An interesting development tonight!!

[p3 and the king]

Cats need certain nutrients. If the diet you're feeding does not contain those nutrients, or not enough or too much or not in the proper ratios, I can't see that as being good

.

Exactly.  But too much is definitely not good.  It's a touchy issue because no one likes to be told they aren't doing it right... Unfortunately we live in a society that is very open and outspoken but also judgemental.  We all want to "1 up" the next "parent" whether it be a child or a cat, etc... My thoughts are, it is best to speak with a trusted professional to make sure your cat(s) have the best and most balanced diet necessary.   Getting advice from a forum, though it may be helpful on many and most topics... This is one that you really need to see someone with and that someone needs to have knowledge of your baby and their needs.  Because those of us on the forum really do not.  We can only say what is right for us on this matter... It my not be right for you and your babies. 

 

[Willowy]

A professional cat nutritionist, yes. Speaking to my vet or a dog nutritionist or the acupuncturist would do no good, because none of them are trained in cat nutrition. I would no sooner take a vet's word on cat nutrition (unless he/she had gotten specific training in the subject) than I would take the word of people on a forum. As in, I would listen to what they had to say and then go research other sources. Sadly, in my experience, vets give THE WORST nutritional advice (my vet says: "doesn't really matter. Anything with a brand name on it should be OK. But not Ol' Roy. Purina's pretty good. . .").

But there's also just common sense. If you're feeding a diet that, in the way a cat would naturally consume it (bones and all) would contain x amount of calcium, then if the bones are removed it would only make sense to add back that amount of calcium (and other nutrients found in bones). And to balance the ratios in a way that would match the ratios that would be found in the natural state. And certain nutrients, like lysine and taurine, are water-soluble and can't really be overdosed, so there's no reason not to add them.

 

[p3 and the king]

A professional cat nutritionist, yes. Speaking to my vet or a dog nutritionist or the acupuncturist would do no good, because none of them are trained in cat nutrition. I would no sooner take a vet's word on cat nutrition (unless he/she had gotten specific training in the subject) than I would take the word of people on a forum. As in, I would listen to what they had to say and then go research other sources. Sadly, in my experience, vets give THE WORST nutritional advice (my vet says: "doesn't really matter. Anything with a brand name on it should be OK. But not Ol' Roy. Purina's pretty good. . .").
.

Phoebe is on my lap right now purring contently.... She says "Rrrrrrrrrooooooooowwww!" in agreement!!

 

[ldg]

LDG and WhollyCat, I appereciate your input and concern. But telling me that you are "concerned" and my cats diets are "unbalanced" is not at all setting well with me. Just because I don't do things the way you do is not wrong. I have researched it and taken into consideration my own vets advice.

Honestly, upon further reflection, I really don’t understand the hostility. A discussion about supplementation evolved out of your original comments about King Arthur eating his normally cooked chicken breast raw. Sally asked how you prepare it, and there was no mention of calcium supplementation. I can’t speak for the others, but I like to learn. You’re a vet student, and I’d naturally assume you’d find discussion, exchange, and debate about nutritional aspects of cat care interesting. :dk: If, in discussion of what I’m feeding my cats the issue of my under- or over-supplementing something came up, I’d want to know what the thinking is so I could look into it. I’m very, very confused as to why discussion of a nutritional component of a diet is being taken as a personal attack.


[quote name="P3 and The King" url="/t/243850/an-interesting-development-tonight/30#post_3201266]And unless the advice is asked for, I would recommend on subjects like this to keep opinions to yourself. [/quote]

But the issue of a proper Ca ratio in homemade pet food isn’t opinion. Perhaps how to get there, or what the ratio should be has room for opinion – but that it is important isn’t opinion. :scratch:

…Not just my vets, but also my professors agree with my choices and it is indeed balanced. They are professionals. They know more about my cats than anyone on the forum besides myself. So I will take their word over that.

I appreciate that. :nod: But I continue to remain curious as to why – or rather, how – feeding what appears to be a mostly meat-only diet without more calcium is balanced, or why it doesn’t need to be balanced. There must be a component of the diet I’m missing, or different thinking on the Ca ratio. And if it’s different thinking on the Ca ratio, that’s interesting. !!

