Backyard Breeders

[ameezers]

I was going to try to post this in the IMO spot but I haven't been on the site long enough to do that.

So here goes; what do you consider a backyard breeder?

Is it someone selling unregistered kittens? Or those that breed cats with no contracts, health guarantee or genetic testing? Or people that have no knowledge of the breed, and are using breeding as a way to make money?

Most of what I have seen, if you are breeding unregistered kittens, then you are a considered BYB (which means that you are not to be trusted). But really all that being "registered" means is that you can trace your cats pedegree by atleast 3 generations.

Not all registered breeders are ethical and produce/ sell healthy, well socialized cats. Some are in it for the money, don't keep up with vaccinations and the health of the cats (because vet bills cut into profit), or don't provide suitable living arrangements that are optimal for healthy animals.

Now what about people that have unregistered cats, that are true to the breed (in genetics and in temperament), that have been tested for FIV, FeLV, parasites ect and any other gentic abnormalities or diseases that are breed specific? They have a cattery that is inspected, and all cats are up to date on vaccinations and are regularly seen by vet to ensure optimal health? That have a health guarantee, a contract that states kitten must be spayed/neutered and is never to be re-homed or given to animal shelter ect.

Do you consider these people to be Backyard breeders?

Would you be more willing to purchase a registered cat from a breeder without a health guarantee or contract, or purchase an unregistered cat that is has been vet checked, vaccinated and comes with health guarantee and contract?

Thanks for your time!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

First off, welcome to TCS.

The enormity of the question really doesn't admit to an answer which touches on the, "why," in each proposal, so this will be a brief and strictly personal opinion.

When I meet a new breeder at a show, the first question I ask - and the first question that's on the mind of any sophisticated buyer - is, "what trait or traits are you trying to enhance, and which are you trying to suppress?" A breeder who didn't have a solid, well-thought-out reply, at least touching on the specific genetics which she or he is hoping to develop, would be a back yard breeder right off the bat, since there are millions of worthy cats in shelters around the world who'd provide the same companionship and Love as a purebred kitten who was bred by someone who wasn't absolutely focused on some aspect which would improve the breed.

As to the statement, "But really all that being "registered" means is that you can trace your cats pedegree by at least 3 generations..." it's a good deal more than that. Having the ability to examine the genetic diversity of a kitten's generational parentage will offer a glimpse into the possibility of future health concerns, and a good deal more about possible temperament. Here again, a breeder who's unfamiliar with lineage, and who cannot answer questions about the traits and medical history of a kitten's progenitors, fails the test.

A Maine Coon breeder who answered, "I've made an extensive study of the correlation noted by U.C. Davis in the genetic markers between British Shorthairs and Maine Coons, and have developed a three-line program which incorporates F, F¹ and F² progenitors who will enhance Lynx Tips in my kittens while at the same time I've specifically chosen cats from at least four generations whose markers exclude the presence of the A31P and A74T polymorphisms in the myosin binding protein C3 causing the mutation for inherited hypertrophic cardiomyopathy," would have my attention. A Siamese breeder who replied, "I want pretty cats with nice personalities," would get shuffled right to the bottom of the BYB deck.

How important is genetic testing? Today - with so many "catteries" having inbred so many traits - it's more important than ever. A good breeder has already examined the markers of the cats she or he is considering incorporating into a breeding program, and can relay that information - and the reasons these cats were specifically chosen - to a prospective buyer. No DNA marker comparison back (at least) three generations is, today, the equivalent of a BYB, and as genetic testing continues to improve, presenting specific patented tests for abnormalities in purebred cats, it will become increasingly important - and will doubtless increase the price of kittens whose health can be warranted back through the lineage to parentage which has specifically excluded such traits. It will be - I expect - enormously important in certain breeds known for specific health concerns: the Maine Coon, the Norwegian Forest, the Ragdoll, and colourpoints of every sort chief among them.

"Breeding," with unregistered cats - unless they've been DNA tested and their kittens given later registration approval for breed specificity - isn't breeding at all - it's simply making kittens. All the above is the reason that serious, scientific breeders must start their prices for kittens in four figures. Testing costs money; keeping kittens well-nourished for 14 to 16 weeks (and seeing to their proper socialisation) costs money; holding several lines at once, and taking the time to research their genetics, and integrating them into a focused breeding program costs money; having a suitable cattery, with sufficient space, and allowing the cats full time interaction with their Human companions costs (a great deal of) money.

