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Why Breed?
- Thread starter pingu
- Start Date
Hi Pingu,
I can only speak for myself but I breed beautiful Persians & Exotics because my goal is to better the breed and to make it perfect. You are right there are many other cats that need homes, then maybe how about people start desexing their pets? So the problem stops. Here in NZ we don't have such a big problem.
Sam
I can only speak for myself but I breed beautiful Persians & Exotics because my goal is to better the breed and to make it perfect. You are right there are many other cats that need homes, then maybe how about people start desexing their pets? So the problem stops. Here in NZ we don't have such a big problem.
Sam
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People breed to keep some breeds alive.. Good breeders help the gene pool and help give the world healthy cats... I have actually never gotten any animal from a real breeder but am very thankful for the one that breed the yorkie I adopted... In the futre will likely get from a breeder Mom wants siamese I want bengal and german shepard
Wow, loaded question!
One of the more important reasons I breed the Old-Style Siamese is to preserve the healthier genetic diversity within the breed overall. After years of researching pedigrees, my findings show that the modern, extreme Siamese shown in the big cat associations all seem to be descended over and over again from the same very small handful of top show champion cats. This has benefitted the show style Siamese breeders, allowing them to achieve much greater consistency in the appearance of Siamese and it has allowed them to achieve ever-better results in terms of color, pattern contrast and type. However, it is proving to be dangerous.
Because, in producing cats that are the exact replicas of each other, breeders have also cloned some genetic defects. It can't be helped. Most genetic defects are subtle and cannot be recognized at birth or simply won't be evident in every cat that inherits the defect. It is at best difficult and at worst impossible for breeders to recognize and eliminate subtle or late-appearing defects from their breeding cats. For example, a defect that shortens the lifespan of a cat by four years would not be noticed by most breeders since oftentimes the kittens are sold as pets - the breeders lose contact with the kitten's owners or the owners simply don't keep in touch with the breeder, or if such defects are noticed, they weren't found in time to affect breeding decisions. Statistically, many breeders quit breeding after only a short time - five to ten years at most - and once retired, typically do not keep their breeding queens or studs, choosing instead to adopt them out as pets. Not keeping these cats to observe how they progress seriously limits the information they can obtain about them.
The Old-Style Siamese tend to have a more varied set of ancestors than the modern, extreme-Oriental cats. They share the same original Siamese ancestors that modern Siamese have, but the Old-Style Siamese tend to have more different ancestors as well. Many of those ancestors were discarded from the breeding programs that produced today's modern show Siamese because they did not have the desired extreme body type traits and it isn't uncommon to see the name of such a cat only appear once or at most twice within a long pedigree. As a result, their traits, including possibly valuable noncosmetic traits including health, were lost from the modern Siamese lines and survived only in the breeding programs of the very few non-mainstream breeders. The Old-Style Siamese are a great source of genetic diversity and they provide survival insurance to the entire Siamese breed. If only we could get the modern breeders to agree. *sigh*
That is why I breed Old Style Siamese cats.
One of the more important reasons I breed the Old-Style Siamese is to preserve the healthier genetic diversity within the breed overall. After years of researching pedigrees, my findings show that the modern, extreme Siamese shown in the big cat associations all seem to be descended over and over again from the same very small handful of top show champion cats. This has benefitted the show style Siamese breeders, allowing them to achieve much greater consistency in the appearance of Siamese and it has allowed them to achieve ever-better results in terms of color, pattern contrast and type. However, it is proving to be dangerous.
Because, in producing cats that are the exact replicas of each other, breeders have also cloned some genetic defects. It can't be helped. Most genetic defects are subtle and cannot be recognized at birth or simply won't be evident in every cat that inherits the defect. It is at best difficult and at worst impossible for breeders to recognize and eliminate subtle or late-appearing defects from their breeding cats. For example, a defect that shortens the lifespan of a cat by four years would not be noticed by most breeders since oftentimes the kittens are sold as pets - the breeders lose contact with the kitten's owners or the owners simply don't keep in touch with the breeder, or if such defects are noticed, they weren't found in time to affect breeding decisions. Statistically, many breeders quit breeding after only a short time - five to ten years at most - and once retired, typically do not keep their breeding queens or studs, choosing instead to adopt them out as pets. Not keeping these cats to observe how they progress seriously limits the information they can obtain about them.
