An interesting development tonight!!

[p3 and the king]

I think I understand what you're saying.

You feed cooked, not raw. Right? I'm going to assume this is right, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. So, here goes...whether cooked or raw, ground or whole chunks, you would still need to add a calcium supplement to balance the high phosphorus content, low calcium, in the meat. Deficiencies (or excess) can cause major problems down the road. Cooking also depletes a lot of nutrients (especially taurine) in meat--okay, I'm

now.

If you're talking about the stuff the vet recommended that you "put on," that doesn't have calcium in it. Color me a wee bit confused.

 

And hey, you can call me Jules (or not

), WhollyCat is just my username that I used when I signed up here.

Yes, I feed cooked.  But, they have a calcium supplement that they get everyday... http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/.../images/products/23280.jpg&lr=t&bw=520&bh=520   I give it to them by hand.  They think it's a treat!

  Shhhh don't tell them!!  I put on the other stuff for the Persians eyes and it boost immunity. 

Nice to meet you Jules!

 

[ldg]

I guess no one read the part where I said I messed up that day.. I normally put it on their breakfast meal which I do not cook.  I had messed up that day.  No need to worry.   I am not feeding raw right now. Normally it's breast and not ground meat.  Sometimes they get thigh or leg meat, too. But normally breast.. It seems to be their favorite.  But thanks for the information WhollyCat!!

I did see that. :nod: And I'm not try to be nit-picky or critical, I'm just concerned. I know you're a vet student, and you've done some work on nutrition. But my concern (after you addressed that question about cooking the lysine, I did see that) was not the lysine, but other supplements to address other nutrients that would be missing from the cooked food, which seems to be more than 15% of your kitty's diet.

I think I understand what you're saying. You feed cooked, not raw. Right? I'm going to assume this is right, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. So, here goes...whether cooked or raw, ground or whole chunks, you would still need to add a calcium supplement to balance the high phosphorus content, low calcium, in the meat. Deficiencies (or excess) can cause major problems down the road. Cooking also depletes a lot of nutrients (especially taurine) in meat--okay, I'm :dash: now.

If you're talking about the stuff the vet recommended that you "put on," that doesn't have calcium in it. Color me a wee bit confused. :jaw:  

And hey, you can call me Jules (or not ), WhollyCat is just my username that I used when I signed up here.

Yes, I feed cooked. But, they have a calcium supplement that they get everyday... http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/.../images/products/23280.jpg&lr=t&bw=520&bh=520 I give it to them by hand. They think it's a treat! Shhhh don't tell them!! I put on the other stuff for the Persians eyes and it boost immunity.

Nice to meet you Jules!

Yes, lysine is a very common supplement, and many, many of us use it. Most of us buy a lysine powder so there are no other ingredients, and just sprinkle it on the food. Even my picky kitties don't seem to mind it - I don't think it has any taste. :dk: Rescue kitties almost always come with herpes, and lysine has been shown in clinical studies to reduce replication of the herpes virus. :nod: I'm really glad it helps your kitty's eyes.


No, the concern was the amount of calcium and taurine (or other needed amino acids that cats can't synthesize and that are degraded by cooking, like arginine) in your kitty's diet.

As I understand it, this is the calcium supplement you're using: http://www.pet-tabs.us/new/product/pet_tabs_calcium_for_dogs_cats/

Ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Malted Milk, Corn Syrup, Soy Flour, Spray-dried Whey, Nonfat Milk Powder, Wheat Flour, Dried Buttermilk, Brewers Dried Yeast, Magnesium Stearate, Corn Oil, Tricalcium Phosphate, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

It says about it: "Benefit: Provides a dietary source of calcium, phosphorus, and Vitamin D to help maintain healthy teeth and bones." (emphasis added).

As a retailer says about it ( http://www.countrysidepet.com/pet-tabs-calcium180ct.aspx ), It is "A palatable, chewable tablet containing calcium, phosphorous and vitamin D in a carefully balanced formula." (Again the emphasis is added).

Again, I am not trying to be nit-picky or critical. I am only trying to address information you may not have considered, and your vet seems not to have addressed. :dk:

I'm sure you know that the Ca ratio is important. In fact, potentially critically important. Since the supplement you're giving appears to be a balanced Ca ratio, then it is not working to balance the lack of calcium in the phosphorus-rich meat.I provide this information only because a calcium deficiency is not something that shows up in blood work until it's too late and there's already a problem (slack jaw being the most common), because people and animals rob their bones for the needed calcium, so blood levels will always appear OK, until there's already a problem with brittle bones or slack jaw.