Is the return, in terms of the personal satisfaction worth the enormous investment and the expenditure of time in creating a serious program which yields results? Certainly - but breeding will never be a money-making endeavour for any but a few extremely select and incredibly knowledgeable people who are absolutely dedicated to their profession. Thankfully, these people are easy to recognise - they guarantee everything about their kittens, and they're usually buried under a pile of Best In Show ribbons.

.

 

[ameezers]

Wow what a great answer! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply

 

[LotsOfFur]

Agree! One of the best explanations I've heard!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Wow what a great answer! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply

You're certainly welcome, though the reply is really pretty sketchy. Hopefully abyeb , StefanZ or posiepurrs will chime in with their thoughts.

.

 

[StefanZ]

Talking about BYB breeders, we must remeber there are grades among them too. From the most horrendous types, up to quite decent people, loving their cats giving their breeding stock and companion cats a good life, making sure the kittens are healthy and comes to good homes. Not telling lies about them being purebreds if they arent - and reducing prices accordingly.

So for example, I have heard a big part of the Swedish Russian Blue breeders during a long period were ladies having it as a hobby. Technically they were probably BYB´s. No pains to make do high standard breeding, using various studs even from long across the country, nor participating in shows, etc. But they did what must be done: the cats were OK, kittens were OK, sold to responsible now owners. They registered cats and kittens in the proper association, etc... No great ambitions breedingwise, but still honorable to their cats and customers.

Another example. An amateur breeder whom come to conviction it was very difficult to breed forward healthy purebred. So she admitted the defeat and took consequences from it: she crossed Maine Coon with persians, I think it was. As she observed the second generation of outcrossed were usually healthy. So the produced healthy and sound pet companion cats, it was what she de facto did.

And sold them as pet quality mixes, where the buyer promised he would spay and neuter when they time come (we dont do kitten spaying in Sweden). She made sure the cats got appropriate vet care, got insurance, food, kittens sold at the recommended age of 12 weeks. The price was much higher than for a common moggie, but lower than from a full purebred (about half of the price of a decent, but pet quality purebred).
So she was per definition a BYB breeder, but honest and fully honorable...

The sorrowfull fact is most BYBs are worse than my two examples, some much worse.
And also some of the serious breeders arent very good to the cats, having them in cages without proper socialization (it IS possible to have them in cages and socialize and be OK, but it demands some extra planning and work - I saw Posiepurrs mentioned this).

 

[Kieka]

There is no living up to the response from 1CatOverTheLine but I would agree that there are degrees of BYB like StefanZ pointed out.

In my view point it is more of a four tier breakdown.

Professional (and beginning professional) breeders - Those who follow rigorous breeding standards. Breed for a specific traits and are extremely careful in selection for those traits. Who does all the genetic testing, socialization, showing, and quality that one could desire. Fully registered and has all the heritage documentation and paperwork for their cats. Usually has won several shows or kitten from their lines have become show winners.

Hobby breeders - Still within the professional shows but not as careful about the lines. Good for getting a pet quality cat but may be iffy on genetic testing or the more technical aspects. Hasn't won many (if any shows) if they even participate. I would put the BYB that truly do care about their cats but don't have the knowledge about breeding tentatively in this category assuming they attempt to do better when they learn more specifics.

Oops/Nature Happens People - People who didn't get their cat spayed/neutered and ended up with kittens.... Or they just don't know better but are known in their community for always having a kitten available. A lot of these would probably be the local barn cats or that friend of a friend you all know with a kitten that needs a home. They will typically care for the kittens and find homes for them when it is time but they aren't asking for money (or are just to weed out people who want kittens for bait or snake food).

Backyard Breeders - A person or group of people who breed kittens simply for profit. The Hobby Breeders above are usually still registering and usually care about breaking even on the costs of breeding but BYB aren't registered and will cut corners for profit. Either they will buy an unaltered cat from a hobby breeder or find a cat that looks close enough to a specific breed to pass and start breeding. Sometimes they get one purebred and start mixing it with anything similar to produce kittens that look close enough to pass. We just recently had someone asking about mixed breeding Does A Ragdoll And Ragamuffin Result In Ragdoll? and it turns out after further research that the place they were looking was likely a kitten mill. The absolute worse of the BYB (in my opinion) where someone claims to be selling high quality purebreds but their studs and queens look like poorly cared for moggy look alikes. I think BYB is a dirty word in the pet world because of the implications that they care more about money then the animals in their care. Puppy/kitten mills though are probably the worst of the BYB because they pass themselves off as legitimate and sell animals that are usually sick/dying for a premium.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

.
Now you have two far more thoughtful and insightful replies, thanks to Kieka (who I stupidly failed to "@" here) and Stefan - both of whom expanded beyond the basic questions to render much better definitions.

