Does A Ragdoll And Ragamuffin Result In Ragdoll?

MsKatieB

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We are hoping to adopt a Ragdoll kitten, but we want to make sure we are indeed adopting a Ragdoll, not a Ragamuffin. I don't know how to tell the difference. SO if the mother is a Ragdoll and the Father is a Ragamuffin, is it possible to get a Ragdoll kitten?
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Kieka

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Ragdoll is pointed. Ragamuffin are not. They both started out as the same breed but there was a fundamental difference in colors that lead to the separation. Pointed cats have the "Siamese" patterning of blue eyes with their points being darker. It is an albinism recessive trait.

Unless the father carriers a recessive pointed gene he will not produce pointed kittens. Even if he does it is only a 50-50 chance that any individual kitten would be pointed. I am curious who would be purposefully breeding a ragamuffin and Ragdoll as those are very specific breeds. Mixing would screw up the genetics and become unpredictable in a breeding program.
 
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MsKatieB

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Thank you, so it's not possible to result in a Ragdoll kitten from that combination? Here is a link to the example with the attached pedigrees. Please feel free to comment, as I want to understand as much as possible about this. Thanks!

Kittens For Sale
 

abyeb

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Ragdoll x RagaMuffin= Domestic Longhair.

Ragdoll has no allowable outcrosses, whereas RagaMuffin can be outcrossed with a straight-haired Selkirk Rex longhair (until 2030, that is). A serious breeder wouldn't breed an outcross that is not to standard, so if this breeder is trying to give you a Ragdoll x RagaMuffin, I would walk away.

To tell the difference, Ragdolls are pointed, whereas RagaMuffins come in a wide array of colors and patterns. I'll attach links: Breed Profile: The RagaMuffin Breed Profile: The Ragdoll
 

Kieka

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Stay far away from that breeder. Far far far away. That they are listing this male as a "Blue and White Mitted Solid Ragdoll" alone is a HUGE blazing warning sign. :angryfire:



Ragdolls are ONLY pointed. There is absolutely no such thing as a purebred Ragdoll that is "Solid". That aside he is not even solid colored with mitts. I'd put my money on that white going all the way down his belly which makes him a bicolor.

This mother is no a blue point ragamuffin. Ragamuffins are not pointed it is a very clear and unshakable rule of ragamuffins. She has very distinct cross eye going on which most pointed breeders try to avoid in breeding programs. That aside she is not fluffy enough or big enough (at least doesn't seem to be) to be a ragdoll. Honestly she seems like a small medium hair pointed cat. They probably labeled her as a ragamuffin because her coat is shorter than expected for ragdoll.



I also have HUGE concerns with the breeder listing a "Munchkin" area and having this little guy in that category and giving him the label of "Red bicolor solid male teacup ragamuffin kitten"


Ummmm.......... so many things wrong there.

1) Munchkin is a breed. A specific breed of short legged cats not just small cats. His legs look pretty much average for his size.
2) I have never heard of a recognized "teacup Ragamuffin". Breed standard is for a Ragamuffin to be medium to large size.
3) Cats are not dogs. You can't randomly mix two breeds to create your own and then charge top dollar for them.
4) Look at the pedigree. Notice how the "munchkin" mother has her photo cropped so you can't see her legs. Odd you say? I say so too.

And that lead me to look at their "pedigree" and I absolutely am done. Run far far far to the other side of the universe from this "breeder". Can I also just say that the photos of there cats are just horrible? Withdrawn scared cats. Too young to be breeding in their photos. Some look dirty and unhealthy. I just can't even consider it. And someone please explain what USDA has to do with quality purebred cats and cat breeding?

Please look up a reputable TICA Ragdoll breeder: Ragdoll Breeders

I should note that I usually try to stay away from bashing breeders. But this person is just upsetting in the sheer level of deceit that they are doing to people. And to charge that much for a cat that isn't what they are advertising? Just extremely upsetting. I am sure if you asked for papers they would provide fake papers or fail to follow through. Something made you double check with this site and that was a good call on you part.
 
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Willowy

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Yes, that is a terrible terrible breeder. First of all, the only breeders that need to be USDA licensed are puppy/kitten mills. So that's the first red flag. I suppose it's possible that there's a high-volume breeder somewhere who really cares about their cats, but not usually.

Another red flag is selling breeding rights on all cats. Only breeding quality cats should be sold with breeding rights, and generally every effort is made to get them placed with another breeder who has a good match for them in their breeding program.

Basically, they're mass producers and are only in it for the money. They're not selling high-quality purebreds. Find a good small-scale breeder who actually cares about their cats.

I kinda feel like someone should contact TICA to report these people :/. Although they don't say the kittens are registered, just that they are a TICA Outstanding Cattery. Maybe thye got that award many years ago, but now they're a kitten mill.
 