But IMO, what’s happening here is kind of like when I took Chumley to the holistic vet for the first time (for chronic diarrhea and allergies). The first thing we did was review his diet. Her reaction was strong, and she said there was no reason for a cat to eat kibble ever. She explained her thinking. But if she didn’t, that’s the equivalent of what’s happening in this thread. And you’re not a vet (yet), and I’m not your client, and you’re not being paid for this. But I put it out there for your consideration, just in case you’re able to take a step back and see that NONE of this is personal. It’s a normal kind of discussion in a nutrition/raw feeding forum. “I feed my cat mostly meat.” “Have you considered the issue of balancing calcium?” “Yes, I forgot to mention, I feed bones four times a week,” or “No, is that an issue?”

Only in this instance, it seems you feed a calcium supplement that’s balanced with phosphorus. It leaves us wondering how the diet is balanced. :scratch: …and wondering why discussing the topic is an issue. :dk:

I do appreciate your input and I do not wish to offend anyone. Lets just agree to disagree. This topic is closed. Thank you.

Obviously you don’t need to address the question further if you have no desire, though I really hope you can see this isn’t personal. Again, I’m not sure why it’s such a sensitive issue – I think we’re all interested in learning. :dk: But I’m really not clear on what we’re agreeing to disagree on. That phosphorus needs to be balanced with calcium isn’t something to agree or disagree with.

Exactly. But too much is definitely not good. It's a touchy issue because no one likes to be told they aren't doing it right...

We don’t know that you’re not “doing it right,” we asked. :dk:



[quote name="P3 and The King" url="/t/243850/an-interesting-development-tonight/30#post_3201266] …Unfortunately we live in a society that is very open and outspoken but also judgmental. We all want to "1 up" the next "parent" whether it be a child or a cat, etc... [/quote]

But this isn’t about “1 upping” or judging. It’s about learning.

 

[redvelvetone]

Quick question, and not to sidetrack, but now I am a little concerned about what I'm feeding my cat. I was sort of partially feeding him raw.

He gets one 5.5 oz of can of grain-free wet food a day and then a couple of ounces of raw in the evening. Maybe 2.5 ounces? I am not really measuring. Normally the raw part has been chicken breast, but with no supplementation.

I just started to give him one wing each week to see what he'd do with it and if he could take to bone. He's eaten two wings now but he seems to be mostly leaving the bone part. I am considering picking up a cleaver so I can chop it up a bit to help it out. I did buy some Nature's Variety Raw medallions to give him. Sometimes he eats it. sometimes he does not.  I know that has bone in it. I'm not sure if I'll continue feeding him that or not if he's indifferent about eating it. I also give him organs once a week (giblets).

So if I continue feeding him the chicken breast am I going to give him health problems if I don't supplement it or is getting the calcium from his wet food enough? If I have to start doing a lot of supplementing that I may just stick to wet food with the occasional raw treat.

Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack, I was just following this discussion and I started to get concerned....

 

[mschauer]

Quick question, and not to sidetrack, but now I am a little concerned about what I'm feeding my cat. I was sort of partially feeding him raw.

He gets one 5.5 oz of can of grain-free wet food a day and then a couple of ounces of raw in the evening. Maybe 2.5 ounces? I am not really measuring. Normally the raw part has been chicken breast, but with no supplementation.

I just started to give him one wing each week to see what he'd do with it and if he could take to bone. He's eaten two wings now but he seems to be mostly leaving the bone part. I am considering picking up a cleaver so I can chop it up a bit to help it out. I did buy some Nature's Variety Raw medallions to give him. Sometimes he eats it. sometimes he does not.  I know that has bone in it. I'm not sure if I'll continue feeding him that or not if he's indifferent about eating it. I also give him organs once a week (giblets).

So if I continue feeding him the chicken breast am I going to give him health problems if I don't supplement it or is getting the calcium from his wet food enough? If I have to start doing a lot of supplementing that I may just stick to wet food with the occasional raw treat.

Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack, I was just following this discussion and I started to get concerned....