The Old-Style Siamese tend to have a more varied set of ancestors than the modern, extreme-Oriental cats. They share the same original Siamese ancestors that modern Siamese have, but the Old-Style Siamese tend to have more different ancestors as well. Many of those ancestors were discarded from the breeding programs that produced today's modern show Siamese because they did not have the desired extreme body type traits and it isn't uncommon to see the name of such a cat only appear once or at most twice within a long pedigree. As a result, their traits, including possibly valuable noncosmetic traits including health, were lost from the modern Siamese lines and survived only in the breeding programs of the very few non-mainstream breeders. The Old-Style Siamese are a great source of genetic diversity and they provide survival insurance to the entire Siamese breed. If only we could get the modern breeders to agree. *sigh*
That is why I breed Old Style Siamese cats.
I breed because I absolutely love everything about the bengal cat. I love the way it looks and the way it acts. I can't imagine a world without bengals or any other unique breed for that matter.
Would you want to lose all these great breeds of cats because some people are not responsible enough to spay/neuter thier pets?
Would you want to lose all these great breeds of cats because some people are not responsible enough to spay/neuter thier pets?
Oh Amen! I have a Lilac Siamese and he has been my dream cat. Bengals are beautiful, beautiful animals.
I can only say that these breeders make a lot of people happy (speaking certainly for myself).
What makes me unhappy are persons who don't take their animals to be neutered and THAT's what causes the overpopulation problem - not the responsible breeders.
I have to say here, that I myself am not a breeder, however, i have both a purebred cat and 2 resued moggies. For me, and the breed that I specifically have chosen to keep up with, the Turkish Van, it is a matter of culture and heritage. These cats show different traits than those that you can adopt here, and are a part of MY history as a Turk. It makes my dad happy to know that the breed is alive and well here, and Ghibli has made a perfect addition to our little family. He is healthy and loving, and extremely intelligent!
I think everyone else who has answered has answered well. We breed to keep the breed intact, and to make it better. And healthy. In this world sadly not everyone will take in just any kittie cat. that being said. I am just starting in my breeding. and have four cats for my foundation.. but my total cat population of the house is 14
everyon else is a moggie..and fixed
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I breed modern siamese to improve and preserve the breed. There are very few modern siamese breeders in Florida. I had to seach for over a year to find my females. Then I had to spend a very large sum of money to get them. My show female cost me $1000 dollars. I do not think that this is fair, that to get a breeder started they have to pay about 1500 dollars. My purpose is to produce show quality siamese at affordable prices. The whole breeders rights charge is wrong. It is just a way for the select few modern breeders to get twice the amount for the kitten. I will grant whoever wants breeding rights them after they demonstrate to me that they are devoted to improving the breed, and are not in it for the money. If they dont specify to me that they want to breed then I do make them sign a spay/neuter contract.
There are very few good modern breeders in Florida. There are some that really inbreed their cats and others that wont even talk to you about breeding rights because they dont want any competition. We had a show here in Tampa a month ago, there were only two siamese breeders in the entire show. One of them was my mentor and breeder of my cats.
Overall, there are very few modern siamese and I want to give people a chance to enjoy them as much as I do.
There are very few good modern breeders in Florida. There are some that really inbreed their cats and others that wont even talk to you about breeding rights because they dont want any competition. We had a show here in Tampa a month ago, there were only two siamese breeders in the entire show. One of them was my mentor and breeder of my cats.
