Antibiotic question and concern.....

[feralvr]

Hi all

Some of you know I am dealing with a new issue with Pipsqueak, but not new to alot of cat owners. Blood in urine, no crystals and normal PH of 6. I don't want to address that here as I have another thread for Pipsqueak. My main concern is the antibiotics and want to be advised of any thing I should be aware of.

Pip was on Baytril for the last two weeks. Finished up Sunday. He still has blood. vet doing xray on Thurs. And his assistant told me if the xray doesn't show stones, more antibiotics!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am VERY worried about Baytril and the threat of blindness. he was fine on the first round, but I don't know if I want him on Baytril again

. Does anyone know of another antibiotic that could be used for his condition? What about that Covenia shot I have heard some of you using for your cats? Would another round of Baytril be too risky?

p.s. Of course, I trust my vet, and will ask him all about these concerns tomorrow, but I wanted to get some feedback from my trusted friends on TCS. I think my vet will also be getting another urine sample to send out to lab to culture and wouldn't that tell us what kind of antibiotic is needed?

Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[lovewhiskers]

Hi Lauren

I am so sorry to hear about your little Pipsqueak. We went through a similar experience with our RB Heidi Ann. Yes, you need a lab culture to figure out what specific antibiotic your little boy needs. Convenia, Baytril, Amoxycilin and and Clavamox are all broad-spectrum antibiotics but there are some differences in the spectrums of bacteria they cover. I would take his urine in as soon as possible so that you get the results back as soon as possible, and start him on the appropriate antibiotics. If I remember correctly it took a few good days to get the culture tests back for our Heidi. She started with Baytril while waiting for the culture tests, and then we switched over to Clavamox based on the culture test results.


What is the diagnosis from your vet? Did they mention Feline idiopathic cystitis (FIC)?

to Pipsqueak

 

[feralvr]

Thanks, LoveWhiskers

for your reply. I will get another urine sample in the morning then and bring that in with me so we can get that culture done. How long was your cat on the antibiotics, if you remember.... And, yes, my vet did mention FIC.

I do appreciate any input and recommendations

Best,
Lauren

 

[lovewhiskers]

Heidi was on antibiotics for 5 mos on and off and I hated it but there was no way around it. She was a geriatric kitty by the time she started battling this. I am hoping your little squeaky boy will get better much faster than our Heidi Ann did. We have never had problems with Baytril with any of our kitties and believe me, I do understand your concern regarding the blindness side effect.

Heidi Ann took several different antibiotics because she developed several bacterial infections, all with different bacterial composition. She tolerated most of them very well (the only one she could never take was the Amoxy, she had sever vomiting episodes from it; the same for our Tubi who does not tolerate Amoxy).

 

[feralvr]

Thank you again for your response. It gives me a heads up on the "possibility"

of long-term antibiotics if the culture shows bacteria. OH!!!! yes, they are taking a sterile needle draw directly from Squeak's bladder tomorrow(after the xray) to send it off. So doc told me today that we won't start any antibiotics until the culture comes back from the lab. That way we will know if #1 there is bacteria and #2 what it the best antibiotic to kill that bacteria.

I feel better hearing you say you had no trouble with the Baytril. Squeak did fine on it for the two weeks he was taking it BUT I was so worried

and kept checking his eyesight. If anything I noticed a slight loss of appetite

and he loves to eat. Thanks for the heads up about the Amoxi

I know every cat is different, but Squeak has never been sick before or on any other antibiotics. That is why I am asking to be advised, as I am really not up to speed on the antibiotic front !!!!

 

[lovewhiskers]

Yes, for a culture you need a sterile sample. The sampling is painless, Heidi had quite a few of them.

Baytril may have given Pipsqueak an upset stomach, most common side effects of all oral antibiotics are the digestive ones.

Here are vibes you get a definite answer and solution to his problem

Marina

 

[ldg]

I know the waiting is the hard part, and I'm sending

for that. But seems like waiting for the culture is the best idea, so glad that's the case!

