Why would keeping a Queen cat as pregnant as much as possible be a bad thing to do?

Status
Not open for further replies.

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
Why would keeping a Queen cat as pregnant as much as possible be a bad thing to do?

I tried some google searches on this and really couldn't find any concrete answers.

I've read where many people agree that a cat should not have more than 2 litters per year and a few people said 3 is ok, but most said no more than 2.

So I am trying to understand if it's possible for a cat to have 4 or 5 litters per year, then what would make that a bad thing to do?

Are people saying litters should be limited to only 2 per year due to the overall population problem of cats?

Or are we talking about the quality of the Queens life? And in that case, if having 4 or 5 litters per year is some how bad for a cats quality of life , how so, in what ways? I mean in the wild left to their own devices wouldn't cats just breed as often as they possibly could anyways?

And lastly, if people think a cat that just spends the majority of it's life basically as a kitten factory born to just produce as many kittens as possible in it's life, (again, isn't this what it would do in the wild if there was no human intervention?) aren't we anthropomorphizing the cats with human feelings that cats in reality don't possess? Sure in our human world a human made to just stay pregnant and produce as many babies as possible, that would be a cruel horrible thing, because one, we were not designed to do that, and two which is more important, we are humans, not cats.

I really have no idea... which is why I am posting this. This is my main question, which led me to join the forum, but once this question is answered, I have dozens more questions as well about cats. Thanks for any information or thoughts on this subject.
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
Aside from over population, being pregnant is incredibly hard on a cats body. It depletes them in every way.
And each time they go into heat it raises the risk of mammary cancer and incredibly deadly uterine infections.
As each pregnancy arrives there is a bigger chance of kitten mortality as well as her own.

It's completely unethical to allow this when preventable.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
Aside from over population, being pregnant is incredibly hard on a cats body. It depletes them in every way.
And each time they go into heat it raises the risk of mammary cancer and incredibly deadly uterine infections.
As each pregnancy arrives there is a bigger chance of kitten mortality as well as her own.

It's completely unethical to allow this when preventable.
What happens in the wild without human intervention though?
What is the maximum litters per year that you would personally recommend that would insure the Queen and offsprings best health?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
Cats are not wild animals, they are domesticated.

Have you seen kitten factories or puppy mills? Thats what alowing them to to get pregnant over and over does. It ravvages their little bodies until they litteraly die from exhastion.
I've never seen a mill or factory, but there is a park I go to that has about a dozen or more feral cats that hang out there all the time, they look healthy and happy, they won't let humans get close to them, but I know several people drive by there each night that leave them food. But the cats appear to be happy and healthy over the last year I've been seeing them at this park. So I'm kinda basing it off that experience, I figure these ferla cats probably breed a lot, but they always look happy when I see them.
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
What happens in the wild without human intervention though?
What is the maximum litters per year that you would personally recommend that would insure the Queen and offsprings best health?
One. That's what good breeders do.
Maximum 2 but as spread out as possible i.e. not to give birth and be allowed to mate again right away. Should have a reprieve of several months for their body to rest.

In the wild? Domestic cats live amongst humans in one way or another. You can't compare a lion to a domestic cat.
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
I've never seen a mill or factory, but there is a park I go to that has about a dozen or more feral cats that hang out there all the time, they look healthy and happy, they won't let humans get close to them, but I know several people drive by there each night that leave them food. But the cats appear to be happy and healthy over the last year I've been seeing them at this park. So I'm kinda basing it off that experience, I figure these ferla cats probably breed a lot, but they always look happy when I see them.
Frequently feral cats have been neutered/spayed.
If someone wasn't feeding them they would most likely look a lot worse. When there's enough food there's no reason for them to have to fight over resources.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
One. That's what good breeders do.
Maximum 2 but as spread out as possible i.e. not to give birth and be allowed to mate again right away. Should have a reprieve of several months for their body to rest.