From the USDA database "Nutrient data for 05064, Chicken, broilers or fryers, breast, meat only, cooked, roasted" ( http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/s...max=25&offset=25&sort=&qlookup=chicken+breast ), one ounce of cooked chicken breast has 4mg of calcium, and 65mg of phosphorus. That's a Ca ratio of 0.06:1. I don't know how much chicken breast you feed, but it's the relative Ca amounts that matter, not the absolute amount.

I couldn't find enough information on the Pet Tab site to figure out what the Ca ratio of the supplement is - but it appears to be a BALANCED supplement, as it includes phosphorus. They do provide the guaranteed analysis, but it is in percentages. They do not provide the amount of elemental calcium (or phosphorus) in the supplement.

To balance one ounce of chicken breast to bring it up to a Ca ratio of a minimum of 1.1:1, you need to add 68mg of (just) elemental calcium. Like Jules, I use a Ca ratio of 1.3:1. To bring it up to that, you need to add 81mg of calcium per ounce. ANY additional phosphorus means you need to add MORE calcium.

I feed a boneless raw diet. I use microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite (MCHA) (by NOW - it's the only one without other additives) and eggshell (which is 95% calcium carbonate and 39% elemental calcium with essentially no phosphorus) as my calcium supplements. Because MCHA is freeze-dried bone (NOT bone meal, which I won't use for a number of reasons), it includes phosphorus; eggshell does not. To provide the proper Ca ratio, I have to take into account the amount of phosphorus in the MCHA (and the meat), and calculate how much to use based on the elemental calcium in each supplement.

Just food for thought.

 

[p3 and the king]

The lysine is a powder.  I mix it in a bit with their breakfast as it does have a slight flavor and they won't eat it if I just sprinkle it on top.  The calcium chews I give I don't give every day-(I realize I had a typo last post, I meant to say "every other day" but that's not exactly even true.. It is about 2 to 3 times a week).  It is not good to over-vitaminize a cat just like it's not good for people.  My vet recommends twice a week with the calcium chews and once a day with the lysine powder.  So that's what I do.  They are very healthy.  He says they are the healthiest cats he's ever seen.  I rarely have to take any of them in for illnesses.  Piper, in fact, was 5 years old before she'd ever gotten sick at all!! 

I want to give them dark meat as it is not only tastier to them but it is more "gamey" like they would eat normally.  So I try to give them leg meat as much as possible.  But for some reason, they prefer the breasts meat?  I'd understand if they were all boys!!!

Thanks for the information LDG... I am still testing them to see if they will take it raw... So far, only King Arthur and just a couple of bites. 

 

[ldg]

A home made diet, raw or cooked, IMO, is better than commercial canned or kibble. Nothing wrong with feeding cooked. I prefer raw.

But raw or cooked, they need the proper calcium, and in the right ratio for the amount of phosphorus in the diet. And if cooked, they need - at a minimum - taurine. I'm surprised your vet didn't discuss this with you. Perhaps the Pet Tabs get the chicken breast to the right Ca ratio. I'd be surprised, since they include phosphorus. But inclusion of phosphorus doesn't mean that it doesn't get there. But without knowing how much elemental calcium and how much phosphorus is in them, it's simply not possible to know.

I'm glad your kitties are healthy and haven't ever been sick. But on ANY diet, many cats do well, look great, and seem to thrive - until they don't. :dk:

I thought my cats were thriving on kibble. Then I switched to all wet. And THEN I thought they were REALLY thriving. Until I switched them to raw.

I'm not pushing for you to feed your cats raw. Feed them whatever you want, and whatever is comfortable for you. I'm just providing information your vet apparently did not, and that may be important long term.

 

[p3 and the king]

It's not just my vets word, I take into consideration what I am studying.  True, I am leaning toward the Behaviorists more but it's all the same studies.  I know that if they seem a little run down (like during allergy season- which is still going on), I might give them 3 calcium chews a week... If they seem good, it's only 2.  I don't want to overdo it. 

