back away from the wild.  If indeed that's what it is.  One of her boys I was unable to rehome because of his shyness.  He even growls sometimes when I pet him.  He nips a little and scares very easily. It took almost a year for him to bond with ME. He's not mean, just there was too much potential to be misunderstood.  One of the girls came back to me because she wouldn't bond.  I wasn't her fault.  The people were often gone for several weeks at a time.  I found her another home that she fits into perfect.  I have chosen my boys carefully.    You don't need wild blood to have the look of the wild. 

 

[Willowy]

This part: "IDLCA requires the wild blood be no less than 12.5%" did you mean to say "no less than" or " no more than"? If it really is "no less than", that would mean every Desert Lynx is at least 1/8 bobcat, which I think is fairly high for a hybrid and would likely result in some wild behaviors. Or are you not breeding to IDLCA standards?

They're lovely cats but I'm real iffy on wildcat hybrids :/.

 

[cccdlx]

Mine are not IDLCA, there are two lines now.  The founders parted ways years ago. Mine are REFR.  This line went on to develope the Highland Lynx.  Truthfully,  if someone could find something that resembled a true breed standard for ANY Desert Lynx I would be eternally grateful. 

 

[Willowy]

Oh, that explains it .

 

[cccdlx]

Yep, clear as mud!  I was serious about the seeking a true 'standard'.  I'm very weak on the terminolgy but visuals I do better with.  Maewkaew sent me a great link on the comparison of the Pixie Bob and American Bobtail.  Any breed descriptions, and I do mean ANY BREED, would be very educational for me.  I get so lost with the verbal descriptions.

 

[maewkaew]

Yes,  breed standards can be hard to interpret if you're not used to how things are described and used to associating the words with the cats.  and even if you are,   since breeders write the standards and have their own way they try to express it.    Some standards are much more detailed than others too. 

but new breeds get help from a breed liaison , input from the board and spend years showing the cats to judges and discussing the standard and refining it.    That's one reason it takes a long time to get to full recognition in most cat associations. 

For more understanding of what is meant by the American Bobtail and Pixiebob standards,  look on their Breed Intro pages on the TICA site http://www.tica.org/public/breeds/bb/intro.php      http://www.tica.org/public/breeds/pb/intro.php      and click on "Seminar"  to download Powerpoint presentations. 

I'm sure you've already seen the Highlander standard  http://www.tica.org/members/publications/standards/hg.pdf     They dont have a breed seminar posted on TICA's site..   ( I remember they did one live  at the Annual in 2010 but I couldn't make it. ) 

I have seen  fewer Am. Bobtail breeders saying they have bobcat in them than in the other  breeds.    By definition,  it seems  the American Bobtail is defined as a naturally occurring domestic bobtail breed that has been bred from moggies with natural bob tails ,   rather than created from outcrosses to cats of specific breeds.   ( well there probably was a tiny bit of distant Siamese behind the pointed moggies used in American Bobtail breeding to get the pointed cats but not that they were actually crossing to Siamese,  so far as I know.    

Then the Pixiebob and DLX   in both of those breeds seems like (compared to American Bobtail)  there is more emphasis by SOME of the breeders on definite or legendary Bobcat ancestry;  in both PB and DLX  you have some breeders boasting of Bobcat and others denying it.     

 ............. are both of those are created breeds that are the result of crossing a bunch of   different domestic breeds.... and some moggies....  and in the case of some cats of each breed,  some Jungle Cat....  maybe  in some cases even ALC via Bengal      

So going by the definition the DLX seems more like Pixiebob in those ways   But more like American Bobtail in allowing more colors and patterns. 

The Pixiebob actually to me looks the most bobcatty .    Maybe they're doing the bobcat A.I.  thing  under the table.  (  I  wouldn't think it could be too hidden for anyone paying attention. esp if they end up with sterile males for a few generations,  or make a sudden leap in type)     Or maybe it really is just that some of them are very successful at selectively breeding Pixiebob to Pixiebob. 

I wonder  why ILDCA made the requirement for at least 12.5%  of the exotic cat species,    unlike the other exotic hybrid breeds I'm familiar with.