.

 

[kittens mom]

First off, welcome to TCS.

The enormity of the question really doesn't admit to an answer which touches on the, "why," in each proposal, so this will be a brief and strictly personal opinion.

When I meet a new breeder at a show, the first question I ask - and the first question that's on the mind of any sophisticated buyer - is, "what trait or traits are you trying to enhance, and which are you trying to suppress?" A breeder who didn't have a solid, well-thought-out reply, at least touching on the specific genetics which she or he is hoping to develop, would be a back yard breeder right off the bat, since there are millions of worthy cats in shelters around the world who'd provide the same companionship and Love as a purebred kitten who was bred by someone who wasn't absolutely focused on some aspect which would improve the breed.

As to the statement, "But really all that being "registered" means is that you can trace your cats pedegree by at least 3 generations..." it's a good deal more than that. Having the ability to examine the genetic diversity of a kitten's generational parentage will offer a glimpse into the possibility of future health concerns, and a good deal more about possible temperament. Here again, a breeder who's unfamiliar with lineage, and who cannot answer questions about the traits and medical history of a kitten's progenitors, fails the test.

A Maine Coon breeder who answered, "I've made an extensive study of the correlation noted by U.C. Davis in the genetic markers between British Shorthairs and Maine Coons, and have developed a three-line program which incorporates F, F¹ and F² progenitors who will enhance Lynx Tips in my kittens while at the same time I've specifically chosen cats from at least four generations whose markers exclude the presence of the A31P and A74T polymorphisms in the myosin binding protein C3 causing the mutation for inherited hypertrophic cardiomyopathy," would have my attention. A Siamese breeder who replied, "I want pretty cats with nice personalities," would get shuffled right to the bottom of the BYB deck.

How important is genetic testing? Today - with so many "catteries" having inbred so many traits - it's more important than ever. A good breeder has already examined the markers of the cats she or he is considering incorporating into a breeding program, and can relay that information - and the reasons these cats were specifically chosen - to a prospective buyer. No DNA marker comparison back (at least) three generations is, today, the equivalent of a BYB, and as genetic testing continues to improve, presenting specific patented tests for abnormalities in purebred cats, it will become increasingly important - and will doubtless increase the price of kittens whose health can be warranted back through the lineage to parentage which has specifically excluded such traits. It will be - I expect - enormously important in certain breeds known for specific health concerns: the Maine Coon, the Norwegian Forest, the Ragdoll, and colourpoints of every sort chief among them.

"Breeding," with unregistered cats - unless they've been DNA tested and their kittens given later registration approval for breed specificity - isn't breeding at all - it's simply making kittens. All the above is the reason that serious, scientific breeders must start their prices for kittens in four figures. Testing costs money; keeping kittens well-nourished for 14 to 16 weeks (and seeing to their proper socialisation) costs money; holding several lines at once, and taking the time to research their genetics, and integrating them into a focused breeding program costs money; having a suitable cattery, with sufficient space, and allowing the cats full time interaction with their Human companions costs (a great deal of) money.

Is the return, in terms of the personal satisfaction worth the enormous investment and the expenditure of time in creating a serious program which yields results? Certainly - but breeding will never be a money-making endeavour for any but a few extremely select and incredibly knowledgeable people who are absolutely dedicated to their profession. Thankfully, these people are easy to recognise - they guarantee everything about their kittens, and they're usually buried under a pile of Best In Show ribbons.

.

Thank you. I walked away from any stallion when the owner didn't ask to evaluate my mares and I made several people really angry for refusing to stand my stallion to their mares. The progeny must always be equal to or superior to the dam and sire. I think that holds true no matter what animal you're breeding.

 

[abyeb]

I just saw this post now, and everyone already has posted very thorough responses.