In the wild? Domestic cats live amongst humans in one way or another. You can't compare a lion to a domestic cat.
No, I wasn't comparing cats with Lions, but I have often wondered, if a housecat were the size of a Lion would they attack and eat us like a Lion would, haha

I mean feral cats, if that's the correct use of feral? Cats that say were housecats but then ran away or were discarded by their owners, that live in neighborhoods and have kittens etc. I seen a cat wandering around my house yesterday and I was thinking then, that cat looks healthy, he probably gets plenty of food from catching birds & mice. I hate birds because I hate hearing them. So one thought I had was really I wish there were more feral cats running wild here in my neighborhood to kill off as many of the birds as possible. It would not bother me if all birds here by my house became extinct. I guess I am also not 100% convinced that a cat that a owner discards leads a horrible life. When I was a kid I had a couple cats that were outdoor cats only, they came and went as they pleased, I fed them every day, and they spent a good amount of time with me, but they were not spayed or neutered and I let them be free to go anywhere in the neighborhood they wanted. Had those cats for several years until I moved and never saw any problems with it.

I also only buy cats from breeders these days, I personally would never adopt a cat from a rescue shelter, because I want to pick out my pets from the internet, so I have a worldwide selection to choose from and be able the get the prettiest looking ones. But, I told some people I bought my cats from breeders and 9 times out of 10 they try to demonize me or lay some sort of guilt trip on me telling me how wrong it is to buy from breeders. But that type of bullying has just made me more callous and even more headstrong to never get anything from a shelter and to never recommend shelter pets to anyone.

But I digress, as I got a bit off topic haha.
but I think I take better care of cats than most people do... anyone that feeds their cat dry food for example should be locked up for animal abuse in my opinion. I only feed wet food & raw meat.
 

IndyJones

Adopt don't shop.
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 13, 2017
Messages
4,062
Purraise
3,774
Location
Where do you think?
If you google Overbreeding that is what happens when cats dogs or any other animal is bred over and over without rest. Cats specificaly suffer from mastitis, and exhastion to the point where their milk drys up and their kittens either die or are very malnurished with poor immune systems.

To explain puppy and kitten mills, they breed litter after litter treating the animals as though they are basicaly machienes. I won't go any further into it because it gets pretty NSFW and dark. Google it if you want.
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
This seems rather pointless as I don't the the OP is really interested in the "whys". This is all really easy to find out about online with their own research.
 

GoldyCat

Moderator
Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
15,781
Purraise
4,695
Location
Arizona
Think about the timing. A cat's pregnancy is approximately 9 weeks. Then the queen will be nursing the kittens typically for somewhere between 7 and 9 weeks. She's already at 4 months at that point. 3 litters a year would mean breeding her as soon as the kittens are weaned, with no time to rest an recover. 4 litters a year would mean breeding her while she's still nursing the previous litter, thereby increasing the stress on her body exponentially.

That's just one of the reasons many ethical breeders limit a queen to no more than 2 litters a year, or even 3 litters over 2 years.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
This seems rather pointless as I don't the the OP is really interested in the "whys". This is all really easy to find out about online with their own research.
I disagree. I think this is helpful.

I've already looked online, and all I see online is that everyone bashes people that breed for profit.

I don't think information that comes from people that are against breeding for profit is useful because it is biased due to their obvious issues of treating animals as if animals are humans.

My ex girlfriend could not have kids and she had 3 cats and two dogs and she considered them to be her "babies" and she thought they "loved" her just because they licked her and followed her etc. I think that technically made her mentally ill to believe in those things. Animals do not "like" or "love" humans. They only use humans for food, shelter, and protection and comfort. People though will project their own human feelings and desires onto their pets and fabricate things that just are not the reality of animals.

Cats are nothing more than predator creatures that only have thoughts to seek food, kill and breed. That's it. They do not "love" their owners.

So when I do google searches for these original questions the internet is just filled with the bleeding heart peta people that think animals are the same as humans and should not be used for profit.

I am interested in the "whys", however I may not actually care about all the "whys" if I deem them to come from a humans emotional perspective and not something relevant to what a animal like a cat or dog actually feels/thinks.

Example, I had no idea that overbreeding could cause lack of milk in the Queen... these are the types of information that I am looking for.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
Think about the timing. A cat's pregnancy is approximately 9 weeks. Then the queen will be nursing the kittens typically for somewhere between 7 and 9 weeks. She's already at 4 months at that point. 3 litters a year would mean breeding her as soon as the kittens are weaned, with no time to rest an recover. 4 litters a year would mean breeding her while she's still nursing the previous litter, thereby increasing the stress on her body exponentially.