Maybe it is a moot point since ILDCA seems to be no more.    and REFR  portrays them as being a completely domestic cat,  so they can't very well require any specific percent of wild cat.   (  How do they deal with pedigrees that list  Bobcats as ancestors,  especially in recent generations, like your girl's grandfather,,  while they are calling them completely domestic?   ) 

You picked a rather difficult time to try to get into this breed.    with some of the older breeders quitting it,  and others going  to Highland Lynx / Highlander   

.   Do you think people gravitated toward the  Highlander because they started advancing in TICA?  ( I think they went from Experimental to Registration Only in 2005.   and have been in Preliminary New Breed since 2008 .   I would guess they have only got as far as they have with the Board because the ears made them so different from the other bobtail breeds.    ( I am sure some people in TICA are not happy about that.  because they didn't want more breeds based on combining mutations for structural abnormalities.   )  ( I am just glad they didn't decide to make it a folded ear cat.   At least I haven't heard of American Curl having problems like the Scottish Fold.) 

 

[cccdlx]

I do so love your thought provoking replies Maewkaew.

"Seminar"... download Powerpoint presentations...I will definitely look into this. Thank You!!!

in both PB and DLX  you have some breeders boasting of Bobcat and others denying it.  Maybe they're doing the bobcat A.I.  thing  under the table.

Arlene says it was AI when they started. I haven't spoken with any PB breeders, so I don't know about them. I think this denial of BC has alot to do with the laws in those states concerning hybrids and marketability. If DNA testing can detect the differences in a Canadian Lynx/American Bobcat cross, why can't they do the same for a Bobcat/ domestic cat cross???  I like the BC for the size and the conformation.

So going by the definition the DLX seems more like Pixiebob in those ways   But more like American Bobtail in allowing more colors and patterns. 

Pam's Pride used quite a bit of Pixie Bob in her line.  Many of her DLX registered with REFR were also registered as Pixie Bob. I'm not sure if it was TICA registered PB though.  I still have to file for the papers on my boys. I'm hoping I can go back at least five generations.

REFR doesn't allow white markngs, 'Chrome' in horse terminology. Nor do they allow calicos, etc. I love the pattern of the Classic Tabby, I DO NOT think it should be considered an acceptable Desert Lynx coat pattern. 

The Pixiebob actually to me looks the most bobcatty .

I think that may be why I like my Cascade Cubs  so much.  Even the character description of the PB could be applied to the DLX. Yes indeed! what distinguishes the DLX from the PB!!! ,  

 

http://Are both of those created breeds that are the result of crossing a bunch of  different domestic breeds.... and some moggies....  and in the case of some cats of each breed,  some Jungle Cat....  maybe  in some cases even ALC via Bengal 

What is ALC?   From what I have heard, It started with a few select crosses in the DLX, there has been mention of Chausie, african jungle cat etc. The original split came because of the Curl.  

You picked a rather difficult time to try to get into this breed.    with some of the older breeders quitting it,  and others going  to Highland Lynx / Highlander.

Yes I did didn't I! LOL I have a vision of what I think the DLX should be, distinct. and I am patient. I want a cat that looks like a Bobcat, White Ttiger, and Snow Leopard, all rolled into one fantastic pet.

I am sure some people in TICA are not happy about that.  because they didn't want more breeds based on combining mutations for structural abnormalities.  Basic biology teaches us that such genetic mutations are rarely beneficial to a species.think. I actually know of a 'breeder' that wanst to produce, GET THIS, A snow, munchkin, nst, poly, with folded or curled ears!!! Talk about mutations!!! 

I am just glad they didn't decide to make it a folded ear cat.   At least I haven't heard of American Curl having problems like the Scottish Fold.) I don't know about the folded ears problem, but I have heard that the curled ears can have a problem with hygeine, infections, and ear mites.
 

I wonder  why ILDCA made the requirement for at least 12.5%  of the exotic cat species, Could it have been NOVELTY AND MARKETABILITY???

 

[cccdlx]

http://   Do you think people gravitated toward the  Highlander because they started advancing in TICA? 

YES, kind of makes good sense doesn't it?  I know of one that is doing just that.. Making the transition from Highland Lynx to Highlander.