 

[presto]

Just wanted to let you know that 'Baytril' is one of the 'Fluoroquinolones' which are considered the "biggest guns" of the antibiotics. In fact, tonight on the news, there was a story about two people (humans) who had irreversible nerve damage from using these drugs. Please express your concerns to the vet(s) who are treating your cat, and inquire if there are any other antibiotics which can be substituted. Sometimes treatment is worse than disease. Keep that in mind, get second opinions, and use common sense. Good luck!

 

[feralvr]

Originally Posted by Presto

Just wanted to let you know that 'Baytril' is one of the 'Fluoroquinolones' which are considered the "biggest guns" of the antibiotics. In fact, tonight on the news, there was a story about two people (humans) who had irreversible nerve damage from using these drugs. Please express your concerns to the vet(s) who are treating your cat, and inquire if there are any other antibiotics which can be substituted. Sometimes treatment is worse than disease. Keep that in mind, get second opinions, and use common sense. Good luck!

Presto, thank you for this. I can't even pronounce that word

but it is a scary word to me. At this point, Squeak is not on anything. The sterile urine culture was sent out today. I will wait for five to seven days till we get the results. I am very reluctant to put him back on the Baytril. Appreciate your info.

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by Feralvr

Thanks, LoveWhiskers

for your reply. I will get another urine sample in the morning then and bring that in with me so we can get that culture done. How long was your cat on the antibiotics, if you remember.... And, yes, my vet did mention FIC.

I do appreciate any input and recommendations

Best,
Lauren

It would be better for the vet to.get the urine sample via cystocyntesis (sp) which is a procedure whereby aneedle is inserted through the abdomen and into the bladder to draw the sample. That way, any bacteria existing in pipsqueak's urethra don't interferenwith the culture and sensitivity test.

Baytri is quite strong so that is probably why your vet prescribed it. The C&S will tell the vet what kind of bacteria you're dealing with and so your vet can presribe the right antibiotic.

I didnt read the whole thread so if you already have your answers, I apologize. Just jumped in probably prematurely.

 

[feralvr]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

It would be better for the vet to.get the urine sample via cystocyntesis (sp) which is a procedure whereby aneedle is inserted through the abdomen and into the bladder to draw the sample. That way, any bacteria existing in pipsqueak's urethra don't interferenwith the culture and sensitivity test.

Baytri is quite strong so that is probably why your vet prescribed it. The C&S will tell the vet what kind of bacteria you're dealing with and so your vet can presribe the right antibiotic.

I didnt read the whole thread so if you already have your answers, I apologize. Just jumped in probably prematurely.

Feel free to jump in anytime, and thanks for the input. Yesterday, Doc did take a sterile urine sample via cystocyntesis. I am saying my prayers that at least that culture will give me the answers I am desperately looking for, and then he can be put on the proper antibiotic.

 

[momofmany]

My Muddy has FIC. His xray was negative for stones, but there was still trace amounts of blood in his urine. Urine culture (done like you just did for Pipsqueak) also came out negative. Our next step was an ultrasound, which showed an inflamation of his bladder. Since that didn't really pin it down, we had a surgical biopsy done on him.

End result - FIC. Idiopathic diseases are maddening, as you can only treat symptoms as the cause is unknown. Muddy has been on steroids (pred) for 2 years now and we occasionally bring him in for a Covenia shot. We know it's time for his Covenia shot when the other cats in the house spend a lot of time sniffing his behind. Muddy doesn't tell us when he's ill (he doesn't have to, our snitches do it for him).

If Pipsqueak's bladder is simply inflamed, you need something to reduce the swelling. Antibiotics do reduce inflamation for a short period of time so while you think they are working, they are only masking the FIC.

 

[feralvr]

Originally Posted by Momofmany

My Muddy has FIC. His xray was negative for stones, but there was still trace amounts of blood in his urine. Urine culture (done like you just did for Pipsqueak) also came out negative. Our next step was an ultrasound, which showed an inflamation of his bladder. Since that didn't really pin it down, we had a surgical biopsy done on him.