If that much of his diet is going to be raw you might think about investing in one of the premixes (TCFeline, Alnutrin, etc) that when combined with raw meat makes a complete and balanced food. It's more than just calcium that is needed.

 

[p3 and the king]

LDG, I was not being hostile.  I do not mean to come across that way.  So if you took it as so, I do apologize.  But, people, I've said my peace.  My darlings have a balanced and good diet.  I said several times to please just drop it... People keep pick, pick, picking at it.  I backed myself up as did you guys.  It's closed as far as I am concerned.  I respect everyones thoughts and opinions but I am not going to change anything about what I am doing.  My nutrition professor believes this is crazy and hysterical.  If anyone else wants to "talk" amongst themselves about it... That is fine.  I am not being hostile.  That is all I have to say on the matter. 

 

[mschauer]

P3, I know you've said you don't want to discuss this any more so please feel free to ignore this:

I just want to see if I understand: Both you and your nutrition professor believe that cooked chicken breast plus the calcium supplement you use makes a complete and balanced diet for a cat?

 

[redvelvetone]

crap. that is what I was afraid of.

I think I'll go back to giving him raw as treats instead of meals.

 

[ldg]

Yeah, 2.5 ounces of 8 ounces is about 30% of his diet. :nod: If he likes liver, you could feed him 1.5oz of liver twice a week, and supplement the calcium. To do that, you can either give him a little less than 2 capsules of NOW's MCHA ( ) sprinkled on the breast (my cats love it), or 5/64 teaspoon of eggshell powder sprinkled on (mine also like that LOL). I use these measuring spoons: (a "drop" is 1/64 and a "smidge" is 1/32) and this eggshell supplement: (Scroll down for the eggshell powder) http://knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html

The Alnutrin Supplement mschauer referred to is also on that page.

OR you could use the Wysong Call of the Wild supplement - it's meant to balance just meat. http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php (If you order from Wysong, you get free shipping with the code FREESHIPJX). My cats LOVE the taste of it! For 2.5 oz, you'd need a little less than a teaspoon.

 

[Willowy]

On my dog forum, the general thought of how much "unbalanced" food you can give a dog without supplementing is up to 50%! Nobody has really been able to explain why to me, though. I know dogs' don't have as exacting of nutritional needs as cats do, but yikes. I think 50% is pretty significant.

Just to clarify, when we say 15% of the diet, is that by calories or by volume?

 

[mschauer]

On my dog forum, the general thought of how much "unbalanced" food you can give a dog without supplementing is up to 50%! Nobody has really been able to explain why to me, though. I know dogs' don't have as exacting of nutritional needs as cats do, but yikes. I think 50% is pretty significant.

Just to clarify, when we say 15% of the diet, is that by calories or by volume?

That's a good point. The "how much before supplementing" is really just a rule of thumb. I think it is basically a guess based in part on the belief that generally commercial processed foods are formulated to err on the side of a bit too much of each nutrient rather than too little. 50% seems too high to me too but I can't say I know for sure.

I've always thought it was % of the food weight but since it is just a vague rule of thumb volume would be just as good.

 

[p3 and the king]

P3, I know you've said you don't want to discuss this any more so please feel free to ignore this:

I just want to see if I understand: Both you and your nutrition professor believe that cooked chicken breast plus the calcium supplement you use makes a complete and balanced diet for a cat?

I will say this ONE MORE TIME... They get 1/2 a days serving of grain free kibble in the mornings... So, they do not need more calcium than 2 (sometimes 3) times a week because cat food has all the neccessary nutrients in it.  And the lysine I put on is balanced specifically to keep my 2 Persian girls eyes looking clear and to boost the immunity of the others a little.  Too much calcium is not good and the kibble more than makes up for it... I have the tablets to balance it out a little more as I only give 1/2 a days serving in the morning with the canned chicken (which also has almost the difference in the amount of nutrients they need).  So, you can clearly see they do not need it everyday and they do not need the stuff that is added to raw.   

I don't mean for that to come across as shouting... I am not.  But people misunderstand and think that's all they get is the cooked meat... Not so.  That is why I am having trouble understanding why everyone is griping about them not having enough nutrients.  My nutrition professor told me today "another way to go is maybe giving them each 1/2 a calcium tablet a day?  But, other than that, it is more than fine and good."