I would say that I would classify BYBs as anyone who does one or more of the following:
- sells unregistered kittens
- doesn't run all genetic tests appropriate for their breed
- doesn't breed to standard
- is trying to make a profit
- sells sick kittens
- impregnates females who are too old to have a healthy pregnancy
- doesn't plan every breeding (i.e., lets whole females and studs run around together to see what random litters will happen)
- inbreeds
- has a dirty cattery
- sells pet quality kittens with breeding rights
- sells any kitten with breeding rights to someone who is not an experienced breeder OR selling a kitten with breeding rights to a new member of the cat fancy WITHOUT mentoring them
- doesn't have separate stud quarters (either in a room, or a mini detached house)
- isn't an active participant in cat shows
- breeds off-standard outcrosses (e.g., breeding Siamese x Manx because, why not? Some outcrosses are allowed per CFA rules, for example, Scottish Folds may be outcrossed with British or American Shorthair)
- breeds without regard for a kitten's health (i.e., breeding folded ear to folded ear for Scottish Fold, breeding short legged to short legged for Munchkin...)
- doesn't carefully screen all pet buyers

 

[posiepurrs]

A BYB (in my humble opinion) is someone who just throws 2 cats together to get kittens. They do not do the genetic testing, sell kittens before they are ready, usually 8 weeks or so to keep overhead down. A truly professional breeder ( or serious hobby breeder) will know pedigrees, breed to improve the breed, do all the genetic testing needed, offer guarantees, and will take a kitten back if something comes up. They will show to evaluate how successful their program is and rarely makes a profit. In the 10 years i was breeding I never made a profit! They do it for the love and the betterment of the breed.

 

[LotsOfFur]

This is a great thread! Very informative and an excellent resource! Thank you to all that responded and to the OP for a great question!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

A BYB (in my humble opinion) is someone who just throws 2 cats together to get kittens. They do not do the genetic testing, sell kittens before they are ready, usually 8 weeks or so to keep overhead down. A truly professional breeder ( or serious hobby breeder) will know pedigrees, breed to improve the breed, do all the genetic testing needed, offer guarantees, and will take a kitten back if something comes up. They will show to evaluate how successful their program is and rarely makes a profit. In the 10 years i was breeding I never made a profit! They do it for the love and the betterment of the breed.

Lynda's just touched on a very important point with the phrase, "...a truly professional breeder ( or serious hobby breeder)..." [given that she's a GC and International GC Persian breeder, this was offered first-hand]: sometimes the serious hobby breeder - when their focus is well-devised and well-executed - leads the way.

This isn't a "plug" for Pauline and Bill (Sa-Shai Siamese Cattery), but if I were seeking a fabulous Siamese from a rock-solid breeder (Pauline describes herself and her Husband, Bill as, "hobby breeders"), their website is precisely what I'd want to see:

Welcome to SA-SHAI CATTERY Siamese ..... exclusively ! Over 45 years producing show quality cats

Anyone who's considering breeding for sale or show should take the time to look through their entire site to see, "how it should be done" - not just for the layout of their vast home-cum-cattery, but because these, "hobbyists,' are among the people alluded to in my initial reply, "buried under a pile of Best In Show ribbons." "Professional breeders," would give their right arm to be in this picture:

CATTERY OF THE YEAR - 2010

.

 

[kittens mom]

I just saw this post now, and everyone already has posted very thorough responses.

I would say that I would classify BYBs as anyone who does one or more of the following:
- sells unregistered kittens
- doesn't run all genetic tests appropriate for their breed
- doesn't breed to standard
- is trying to make a profit
- sells sick kittens
- impregnates females who are too old to have a healthy pregnancy
- doesn't plan every breeding (i.e., lets whole females and studs run around together to see what random litters will happen)
- inbreeds
- has a dirty cattery
- sells pet quality kittens with breeding rights
- sells any kitten with breeding rights to someone who is not an experienced breeder OR selling a kitten with breeding rights to a new member of the cat fancy WITHOUT mentoring them
- doesn't have separate stud quarters (either in a room, or a mini detached house)
- isn't an active participant in cat shows
- breeds off-standard outcrosses (e.g., breeding Siamese x Manx because, why not? Some outcrosses are allowed per CFA rules, for example, Scottish Folds may be outcrossed with British or American Shorthair)
- breeds without regard for a kitten's health (i.e., breeding folded ear to folded ear for Scottish Fold, breeding short legged to short legged for Munchkin...)
- doesn't carefully screen all pet buyers

I really have no issue with someone breeding unregistered animals or making a profit. There should be a purpose behind the breeding though. There are some cats that are outstanding individuals for reasons other than pedigree in fact I would favor that over some of the pedigreed cats I've seen. But there has to be a ready market kittens for most catteries are sold via a waiting list. BYB and puppy mills/kitten factories and some horse breeders all fall in the deplorable category when they breed inventory that is not spoken for.