End result - FIC. Idiopathic diseases are maddening, as you can only treat symptoms as the cause is unknown. Muddy has been on steroids (pred) for 2 years now and we occasionally bring him in for a Covenia shot. We know it's time for his Covenia shot when the other cats in the house spend a lot of time sniffing his behind. Muddy doesn't tell us when he's ill (he doesn't have to, our snitches do it for him).

If Pipsqueak's bladder is simply inflamed, you need something to reduce the swelling. Antibiotics do reduce inflamation for a short period of time so while you think they are working, they are only masking the FIC.

Thank you for your reply. Doc does think Squeak has FIC, as Squeak is a very sensitive cat and quite high strung naturally and this alone can cause the bladder to become inflammed

. And all of this testing may be for naught. I then need to know what to do to decrease the inflammation in the bladder. Is Muddy on a special diet along with the Pred? It is a very frustrating disease and I feel so very sad for my little guy

And thanks for mentioning the Covenia shot, I will bring this up to Doc.

 

[zendora]

Poor 'Squeak! If only we could take the pain in place of our pets...it is especially tough when its an idiopathic issue. But the tests weren't for nothing; FIC is awful, but at least you can rest well knowing that he isn't suffering from something more ominous.

Hang in there, Mr. Pip - you've got a lot of Chi-town kitties sending you healing vibes.

 

[feralvr]

Originally Posted by Zendora

Poor 'Squeak! If only we could take the pain in place of our pets...it is especially tough when its an idiopathic issue. But the tests weren't for nothing; FIC is awful, but at least you can rest well knowing that he isn't suffering from something more ominous.

Hang in there, Mr. Pip - you've got a lot of Chi-town kitties sending you healing vibes.

AWWWW, Squeak is right here on my lap looking at the screen. He always sits next to me when I am posting on TCS

. Thanks for the vibes from his new Windy City kitty friends

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by Feralvr

Thank you for your reply. Doc does think Squeak has FIC, as Squeak is a very sensitive cat and quite high strung naturally and this alone can cause the bladder to become inflammed

. And all of this testing may be for naught. I then need to know what to do to decrease the inflammation in the bladder. Is Muddy on a special diet along with the Pred? It is a very frustrating disease and I feel so very sad for my little guy

And thanks for mentioning the Covenia shot, I will bring this up to Doc.

Muddy is on a urinary health diet to keep his PH in check. He eats most of a can of Purina UR for breakfast (he hates other prescription foods) and for dry he gets Science Diet C/D. I am able to get away with a normal can of wet food at dinner, although I've eliminated all fish flavors from his life.

Muddy is normally a mellow cat, although we do have a lot of cats here, and our alpha doesn't really like him, so I know there is some stress in his life.

Until we got his condition under control, he blocked twice. His bladder would get inflamed, which would throw off its PH, which would cause crystals to form. The last time he blocked was a few hours after I fed him a fish flavored canned food, which by chance was on the day where DH and I were under an extreme level of stress (sudden death of a close friend). Muddy is very sensitive to my moods. So both food and stress levels can trigger problems with his bladder.

He was seen by 5 different vets - 2 at our regular clinic, a cat specialist, and 2 ER vets. I grilled each of them on how to best manage his condition. I got different answers from each of them - anywhere from acupuncture to relieve the pain, happy drugs to keep his stress free, pain meds to keep him relaxed, and various flavors of steroids. By trial and error (we tried each of these), we settled on a lifelong regime of prednilisone, which is the easiest on his body and doesn't make him groggy. He takes 5 mg every other day and will do so for the rest of his life. Pred isn't hard on cats as it is on humans and dogs, and it keeps the inflamation down.

 

[feralvr]

It is very comforting to hear how you have managed Muddy and hopefully I can do the same for Pipsqueak. I did not know that about Pred being easier on cats than dogs. I know the toll it takes on dogs because my dear Wilbur has been on Pred on and off these last few years with the typical side effects. So it is a relief to hear that it is not as hard on cats. I really think part of his issue is his attachment to me and he does over react to my moods as well. He really likes other cats though and that doesn't seem to stress him. But noise, people coming up to the house, the doorbell, dogs barking, separation anxiety all are contributing to this condition. He does have a bit of an aggression/control issue and blames the dogs for everything. He also gets very stressed when I leave and waits for me by the door. It is possible he might need an antidepressant and the Pred more than he needs an antibiotic. I will wait for that culture and am praying that it gives me some answers. I also agree that we have to feed them whatever wet food they will eat. Fancy feast seems to work for a lot of finicky cats who need to eat wet food. Squeak is not too picky although he will turn his head up at some brands. But no more fish flavors and that goes for all of my cats. Again, thanks for your help and direction.