Kieka

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I just used their live chat and they claim TICA. o_O W Willowy

Kitten mill. Notice how they shut me down and cut contact when I tried to ask about how they can mix breeds?

Also from TICA, "All pointed Ragdolls have beautiful blue eyes and come in 3 patterns: colorpoint, bicolor, mitted. The Ragdoll color pallet consists of seal, blue, chocolate, lilac, cinnamon, fawn, red and cream along with the tortoiseshell and lynx (or tabby) variations. Colorpoint Ragdolls have classic markings like the Siamese with no white anywhere on the body; mitted Ragdolls have white feet in the front looking like mittens and white to the hock on the backlegs looking like boots along with a possible white blaze on the face; bi-color Ragdolls have more white extending higher up the legs than on the mitteds, splashes of white on the back, a white underside and an inverted white V on the face."

They are twisting things. Stay away.
 
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Willowy

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I googled "can ragdoll cats be solid colored" and some breeders say yes. But even allowing for that, a mix would not be registerable, and decent breeders wouldn't be mixing like that.
 

Kieka

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abyeb abyeb Can you take a look and chime in? Can a TICA register Ragdoll be solid nonpointed? Can a TICA registered ragamuffin be pointed?
 
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MsKatieB

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Thank you for providing such informative responses. Here is the one we were considering from the same site, her name is Paula (Ragdoll) and her Mother is Lilyann (Ragamuffin) and Father Prince Eric (Ragdoll). How much of this is true? Are any of these actually Ragdolls?

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abyeb

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Kieka

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Thank you for providing such informative responses. Here is the one we were considering from the same site, her name is Paula (Ragdoll) and her Mother is Lilyann (Ragamuffin) and Father Prince Eric (Ragdoll). How much of this is true? Are any of these actually Ragdolls?

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In my opinion, They are not actual Ragdolls. Longhair pointed cats. This person is talking a pretty game to charge a lot for their kittens. They are trying to scam you. Don't buy any of their kittens and find a reputable breeder.
 
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Willowy

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Ragamuffins are CFA recognized, this says they can come in pointed and be registered, but not shown: Breed Profile: The RagaMuffin

But that's kind of beside the point. That's a very bad breeder; definitely a kitten mill, they're doing some sketchy stuff and you may end up with a sick kitten. For the prices they're asking you could get a nice home-raised kitten from a responsible breeder.
 

abyeb

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Ragamuffins are CFA recognized, this says they can come in pointed and be registered, but not shown: Breed Profile: The RagaMuffin

But that's kind of beside the point. That's a very bad breeder; definitely a kitten mill, they're doing some sketchy stuff and you may end up with a sick kitten. For the prices they're asking you could get a nice home-raised kitten from a responsible breeder.
Yes, RagaMuffins are CFA, ACFA, GCCF, and WCF recognized, but not in TICA for some reason, which this breeder is claiming to be a part of.
 

Willowy

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OK, one thing I was able to find is that this breeder has gone by ElegantRags, Love Ragdolls, and Lovely Ragdolls. If you google those names you'll find a lot of complaints (especially ElegantRags because the other 2 names get kind of lost in all the "we love Ragdolls!" sites). They're definitely to be avoided.
 

abyeb

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MsKatieB MsKatieB , I'd advise you to go to a cat show to take a look at these breeds and to meet with and talk to breeders. Breeders who go to shows are breeding to standard, have well-socialized cats (as an unfriendly cat would be a disaster in the show hall), and you can tell that they're committed to their breeding program just by the fact that they traveled there and paid the quite substantial entry fee. You can also tell if the cats are healthy. I'll attach links to show calendars:

Show Calendar

Show Schedule

TICA Show Calendar
 

NewYork1303

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Thank you for providing such informative responses. Here is the one we were considering from the same site, her name is Paula (Ragdoll) and her Mother is Lilyann (Ragamuffin) and Father Prince Eric (Ragdoll). How much of this is true? Are any of these actually Ragdolls?

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To me these all look like domestic cats, not purebred cats at all. These guys are complete scam artists. Look elsewhere.
 
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MsKatieB

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Yes, I see complaints on this company. And they basically told me the same thing. So it sounds like they are manipulating the guidelines to register the kittens?
 

talkingpeanut

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Yes, I see complaints on this company. And they basically told me the same thing. So it sounds like they are manipulating the guidelines to register the kittens?
They could also be forging papers. You want to support a reputable breeder so you are sure you are getting support and the healthiest baby possible. I would run from this.
 
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MsKatieB

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Thank you so much for all of your input. We found our dream Ragdoll baby at a reputable breeder in South Carolina, Riterags Ragdolls. This little guy is 100% Ragdoll from a champion bloodline. So cute! We are in love!
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