That's just one of the reasons many ethical breeders limit a queen to no more than 2 litters a year, or even 3 litters over 2 years.
Well, that makes more sense I suppose numbers wise.

I was wondering if a Cat can get pregnancy & have kittens while still nursing her previous litter, I had no idea if they could. So there you go, another piece of information I have learned just since joking today. I am just trying to learn all the information so I can make educated decisions.
 

GoldyCat

Moderator
Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
15,781
Purraise
4,695
Location
Arizona
Well, that makes more sense I suppose numbers wise.

I was wondering if a Cat can get pregnancy & have kittens while still nursing her previous litter, I had no idea if they could. So there you go, another piece of information I have learned just since joking today. I am just trying to learn all the information so I can make educated decisions.
A cat can get pregnant within days after having a litter.
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
Nobody here bashes ethical, good breeders. I myself, have a pedigree Maine Coon in addition to domestics.

Many other members here have pedigree cats and some even are breeders.

All of my cats have been lovely cats. Any cat raised well has the capacity to be a well adjusted, social cat. It's not specific to pedigree cats.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16

originalcatdaddy

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Nov 26, 2023
Messages
11
Purraise
0
Nobody here bashes ethical, good breeders. I myself, have a pedigree Maine Coon in addition to domestics.

Many other members here have pedigree cats and some even are breeders.

All of my cats have been lovely cats. Any cat raised well has the capacity to be a well adjusted, social cat. It's not specific to pedigree cats.
How many females can a breeder have before being considered a kitty mill? Would an operation with 20 females and 4 studs be considered a bad kitten factory, or would that be acceptable as long as the conditions were clean and they were all well cared for and not overbred?
 

sivyaleah

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
6,264
Purraise
5,229
Location
New Jersey
Kitten mill has more to do with the quality (or lack thereof) of care which includes overbreeding. Allowing queens to breed too often, lack of medical care, lack of a clean environment, being caged 24/7, lack of good nutrition and overcrowding, taking babies away from their mom too young resulting in poorly socialized kittens and lack of daily human interactions (including hearing common noises they would be exposed to in a home) also winds up being detrimental to kittens. Kitten mills rely on fast sales. Get them in. Get them out mentality. A continuous stream of income from subpar breeding practices. If they can scrimp on quality of care, more in their pocket resulting in low quality food, skipping proper vaccinations and deworming schedules, trying to fix disease without the aid of a vet, spread of disease, on and on. Lets not even get into the genetic issues that will crop up as most mills don't care about the breeding cats backgrounds either.

Any size kitten factory is wrong, though. It just gets worse the more cats are involved. Even if it's just a couple of cats if the care sucks, it's too many.

Good breeders don't breed for money. Most barely break even and many more lose money. They do it to preserve and better the breed.

Personally I don't know of any decent ones that have that many females. Most I know (several that I've built up online relationships with over the years) usually top out around 6 queens and 2-3 kings (+/-).

It's near impossible to care properly for that many cats unless you have extended family to help out. You need both time and space so that all cats are as content as possible. Having a good job to fall back on for income is necessary. They aren't looking for a steady stream of income from breeding and the best of the best are also involved in showing their cats and other cat related activities.
 

FeebysOwner

TCS Member
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
22,653
Purraise
33,652
Location
Central FL (Born in OH)
I didn't see it mentioned here, so forgive me if it was - but, the average life span of a feral or outdoor cat, happy or not, can be as much as half that of a spayed/neutered indoor cat/pet.

I also took exception to this comment: "Cats are nothing more than predator creatures that only have thoughts to seek food, kill and breed. That's it. They do not "love" their owners" You can place me in the bleeding-heart group if you want, but a cat that is taken care of for the purposes of a being a pet as opposed solely to being a breeding money-maker will display loyalty - and love. There are different definitions of love and what it means, btw. A person such as yourself can 'take good care of' cats in general, but your attitude is something that a cat - or any animal for that matter - can instinctively pick up on. They may not be on the same level that you place yourself intellectually, but their instincts will beat out a human's - yours included - hands down, every time.

I am glad you are trying to get educated regarding breeding, but after reading this thread, I think a worthy breeder looks upon their cats much differently than you currently do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top