As for what I feed them... It's what works for them and for me.  At first, my concern was finding a diet that Phoebe could handle that they all would also enjoy.  I didn't want to leave her out.  Poor girl.  But I also didn't want to deprive the others because she can't eat "yummies" (my word for wet CAT food).  So, through it all, I have found a balance that works and they seem to thrive on.  I am happy.  They are happy... For now.  Who knows what the future holds?

Thanks again!!

 

[whollycat]

As for what I feed them... It's what works for them and for me.  At first, my concern was finding a diet that Phoebe could handle that they all would also enjoy.  I didn't want to leave her out.  Poor girl.  But I also didn't want to deprive the others because she can't eat "yummies" (my word for wet CAT food).  So, through it all, I have found a balance that works and they seem to thrive on.  I am happy.  They are happy... For now.  Who knows what the future holds.

Okay, I'm going to tell you a little story.

A few years ago I was an expert on Ask the Expert online regarding cats. A woman asked a question regarding her a little over two-year-old kitty that was doing very poorly, and on the brink of her having to PTS. He had a lack of energy, lameness, skin and hair problems, and a whole host of other problems. Since diet is a good beginning to figure out the problem, I asked her what she fed her kitty. Her answer: Just meat. How long? His entire life. To keep a long story short, we ended up privately emailing each other. I explained the importance of balancing calcium to phosphorus in her kitty's diet and helped her to get her kitty back on track (with the addition of other supplements too--most importantly taurine). It took over six months for her kitty to mostly recover, and to this day he is doing great.

In summary:

Calcium and phosphorous work together in the body to maintain the growth and structure of the skeletal system. Deficiencies or excesses of both can create skeletal problems. It is very important that the calcium and phosphorous be fed in the correct ratio.

Kitties require a high amount of taurine for their body functions because they have limited enzymes which can produce taurine from other amino acids such as methionine and cysteine. Therefore, they need a diet high in taurine. If taurine is deficient, signs such as a heart condition called dilated cardiomyopathy, and retinal degeneration can occur.

I'm sorry, but "Who knows what the future holds" is concerning to me for your kitties and makes me sad. As a vet in training, you sound a bit too unconcerned to me, hon. Please don't take this the wrong way--we may not be "vets" but I have to say that a lot of us know more about cat physiology than a lot of vets, and vets spend way too little time on what a species appropriate diet is for cats only.

Those Pet-Tabs are not an appropriate calcium supplement for balancing the meat-only portion of their diet--the minimum and maximum percentages are not giving the whole picture--I emailed the company for a DM basis.

I'm off to snuggle my bubbies...and maybe break out Da Bird.

 

[ldg]

To be clear, that was on wet CAT food she had problems with... Even the ones prescribed by the vet.  Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Felidae, etc.. We both decided it must be because of the "gravies" and "sauces" in cat food that are used to enhance flavor and preserve.  They are not needed and in fact, can encourage allergic type reactions (like Phoebe has to them).  Most pet foods, even the high grade stuff is made from meat but the meat that isn't fit for human consumption.  So, in a way, they get our leftover in pet food (dogs, too) 

Yes, that was my point. And many grain-free wet cat foods include all kinds of veggies that aren't species-appropriate. And grain-free is definitely not synonymous with low carb. So many canned foods aren't species-appropriate anyway.

And you're correct. Almost all commercial canned and kibble foods are made not "in a way" from "our leftover(s) in pet foods," they ARE made from the garbage from the human food chain. And from worse - meat that wouldn't even be considered to be a part of the human food chain. Besides, considering the garbage from the human food chain winds up as pink slime in our hamburgers and hot dogs and such, the garbage from the garbage of the human food chain is what winds up in pet food. Again, I expect you know this already.

Don't know if you ever saw the article I wrote on the subject ( http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...y-cat-or-i-can-afford-to-feed-commercial-raw/ ) but it includes a short review of the study done by Drs. Nestle (the Paulette Goddard Professor of nutrition, food studies and public health at New York University), and Malden C. Nesheim, (Emeritus Professor of nutrition at Cornell University), who examined the value of pet food products and the claims made for them. They found little difference in ingredients between premium and supermarket brands. The results were not surprising to them as "All pet foods are made from the byproducts of human food production." I have to laugh - the FDA was recently discussing how to label out-of-date hot pockets if used in pet food. And that is an ingredient that would be better than many that are already in pet food. :lol3:

 

[ldg]

It's not just my vets word, I take into consideration what I am studying.  True, I am leaning toward the Behaviorists more but it's all the same studies.  I know that if they seem a little run down (like during allergy season- which is still going on), I might give them 3 calcium chews a week... If they seem good, it's only 2.  I don't want to overdo it. 