 

[Willowy]

I don't think it's the calcium that people are talking about (mostly). It's that the calcium supplement you use has phosphorus, and the meat has phosphorus, so the calcium/phosphorus ratios are wacky. If you were using a calcium supplement without phosphorus I think they wouldn't have an issue with it. Or that's my understanding. Ask your professor what his thoughts are on phosphorus/calcium ratios. . .I'm curious.

 

[mschauer]

P3, I know you've said you don't want to discuss this any more so please feel free to ignore this:

I just want to see if I understand: Both you and your nutrition professor believe that cooked chicken breast plus the calcium supplement you use makes a complete and balanced diet for a cat?

I will say this ONE MORE TIME... They get 1/2 a days serving of grain free kibble in the mornings... So, they do not need more calcium than 2 (sometimes 3) times a week because cat food has all the neccessary nutrients in it.  And the lysine I put on is balanced specifically to keep my 2 Persian girls eyes looking clear and to boost the immunity of the others a little.  Too much calcium is not good and the kibble more than makes up for it... I have the tablets to balance it out a little more as I only give 1/2 a days serving in the morning with the canned chicken (which also has almost the difference in the amount of nutrients they need).  So, you can clearly see they do not need it everyday and they do not need the stuff that is added to raw.   

I don't mean for that to come across as shouting... I am not.  But people misunderstand and think that's all they get is the cooked meat... Not so.  That is why I am having trouble understanding why everyone is griping about them not having enough nutrients.  My nutrition professor told me today "another way to go is maybe giving them each 1/2 a calcium tablet a day?  But, other than that, it is more than fine and good."

I do understand that 1 of the 2 meals you feed in a day is a commercial processed food (kibble) that is, presumably, known to be nutritionally complete and balanced.

What is in question is whether what you feed for the other meal of the day is nutritionally complete and balanced. That is why I asked only about that meal. 

In order for a cats diet to be nutritionally complete and balanced, the total diet has to be considered. If 1/2 of the diet is complete and balanced and the other 1/2 is not then the total diet more than likely is not complete and balanced.

You keep talking as if you think that all it takes to make the cooked chicken you feed nutritionally complete and balanced is the addition of calcium. I don't know why you keep bringing up the L-lysine.

So, I'll try one more time: Do you believe that the cooked chicken you feed with the addition of the calcium supplement to be a nutritionally complete and balanced diet for a cat?

 

[mschauer]

I don't think it's the calcium that people are talking about (mostly). It's that the calcium supplement you use has phosphorus, and the meat has phosphorus, so the calcium/phosphorus ratios are wacky. If you were using a calcium supplement without phosphorus I think they wouldn't have an issue with it. Or that's my understanding. Ask your professor what his thoughts are on phosphorus/calcium ratios. . .I'm curious.

I'm addressing more than just Ca.

 

[whollycat]

I will say this ONE MORE TIME... They get 1/2 a days serving of grain free kibble in the mornings... So, they do not need more calcium than 2 (sometimes 3) times a week because cat food has all the neccessary nutrients in it.  And the lysine I put on is balanced specifically to keep my 2 Persian girls eyes looking clear and to boost the immunity of the others a little.  Too much calcium is not good and the kibble more than makes up for it... I have the tablets to balance it out a little more as I only give 1/2 a days serving in the morning with the canned chicken (which also has almost the difference in the amount of nutrients they need).  So, you can clearly see they do not need it everyday and they do not need the stuff that is added to raw.   

I don't mean for that to come across as shouting... I am not.  But people misunderstand and think that's all they get is the cooked meat... Not so.  That is why I am having trouble understanding why everyone is griping about them not having enough nutrients.  My nutrition professor told me today "another way to go is maybe giving them each 1/2 a calcium tablet a day?  But, other than that, it is more than fine and good."

I totally understand about the Lysine, especially with your sweet Persian girls. I would do the same.