Lauren

 

[momofmany]

I should mention that I have another cat (Stumpy) with a life long auto-immune disease that has been on pred for the last 4 years. He's 16 years old now and if it weren't for the pred, we would have lost him 4 years ago. The biggest issue with pred and cats is the risk of developing diabetes, which if that happens, it usually occurs shortly after putting them on it. Most cats will adjust to it and the diabetes goes away by itself. Since Stumpy is so old, we do regular blood panels and he hasn't had any signs of diabetes. Muddy has a blood screening yearly as a precautionary measure (Muddy is 8).

I got this information about pred side effects from a cat specialist. I trust this vet. I brought both Muddy and Stumpy to her for a second opinion on their conditions.

 

[feralvr]

Originally Posted by Momofmany

I should mention that I have another cat (Stumpy) with a life long auto-immune disease that has been on pred for the last 4 years. He's 16 years old now and if it weren't for the pred, we would have lost him 4 years ago. The biggest issue with pred and cats is the risk of developing diabetes, which if that happens, it usually occurs shortly after putting them on it. Most cats will adjust to it and the diabetes goes away by itself. Since Stumpy is so old, we do regular blood panels and he hasn't had any signs of diabetes. Muddy has a blood screening yearly as a precautionary measure (Muddy is 8).

I got this information about pred side effects from a cat specialist. I trust this vet. I brought both Muddy and Stumpy to her for a second opinion on their conditions.

Very valuable information you are passing along to me, and I am thankful. Squeak is only four and a half years old

. And, now as I sit here thinking about his past history with "minor" issues, I am wondering if it is all related to his immune system

. He has terrible, terrible diarhea as a kitten on and off until he was about a year old. We did find out he had Tritrichomonas Feotus and it was a bit of a battle irradicating that. He gets the sniffles and mild eye irritations on and off. That is why I have him on L-Lysine everyday too. I found that if he is on the L-Lysine, he doesn't get these mild problems. He also had a fatty lump tumor removed a couple of years ago on his chest, which is VERY unusual for such a young cat to get. Could this all be tied together, maybe.......

I have never before today thought that all of these "little" issues could be coming from a bigger underlying health problem

 

[momofmany]

Stumpy's auto-immune disease has always involved his skin. When he was about 18 months old, he lost nearly all the hair on his torso from the neck to his tail. He never had scabs, never scratched, and all the skin scraping tests we ran on him were negative. We changed things around in our environment to see if he had an allergy of some kind and nothing helped. Since he showed no sign of discomfort at all, we let it be.

Stumpy lived with 5 dogs during this time (approximately 8 years). Exactly 1 week after the last dog (Ellie Mae) crossed, his hair grew back. When we adopted subsequent dogs, he didn't have the same problem, so we realized that he was allergic to Ellie Mae all those years.

A few years later when he started drooling uncontrollably and we started tests in his mouth, he was diagnosed with Lymphocyctic Plasmacytic Stomatitis, an auto immune disease where his gums thought that his teeth were foreign invaders. He had to have all his teeth pulled to control the disease, but that particular disease always remains in the gums and often starts up again in the throat. We've controlled it since the extractions using pred. People on the yahoo stomatitis site talk about immunity boosters to control the disease.

I tell you this (long) story because what it all boiled down to is that Stumpy has allergies. These types of allergies are basically an auto-immune disease. While it started in his skin (and only parts of his skin), it migrated into his mouth. If Pipsqueak has had issues all his life, I bet there is something going on with his immune system. Keeping him on L-Lysine will help, and I'm sure others can chime in with other immune boosters that they've used. Carolina has her cats on some of them.