As for what I feed them... It's what works for them and for me.  At first, my concern was finding a diet that Phoebe could handle that they all would also enjoy.  I didn't want to leave her out.  Poor girl.  But I also didn't want to deprive the others because she can't eat "yummies" (my word for wet CAT food).  So, through it all, I have found a balance that works and they seem to thrive on.  I am happy.  They are happy... For now.  Who knows what the future holds?

Thanks again!!

...Calcium and phosphorous work together in the body to maintain the growth and structure of the skeletal system. Deficiencies or excesses of both can create skeletal problems. It is very important that the calcium and phosphorous be fed in the correct ratio.

Kitties require a high amount of taurine for their body functions because they have limited enzymes which can produce taurine from other amino acids such as methionine and cysteine. Therefore, they need a diet high in taurine. If taurine is deficient, signs such as a heart condition called dilated cardiomyopathy, and retinal degeneration can occur.

I'm sorry, but "Who knows what the future holds" is concerning to me for your kitties and makes me sad. As a vet in training, you sound a bit too unconcerned to me, hon. Please don't take this the wrong way--we may not be "vets" but I have to say that a lot of us know more about cat physiology than a lot of vets, and vets spend way too little time on what a species appropriate diet is for cats only.

Those Pet-Tabs are not an appropriate calcium supplement for balancing the meat-only portion of their diet--the minimum and maximum percentages are not giving the whole picture--I emailed the company for a DM basis.

I'm off to snuggle my bubbies...and maybe break out Da Bird.

Very glad your kitties are happy, P3. :nod: Your "balance that works," unfortunately, doesn't appear to be nutritionally balanced. Of course I'm very pleased your kitty with special diet needs is not having problems. Yet. I hope she never has any. :cross:

 

[p3 and the king]

LDG and WhollyCat, I appereciate your input and concern.  But telling me that you are "concerned" and my cats diets are "unbalanced" is not at all setting well with me.  Just because I don't do things the way you do is not wrong.  I have researched it and taken into consideration my own vets advice.  If you don't like it, fine, it is not your concern.  This is what works for me and for them now.  Maybe I have things to say about the way you feed or vitaminize your pets.  Overdoing is not good.  And many people do overdo it... And not realize it.   My cats are perfectly healthy and I will not be switching to raw at this time and I don't know if I ever will.  As for the lysine... I've explained my reasons.  As for the pet tabs, you may not "agree" with them... But they are just for extra and they don't get it but twice to three times a week.  You don't have to agree with it but I will not be told that I am doing something wrong by someone who does not even know my darlings and does not have the medical training. Please leave it alone. It is starting to upset me.  This subject is closed, as far as I am concerned.  Thank you.  Again, I do apperciate your input and thoughts on it but it is off subject and it was not asked for.  Thank you!  Good day!!

 

[ldg]

Sorry to have upset you, but it is a public forum. The information is now out there for others reading the thread to see. No offense was meant, as mentioned. Like I said, hope your kitty will continue to do fine and not ever experience any problems.

 

[ldg]

Just because I don't do things the way you do is not wrong.

No one is criticizing you for doing things differently. :dk:

I have researched it and taken into consideration my own vets advice. If you don't like it, fine, it is not your concern. This is what works for me and for them now.

It was a discussion that evolved out of what your cats are eating. It's a public forum. If you're not worried about or interested in the Ca ratio of your kitty's diet, it's still information others ought to have.

Maybe I have things to say about the way you feed or vitaminize your pets. Overdoing is not good. And many people do overdo it... And not realize it.

I absolutely agree. There are several threads on here where I discuss how I feed my cats and the supplements I use. Please, feel free to comment.

My cats are perfectly healthy and I will not be switching to raw at this time and I don't know if I ever will.

And no one is pushing you to or being critical of you for not feeding raw. :dk:

As for the lysine... I've explained my reasons.

Who has an issue with the lysine? Not sure what this comment has to do with anything. Almost all of us use lysine. It only came up because you mentioned it was cooked. But you clarified that.

As for the pet tabs, you may not "agree" with them... But they are just for extra and they don't get it but twice to three times a week.