I'm back to the Pet Tabs to try to understand your reasoning for giving this instead of a calcium-only supplement. Here are my thoughts: Pet Tabs are not just calcium--it has phosphorus in it too, so it is balanced unto itself (cahos ratio of approx 1.2:1)--whereas the chicken meat is not. The Pet Tabs are meant to be fed as a total supplement since it has phosphorus also, and other vitamins (if I remember correctly). What you might consider is getting a calcium only supplement. I do see where you're coming from, but you are going to end up with an excess of phosphorus in their diet by using the Pet Tabs. A half a calcium tablet a day would be fine, as your professor said, with my caveat--as long as it doesn't have phosphorus in it too, like Pet Tabs has. (Maybe have him look at the ingredients in Pet Tabs?) Does that make sense?

Nutrients for cooked or raw food is a whole other topic. They vary from animal to animal that are fed to our kitties--and even different parts of the same animal have different nutrient profiles; e.g. chicken breast has different nutrients in different quantities than thigh meat.

So not picking on you, but just wondering why do you feed kibble? Maybe I missed why? One of the biggest reasons I gave up kibble years ago is that kitties don't have the thirst mechanism that dogs and humans do and therefore don't have the "drive" to drink enough water. Being originally desert dwelling, they need to get most of the water they consume from what they eat. That darn thirst mechanism just isn't there. One good thing is that by supplementing your kitties diet with the cooked chicken, they do get additional water from that source, but not as much as they would with raw (yes, I said that darn 'raw' word

sorry!).

A link with an excerpt from veterinarian Dr. Jean Hofve:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-dry-food-is-bad-for-cats-and-dogs/

"5. Dehydration
Obviously, dry food is dry. This is a big problem for cats, whose ancestors are desert-dwelling wild cats. They have passed on to our pets their super-efficient kidneys, which are designed to extract every last drop of moisture from prey animals. As a result, cats have a low thirst drive, and don’t drink water until they are about 3% dehydrated—a dehydration level at which veterinarians would consider giving intravenous fluids. Dogs will drink more readily, so they are not as prone to the damaging effects of chronic dehydration."

I had to transition my confirmed kibble-head Abby off kibble, to canned, then we went raw. You would have thought he was going to die without his beloved kibble! But we made the transition, although it wasn't easy. He didn't go without food, especially since he was a few pounds overweight at the time. I started the transition when his brother Tuffy was diagnosed with CRF/CKD to canned when they were both around 2-1/2. Then when Maxie came here and developed EGC, it was on to raw. On raw, Abby slowly lost the excess weight and is a very spry, kitten-like, almost 16-year-old.

I truly wish the best for you and your kitties, P3. I really feel this discussion is important so that we can all learn; I hope you feel the same way.

 

[klag]

While I'm not 100% sure what just happened in this thread, I did want to point out that I feed my cats a rotation of grain free canned foods, commercially prepared raw foods (Rad Cat, Natures Variety, Stella & Chewy's), and grain free/starch free kibble (Epigen-90).  At this point in time, I'm not feeding regualar raw with any supplements. 

However, I do supplement their diets with McDonalds, Mac & Cheese and Captain Crunch.

 

[ldg]

I'm not sure what happened either, but thanks for the laugh!

My poor babies are deprived - they get the equivalent of carrots and celery. :anon: I'm such a mean meowmy.

 

[mschauer]

P3, this is an analysis of your cooked chicken breast with Pet Tab food:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0ByPP2-Qsfkh4N1RfdnlIWlBRMDA

(Sorry for the poor quality. The conversion from PDF to Google docs format didnt work so good.) 

The analysis is for 1 week of the diet. It assumes 3 Pet Tabs given during the week and 4 oz of cooked chicken breast a day. The nutrient data for the Pet Tabs is from the product label. The nutrient data for the cooked chicken breast is from the USDA nutrient database.

You can ignore the results for iodine and taurine because the USDA database does not contain values for those.

You can also ignore the fatty acids, manganese and vitamin K values as there is little information on how much of those a cat really needs.

That still leaves deficiencies in the following nutrients: calcium, zinc, iron, copper, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, thiamin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid , folic acid, vitamin b12. 

The calcium ratio below the minimum 1:1 is what LDG and others have been trying to warn you about. The other deficiencies should be of concern also.