 

[kittens mom]

A BYB (in my humble opinion) is someone who just throws 2 cats together to get kittens. They do not do the genetic testing, sell kittens before they are ready, usually 8 weeks or so to keep overhead down. A truly professional breeder ( or serious hobby breeder) will know pedigrees, breed to improve the breed, do all the genetic testing needed, offer guarantees, and will take a kitten back if something comes up. They will show to evaluate how successful their program is and rarely makes a profit. In the 10 years i was breeding I never made a profit! They do it for the love and the betterment of the breed.

I never made a real profit off my sport horses but I sure aimed for it a few times. It takes a deep knowledge for pedigree and genetics to produce any animal for sale. I also consider fad breeding like crosses or worse breeding mutations to produce a pseudo breed outrageous. We had a dwarf calico born here that people actually wanted to buy and breed. I had her fixed.

 

[ameezers]

Thank you so much for your responses everyone! I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to my questions

 

[abyeb]

I never made a real profit off my sport horses but I sure aimed for it a few times. It takes a deep knowledge for pedigree and genetics to produce any animal for sale. I also consider fad breeding like crosses or worse breeding mutations to produce a pseudo breed outrageous. We had a dwarf calico born here that people actually wanted to buy and breed. I had her fixed.

I suppose that there is no issue with trying to make some profit, however, the problem arises when an individual is breeding only for profit, and in the process, sacrifices cats' health and wellbeing for the purpose of minimizing costs.

 

[kittens mom]

I suppose that there is no issue with trying to make some profit, however, the problem arises when an individual is breeding only for profit, and in the process, sacrifices cats' health and wellbeing for the purpose of minimizing costs.

Most real breeders understand that any actual monetary profit is realized by their donated labor. I would have laughed at someone a few years ago that said cats were labor intensive just as pets. It takes a long to take care of their needs at bedtime as it did to do a quick muck and feed at midnight for 6 horses.

 

[posiepurrs]

I do have to amend my statement somewhat. Truthfully by what I said, I started out as a BYB. I had colorpoint Persians and wanted to breed and show. However this was before the internet and could NOT find a mentor to help. I made sure everyone was extremely healthy, the cats were registered with CFA, and practically interrogated any prospective buyers. What changed is when I attended a cat show locally and realized my cats were not show quality. I spayed and neutered everyone and started searching for Breeder/show quality silver and goldens. Personally, I believe the only reason to breed should be to improve the breed and to have a cat to show. I could never again just breed a litter just to have kittens ( even as much as I LOVE having kittens around) without having an end purpose. I also truly feel that if a breeder is doing it right vet bills, genetic testing, food, etc) they probably won't make a profit.

Also to reply to 1catoverthelines quote here:[given that she's a GC and International GC Persian breeder, this was offered first-hand] You flatter me. My boy, Jack is a grand premier (neutered), 2 time regional winner and was the highest scoring silver and golden Persian GP in the world for CFA 2 years running but that is not an official title though. I am a very small fish in a very large pond with many surpassing us in titles.

 

[ameezers]

Lynda's just touched on a very important point with the phrase, "...a truly professional breeder ( or serious hobby breeder)..." [given that she's a GC and International GC Persian breeder, this was offered first-hand]: sometimes the serious hobby breeder - when their focus is well-devised and well-executed - leads the way.

This isn't a "plug" for Pauline and Bill (Sa-Shai Siamese Cattery), but if I were seeking a fabulous Siamese from a rock-solid breeder (Pauline describes herself and her Husband, Bill as, "hobby breeders"), their website is precisely what I'd want to see:

Welcome to SA-SHAI CATTERY Siamese ..... exclusively ! Over 45 years producing show quality cats

Anyone who's considering breeding for sale or show should take the time to look through their entire site to see, "how it should be done" - not just for the layout of their vast home-cum-cattery, but because these, "hobbyists,' are among the people alluded to in my initial reply, "buried under a pile of Best In Show ribbons." "Professional breeders," would give their right arm to be in this picture:

CATTERY OF THE YEAR - 2010

.

Their website is amazing, thanks for posting this!