We start Koko on raw tonight

[momofmany]

Nothing like jumping in with 2 feet. If there is a cat who will take to raw in my house, it is Koko. DH is entirely against the idea because he thinks its a lot more work than just dry/canned food. But I really feel that Koko's life depends on it right now. So I have a bag of frozen Primal on hand, and she gets her first pellet of it for dinner tonight.

Keep your fingers crossed that she likes it. It's no harder than feeding canned, and DH won't complain too much about it. And if she doesn't like it? Then I have a lot more immediately research to do to figure out how to make my own and what supplements I need to figure into the equation.

For those that didn't notice my thread in the Cat Health forum, Koko most likely has IBD. I found a good holistic vet today that claims raw is the best diet made for cats. This is in complete conflict with my regular vet, who is horrified by the idea of a raw diet. Eastern medicine, meet western medicine.

 

[ldg]

Amy, you MUST review this spreadsheet. It's an overview of most of the commercial raw foods available. If a local store carries them or can order them, they're typically affordable. It outlines quickly the ingredients, organs, and bone content where available. It also clearly denotes where the proteins are NOT single source. Our cats did NOT like the Primal turkey (the only one we tried). They're not huge fans of anything but fresh turkey, actually. But Primal's turkey is primarily neck. Spreadsheet: http://catcentric.org/ On the right-hand side, scroll down to "Special Features." It's the last link. :nod:

Commercial food is easy to use, and great for transition. I found that once my cats were eating raw, their ... interest in commercial foods with vegetables in it was lacking, and now they don't really like ground bone-in meals.

For Koko, you may want to consider trying Rad Cat or Nature's Menu. Rad Cat is expensive to have shipped - Nature's Menu is NOT. VERY affordable! Both are supplemented with calcium, not bone-in. Carolina's done a lot of work on the subject, and for IBD kitties - at least for the transition - the bone-free meals are often easier on the kitty's digestive system.

I don't know if your vet recommended probiotics or digestive enzymes, but the one thing all my vets agreed on - start them on probiotics to ensure healthy gut flora if feeding raw. And because kitties that have been eating kibble and canned don't have digestive systems operating at ... peak performance, let's say, digestive enzymes can really help them adjust to the acid levels their bodies will need if used for the first 4-6 weeks or so. :nod:

I just use an acidophilus + bifidus probiotic I buy from the refrigerated section at the health food store. I add half a capsule to two meals each day. We're all using Prozyme Original formula digestive enzymes. I started with PetGuard for cats, but did not have a good experience with it.

 

[momofmany]

I got the Primal Chicken and Salmon flavor. Thanks for the heads up and the link. It has chicken as the first ingredient and chicken necks as the second. If Koko doesn't like it, well, there may be others that do, and if nothing else, the dogs will LOVE it. Food doesn't go to waste in my house.

The vet mentioned that he had just read some good things about Rad Cat, but the health store didn't carry it.

DH got home and I told him what I bought, and how easy it was to feed it to Koko (just thaw and drop into a bowl). He started to laugh and asked me if I really thought that I could get away with feeding just Koko raw food. OK, he has a point, which means that I start reading thru all of these threads to learn how to do this to make it palatable to them, and also not be terribly expensive. I have no issue making mine from scratch and freezing portion sizes. DH appears to not have an issue with it as long as it's as easy as thawing and dropping it into a bowl, plus doesn't cost an arm and leg. I've heard people claim that it can actually be less expensive than wet food if you take the time to mix your own.

The holistic vet wasn't going down the path of any supplements until he had his hands on the kids. I get that entirely. So we start the food transition, then make appointments for him to actually see them for the appropriate supplements.

Yup, my journey has just begun. I understand it may be months before it all starts to come together.

 

[ldg]

Amy, I would call to ask about starting on a probiotic. Technically, yes, it's a supplement. But it's not a "supplement" like some kind of vitamin or mineral. It's just a little, um... "added insurance," I guess is the best way to put it, that they've got what they need to handle anything they may encounter bacteria-wise eating raw food that they haven't eating highly processed food. You already know from your interaction with ferals that cats can definitely handle it. But indoor kitties aren't necessarily prepared for it right off the bat.