Overall, there are very few modern siamese and I want to give people a chance to enjoy them as much as I do.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Well, I personally think that there are a very, very , VERY select few breeders out there who are truly responsible and are truly looking out for the purification and preservation of their chosen breed, in comparison to the vast and disgusting number of people who just breed their cats to make money, because kittens are cute, because it's good for the kids, because they love their pet and want more of her, because they own a purebred and think that they can breed it without being a registred cattery with experience, or because they didn't spay/neuter early enough. The truly great breeders do all they can to NOT contribute to the pet overpopulation, but, unfortunately, this is not (by a long shot) how the majority of kitten births occur.Originally Posted by Pingu
Thank you all for the kind answers. I just was not sure why people breed because of all the cats that do need homes, but now I know! I guess its better to try and purify a breed so it can become better.
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I would agree lioness. Over and over I see websites that say "we breed quality not quantity." Yet when you look at their kitten page you see tons of kittens available for sale. Sadly, many so-called breeders look at this as an easy way to become rich, but if you truly are preserving the breed, you know that money is not what you will make. By the time you factor in quality food for all the cats the care of the female while pregant, the male stud care, the vaccinations, building a stud enclosure, vet bills, etc.... you really don't break even, and sometimes you are in the red.
Their actions (the unethical breeders) taint the truer actions of the cat fanciers that want to preserve the very best of the lines, and do all within their power to keep the old lines going. They do not try experiments and cross-breed, they breed only the lines they want to keep going, because otherwise, the lines would become extinct.
Their actions (the unethical breeders) taint the truer actions of the cat fanciers that want to preserve the very best of the lines, and do all within their power to keep the old lines going. They do not try experiments and cross-breed, they breed only the lines they want to keep going, because otherwise, the lines would become extinct.
People who allow their pets to become pregnant "to make money, because kittens are cute, because it's good for the kids, because they love their pet and want more of her, because they own a purebred and think that they can breed it without being a registred cattery with experience, or because they didn't spay/neuter early enough" are not breeders. They are totally misguided individuals who give the rest of us a bad name.
No, the majority of kitten births occur because of under-educated, under-informed, under-financially-able people do not act responsibly in caring for their pets by having them sexually altered.
No, the majority of kitten births occur because of under-educated, under-informed, under-financially-able people do not act responsibly in caring for their pets by having them sexually altered.
In response to megmar, I hate to contradict you, but there are MANY, MANY modern Siamese breeders in Florida. So, you saw two at a show. Wow! You think that these two breeders are protecting themselves from competition??!? They are protecting themselves from people who think they should take that breeder's work and devotion to the breed who has developed a certain look within a bloodline and spread his lines all over the place to pet buyers and BYBs? If you believe that you are paying too much at $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 for a top show cat, you are dreaming! If you even suggested to a good breeder that you were planning on breeding affordable show cats as a goal, then I can't imagine who would have sold you a kitten for breeding.
If you don't plan on showing yourself, this is even more a reason for not having a breeder sell to you. A person who does not show cannot tell what a show-quality kitten is. They have absolutely no comparison to go by, and the worst pet from a good breeding program should still meet the breed standard as it is written in each of the associations.
Where in the world did you get the idea that modern breeders were gouging the public? A modern show breeder is not going to sell a show kitten to someone who doesn't show - it would be a total waste of a good cat. You better believe that it costs an investment in getting good quality blood lines to breed from - it prevents idiots who want to just have kittens from getting into the fancy. Furthermore, no breeder is going to allow you to spread his or her bloodlines around for a cheap price because you think everyone should be able to have affordable show cats! Who is mentoring you????? Of course breeding and showing is an investment - it's an investment of money, time, care, concern, mentoring others and becomes a complete lifestyle since all of one's activities are planned around the cats in their care. It truly amazes me how little is actually known by the majority of people about what SERIOUS breeders and their activities involve. (*sigh*)
Barb A.
If you don't plan on showing yourself, this is even more a reason for not having a breeder sell to you. A person who does not show cannot tell what a show-quality kitten is. They have absolutely no comparison to go by, and the worst pet from a good breeding program should still meet the breed standard as it is written in each of the associations.