It's not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing with the Pet Tabs. The point was the need for a proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio in diet - cat, dog, human, whatever. There isn't enough information on the Pet Tab website to give anyone - you, me, a vet - any idea of how much elemental calcium or phosphorus is in the supplement. "Agreeing" with your choices is moot. The only point was that you may have made the decision to feed meat to your cat without much in the way of supplementation or worrying about the proper calcium balance - but other people joining the site or reading this thread ought to know that the Calciumhosphorus balance is critically important when considering home made diets. And TCS site is about education. One doesn't need a degree in nutrition to understand meat needs to be balanced with calcium because it is high in phosphorus with little calcium. :dk: Your decision not to worry about something proven to be of long term importance in diet is up to you and your vet, certainly. But others need to know it's an issue, IMO.

You don't have to agree with it but I will not be told that I am doing something wrong by someone who does not even know my darlings and does not have the medical training.

Again, I'm sorry you got upset (though I'm really not clear why). One doesn't need a degree in nutrition to understand meat needs to be balanced with calcium because it is high in phosphorus with little calcium. :dk: The information and studies are readily available. Again - the site is about education, and you have made your decisions. Our further input is not appreciated, you've made that clear. Fine. That's great! But others just learning may find the information helpful or valuable, and it's important input for people new to the process of making home made food.

Please leave it alone. It is starting to upset me. This subject is closed, as far as I am concerned. Thank you. Again, I do apperciate your input and thoughts on it but it is off subject and it was not asked for. Thank you! Good day!!

No, it naturally evolved out of the discussion about what your kitties were eating - or not. The information was meant to inform, not criticize.

 

[whollycat]

LDG and WhollyCat, I appereciate your input and concern.  But telling me that you are "concerned" and my cats diets are "unbalanced" is not at all setting well with me.  Just because I don't do things the way you do is not wrong.  I have researched it and taken into consideration my own vets advice.  If you don't like it, fine, it is not your concern.  This is what works for me and for them now.  Maybe I have things to say about the way you feed or vitaminize your pets.  Overdoing is not good.  And many people do overdo it... And not realize it.   My cats are perfectly healthy and I will not be switching to raw at this time and I don't know if I ever will.  As for the lysine... I've explained my reasons.  As for the pet tabs, you may not "agree" with them... But they are just for extra and they don't get it but twice to three times a week.  You don't have to agree with it but I will not be told that I am doing something wrong by someone who does not even know my darlings and does not have the medical training. Please leave it alone. It is starting to upset me.  This subject is closed, as far as I am concerned.  Thank you.  Again, I do apperciate your input and thoughts on it but it is off subject and it was not asked for.  Thank you!  Good day!!

Sorry if you are offended by what has been discussed.

All I can say is that you need to do more research--and I mean this in the kindest way. We all do things differently, but the facts that you don't seem to be getting are that you HAVE to have a balance with the cahos ratio and add additional taurine when feeding cooked meat only, or raw meat with bones--those two facts are undisputed and proven--whether we feed raw, cooked, canned, etc. With canned or kibble you can check the labels, and cahos ratio will vary a lot depending on brand, as can taurine.

If you want to say something about the vitamins I feed my cats, let me hear it. If I'm overdoing it, or not enough, I would welcome the input.

I've got a headache.

Best regards,

 

[p3 and the king]

I understand that.  I do.  But people need to stay on topic.  Besides that, not all information is good and accurate information. (I am not pointing any fingers.) I would recommend speaking with a professional on this topic and not just taking information on a forum before doing anything on diet or health.  That is a huge problem that a lot have with raw feeding is that so much extra that is not needed is put into it, thinking that they need it and it balances it out.  Most cases, it might be true.  But diet by diet is different.  Plus, there is the factor of too many supplements and vitamins and such.  Most don't realize they're doing too much.  And unless the advice is asked for, I would recommend on subjects like this to keep opinions to yourself.  I do appereciate it.  Not just my vets, but also my professors agree with my choices and it is indeed balanced.  They are professionals.  They know more about my cats than anyone on the forum besides myself.  So I will take their word over that. 

I am not saying anyone is wrong but telling me I need to do my research makes me laugh because clearly it is not I who needs to research on over supplementing and balancing!  That is my opinion. 

I do appereciate your input and I do not wish to offend anyone.  Lets just agree to disagree. This topic is closed.  Thank you. 