Where in the world did you get the idea that modern breeders were gouging the public? A modern show breeder is not going to sell a show kitten to someone who doesn't show - it would be a total waste of a good cat. You better believe that it costs an investment in getting good quality blood lines to breed from - it prevents idiots who want to just have kittens from getting into the fancy. Furthermore, no breeder is going to allow you to spread his or her bloodlines around for a cheap price because you think everyone should be able to have affordable show cats! Who is mentoring you????? Of course breeding and showing is an investment - it's an investment of money, time, care, concern, mentoring others and becomes a complete lifestyle since all of one's activities are planned around the cats in their care. It truly amazes me how little is actually known by the majority of people about what SERIOUS breeders and their activities involve. (*sigh*)
Barb A.
Actually, in my own way of thinking, food for the adult cats is not a true cattery expense - because in my home, there would be Siamese cats whether or not I was actively breeding them. I would need to purchase food and litter anyway. Expenses for vet visits that relate specifically to the adults' reproductive issues, food for the kittens for as long as they are here, vet care for the kittens including their vaccines and health certifications ... those things are indeed considered expenses.
The fact is here that genetic diversity is paramount in a preservation program. We ~must~ outcross. But we must also sometimes selectively inbreed. Most people see the word "inbreed" and automatically think it is a horrible thing. However, when done with intelligence and responsible goals, it can be an enhancement to a line by positively impacting a desired trait in the line.
~gf~
gayef-what you just said above was so true and accurate. Anyway, how do you only qoute part of a post? I can't figure out how to do that.
When you click on the quote and reply link at the bottom of the message, the message you are replying to is copied in the text box. Leaving the quote tags intact, I simply cut out what I don't want to respond to and go on with life.
Hope this helps,
~gf~
Hope this helps,
~gf~
What I'm seeing in pedigrees is more strictly speaking what I would call line breeding rather than inbreeding. Where a particular ancestor appears numerous times in the pedigree, but there are no actual 1st generation crosses (mother/son; sire/daughter; brother/sister.)
The Maine Coon breed (and several others, but not, unfortunately, Siamese) have a valuable resource in the pawpeds databases where you can put hypothetical crosses into the database and come up with actual numbers on inbreeding percentages. For instance, putting Melichus sire and dam into a "test breeding" (Melichus himself is not in the database as I saw no reason to add him seeing as how he was a neuter) reveals that he was 9.38% inbred. The closest I can get on cats in the database on the boys is a grandsire, Hadakat Paul Bunyan, who is a whopping 0% inbred. I've ordered a certified pedigree for Mithril so I'll be doing a bit more of research on their extended pedigrees when I receive that.
Linebreeding is actually a form of inbreeding *technically*
Some do inbreed closer to set a certain trait especially when a breed is being developed. That's where outcrossing comes in. If you closely inbreed you will probably need to outcross eventually to bring in fresh dna in order to avoid some of the problems that might come out of having to many of the same genes in an individual.
I don't inbreed closely but i'd say that technically I do inbreed because I have some cats with some of the same ancestors in thier line (linebreeding). I don't breed parents to offspring or siblings because I don't know enough about it to avoid problems.
Some do inbreed closer to set a certain trait especially when a breed is being developed. That's where outcrossing comes in. If you closely inbreed you will probably need to outcross eventually to bring in fresh dna in order to avoid some of the problems that might come out of having to many of the same genes in an individual.
I don't inbreed closely but i'd say that technically I do inbreed because I have some cats with some of the same ancestors in thier line (linebreeding). I don't breed parents to offspring or siblings because I don't know enough about it to avoid problems.
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Just to clarify. When I said inbreeding, what I meant is when the so called breeders, let the toms and queens mate, then let the kittens mate with each other and essentially become kitty mills and not ethical breeders. I did not mean to say that those studying lines and genetics that inbreed were unethical. I was talking about those who breed just to breed and don't spay or neuter and let the kittens go at each other all in the name of "making a buck."