 

[p3 and the king]

To back up what I have said about my cat's meals being balanced and how people commonly over supplement...

Are Cat Vitamins and Supplements Necessary?

Cat supplement manufacturers and advocates say such products should be seen as an extension of a cat’s diet, adding that they can help the pets live longer, healthier lives.

Others, including Cruz and members of the Pet Food Institute, say if your cat is generally healthy, a good quality cat food is all that’s needed. Giving your cat more vitamins or minerals could cause more harm than good.

Supplements may be recommended if your cat is sick.

“There are some circumstances where a cat has an underlying condition that may warrant a supplement, but many supplements are untested and unproven in veterinary medicine. The key point is that most cats consuming a complete and balanced diet probably have a better balanced diet than most humans,” says Sherry Sanderson, DVM, PhD, of the University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine.

Supplements are meant to correct deficiencies.

For example, your cat may need a supplement if she has a medical condition that makes her unable to absorb a particular nutrient. Small intestinal disease can cause an inability to absorb the B vitamins folate and cobalamine. In this case, the cat would require injections of those two supplements, as oral supplements won’t be absorbed either.

Cats that are pregnant and nursing may develop nutritional deficiencies that require supplementation, particularly if the cat becomes pregnant before age 10-12 months, Cruz says. Your vet can direct you to the appropriate product.

Types of Cat Supplements

• General vitamins and minerals: A variety of single or multivitamin products are available for cats. Most cat foods contain all the necessary vitamins and minerals that a cat needs.
• Essential fatty acids: Omega-3 fatty acids and omega-6 fatty acids are touted for their ability to keep a cat’s coat shiny and to prevent shedding. They also protect a cat’s immune system, liver, eyes, brain, and joints. And, just like in humans, omega-3 fatty acids boost heart health and fight high cholesterol. Cat foods contain a lot more omega6 fatty acids than omega-3 fatty acids, so some think supplementation is needed. But not everyone is sold on the idea.
• Probiotics: Probiotics are healthy, “good” bacteria that help improve digestive health. They contain microorganisms such as Lactobacillus acidophilus or Lactobacillus casei (also found in some yogurts), which control the overgrowth of "bad" bacteria in the large intestine.
• 
  Nutraceuticals are herbal or natural remedies that fall in a bit of a gray area where supplements are concerned. Advocates for pet nutraceuticals say such products simply supplement the cat’s natural diet. They’ve referred to them as“more than feed additives but less than pharmaceuticals."
  
  But the Pet Food Institute’s Nancy Cook says “nutraceuticals are intended to treat or prevent a disease and are therefore a drug, not a supplement.” The AVMA defines nutraceutical medicine as “the use of micronutrients, macronutrients, and other nutritional supplements as therapeutic agents.”
  
  “It is necessary for the consumer to be aware that natural does not always mean safe or effective,” Cruz says.
  

  Types of Nutraceuticals

  
  Nutraceutical products are found in the supplement section in pet stores and online. Some of the top sellers for cats are:
  • Glucosamine helps increase joint mobility and is often touted as a treatment for arthritis, although Cruz says it doesn't relieve its pain.
  • Chondroitin is also for healthy bone and joints. It is often found with glucosamine.
  • Milk thistle extract helps remove toxins from the cat’s liver. It may be used for cats with liver disease.

  Cat Supplements to Avoid

  
  Experts say there are a lot of unsafe supplements, but the biggest ones to avoid include:
  • Garlic: destroys red blood cells, leading to anemia
  • Onion: destroys red blood cells, leading to anemia
  • Calcium: too much can be toxic
  • Vitamin D: too much can be toxic
  • Vitamin C: too much can cause overly acidic urine, which can lead to crystal formation and a lifethreatening blockage

Furthermore, they are just recommended by my vet not prescribed.  My cats do not have any underlying illnesses to address.   

 

[whollycat]

I understand that.  I do.  But people need to stay on topic. 

Um...you did post in the Raw Feeding forum, so I'd say we are on topic.

Originally Posted by P3 and The King

Besides that, not all information is good and accurate information. (I am not pointing any fingers.) I would recommend speaking with a professional on this topic and not just taking information on a forum before doing anything on diet or health.  That is a huge problem that a lot have with raw feeding is that so much extra that is not needed is put into it, thinking that they need it and it balances it out.  Most cases, it might be true.  But diet by diet is different.  Plus, there is the factor of too many supplements and vitamins and such.  Most don't realize they're doing too much.  And unless the advice is asked for, I would recommend on subjects like this to keep opinions to yourself.  I do appereciate it.  Not just my vets, but also my professors agree with my choices and it is indeed balanced.  They are professionals.  They know more about my cats than anyone on the forum besides myself.  So I will take their word over that.

I'm sorry, but I've been studying feline physiology, behavior, etc. for almost a decade, and I'm a new member here. IMHO, a degree does not give one a more superior stance on the topic. If it was up to my vet, my Maine Coon, Maxie, would have been on steroids for the rest of his life to control his EGC when he was only a year old. I did my research because long-term steroid use and the side-effects was out of the question--I wanted to get to the root of the problem, not cover it up with a drug. We switched to a raw diet, and still six years later you would never know he has it.

We point things out to help, not to be condemning or condescending. You did post in the raw forum, so this is why it was imperative that we speak out.

Originally Posted by P3 and The King
 

I am not saying anyone is wrong but telling me I need to do my research makes me laugh because clearly it is not I who needs to research on over supplementing and balancing!  That is my opinion.

I do appereciate your input and I do not wish to offend anyone.  Lets just agree to disagree. This topic is closed.  Thank you.

Oh boy. I'm not saying another word because clearly you are NOT understanding the facts of feline nutritional requirements and how their bodies use nutrients in their complicated physiological and biological processes. They aren't dogs. They aren't humans. They are obligate carnivores and unique.

 

[whollycat]

• Cat Supplements to Avoid

  
  Experts say there are a lot of unsafe supplements, but the biggest ones to avoid include:
  • Garlic: destroys red blood cells, leading to anemia
  • Onion: destroys red blood cells, leading to anemia
  • Calcium: too much can be toxic
  • Vitamin D: too much can be toxic
  • Vitamin C: too much can cause overly acidic urine, which can lead to crystal formation and a lifethreatening blockage

Furthermore, they are just recommended by my vet not prescribed.  My cats do not have any underlying illnesses to address.   

Agree on all but this when it comes to a raw or cooked homemade diet: calcium from bones or supplement must be included in the correct cahos ratio to balance a homemade diet, raw or cooked, because meat contains more phosphorus than calcium.

 

[p3 and the king]

WhollyCat, I wasn't condeming anyone (I can't spell tonight... Too much finals junk gumming up the works!) for feeding raw.  I admire them... If they do it correctly.  But I do know and feel a lot of them put too many or too much "extra" in their receipes that are not neccessary. And the article I posted was saying that giving TOO MUCH calcium is toxic.  There is no good from the theory that more is better when it comes to supplements with humans and with cats.

I will bring it up in Nutrition III class next semester.  I think this would be an interesting topic for debate... The supplements not raw feeding.

  But, I found more than enough articles to back up my claims too I am not saying anyone is wrong, either.  Please do not misunderstand!

 

[Willowy]

The article there wasn't talking about supplementing a homemade diet. They specifically say not to add supplements to a diet of CAT FOOD. Which is totally correct--cat foods are already supplemented with the correct balances and adding anything can be harmful. But when you're feeding fresh meat you either need to provide the correct bone/organ ratios, or supplement to provide those nutrients. Otherwise the ratios are all wonky.

 

[p3 and the king]

The article there wasn't talking about supplementing a homemade diet. They specifically say not to add supplements to a diet of CAT FOOD. Which is totally correct--cat foods are already supplemented with the correct balances and adding anything can be harmful. But when you're feeding fresh meat you either need to provide the correct bone/organ ratios, or supplement to provide those nutrients. Otherwise the ratios are all wonky.

My point was that over supplementing is not good for them... Whether you feed raw, cooked or cat food.  This is a common mistake made by many who feed raw or cooked.  They add things in and too much of it over time can be toxic and have ill affects.  And if you feed cat food, high grade, you really don't need them at all unless prescribed for some illness or reason.  They are not proven, it is just speculated thus far.  No one knows for sure if it really does any good even in raw or cooked foods.  But what we do know is that the more being better is not so.  So, to anyone reading this and trying to decide how much or whether or not... Please take medical advice from a professional first.   

 

[Willowy]

Cats need certain nutrients. If the diet you're feeding does not contain those nutrients, or not enough or too much or not in the proper ratios, I can't see that as being good :dk:.