...and I don't have dogs, but the ferals are loving the cats' leftovers these days. :lol3:

For a quick summary of what we've learned/used, you might want to take a look at the raw transition social group's "raw transition resources" thread. :nod:

 

[ldg]

BTW, on cost.... I don't know what your daily cost works out to be, but mine worked out to about $12 a day (I was feeding high end canned). I initially calculated that my 8 would need about 2 pounds of raw food a day (though it's looking more like it'll be 1.5 - 1.75 pounds). So for me, anything under $6.00 per pound (gave myself a $7 per pound budget) means I'm not spending more on the diet than I was. It's working out to be more like $5 per pound, and heading down as we move to frankenprey. :nod: (No point in a grinder for us as the cats TOTALLY prefer chunks/strips to ground).

mschauer talks about her home-made process and cost here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241317/what-60-lbs-of-homemade-ground-looks-like

BTW, Hare Today has very reasonable prices for already prepped all kinds of things - chunks, ground mixes, etc. It is another company with very reasonable shipping charges. They do not add supplements to their ground mixes, and if grinding, taurine at a minimum must be added to the diet. Carolina and I bought the alnutrin supplement. When the meat arrived, I just dethawed, added the supplement appropriately, and bagged in proper portions and refroze. :nod:

If you need another freezer down the line, craigslist is your friend. :lol3:

Tomorrow I have mostly chunks of meats and organs arriving. I don't know how much you've read about raw yet, but you don't need supplements if you use chunks of meat, properly balanced between bone and organ, and with good rotation on the proteins. FYI, for frankenprey, heart, gizzard, lung are not "organs," they're muscle meats. "Organ" means secreting organ. Spleen, pancreas, thyroid, etc. are difficult to find unless you feed whole prey (which is what their ground mixes are). The "guide" for frankenprey is 80% muscle meats / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ. https://www.hare-today.com/ In transitioning to frankenprey, I'm going boneless at first (using an eggshell supplement for calcium), because my cats are still working on chewing. :lol3:

Don't mean to throw so much info at you... just mean to "alert" you to options as you navigate the process. :nod:

 

[feralvr]

Hi Amy !!! Welcome to the raw camps :lol3: I really hope that Koko takes to the raw because it has been amazing for Carolina's Bugsy and I think it will be very good for Koko too. A bit of work in the beginning figuring out what works and what doesn't - but SO easy if the cat's readily take to it. My Walden and Wendall made the transition so easy for me. A cake walk. BUT the four Pickies - a whole other story. Let's just hope that Koko is a natural :cross:

 

[carolina]

Hi Amy!
Congratulations on your decision! This will be truly wonderful for your Koko, no doubt!
A few notes: The most important one..... and I can't stress this enough: Start small. I started Bugsy with one Tea Spoon a day.... Then I doubled it on the second Day.... then added a third on the third.... 4 on the 4th.... all the while adding one more of the raw, removing one of the wet. Until that he was eating 100% raw - it took a full 8 days.

Probiotics is really a must.... You want that flora as healthy as possible.... I have 2 vets working with Bugsy - both of them recommended Proviable-DC as being the best one. You can use another one like Laurie does as well.... just make sure that it is at least 5billion CFU - to give you a perspective, Fortiflora is only 100million..... Proviable DC is a "mere" 500x stronger

It is VERY expensive in the vet's office (like $80) but at Amazon I pay about $35-36.... for 80 capsules with free shipping.....not too bad

For enticing her to eat, you can use Whole Life Chicken - This is like halo, but without the carragernan - Whole life is pure, 100% chicken.... no additives, nothing added..... my kitties go gaga for it, and they will eat a rock if this is sprinkled over it :lol3: I put a bunch in my magic bullet (smoothie maker) and turn into a fine powder - but you can just crumble it with your hands......

I saw something on your other thread about putting your other babies on a schedule - without stressing them out..... Here is what I did with Lucky - might work with yours too..... It was not stressful at all, and she turned herself into a scheduled eater on her own...... Trained by me, but on her own.
Lucky was free-fed kibbles and did not eat any wet......

Basically, here is how I did it:
Establish meal times - Here in my house it is 9am, 6pm and 11pm
Establish feeding areas.....

During those meal times, and those times only, you feed them - you sit with them and make them company for 20-30 minutes. Every time. You also serve fresh food, from the bag, at those times - on their own bowls. Even if that will mean having a whole bunch of plates..... Let it be - do it.
Once that time is gone, they have no more attention from you as far as food goes...... unless it is for wet or raw... until the next meal time.
20 minutes on the dot you get up and leave the feeding area. The plates stay with the kibbles.... They will have their food to graze, and will not go hungry....
Here is what you will notice though - naturally, little by little, you will notice that they will start to wait for those meal times. You will start to notice that more and more food is left in the bowls, and they are eating only when you are around - as they want your company.
This totally worked with Lucky!
She wasn't stressed.... I did not force her into a schedule.... nor pulled her plate..... She simply stopped eating while I wasn't there - she wanted to eat at meal times -with me.
This whole process has taught me a lot about their personalities..... They love a good routine..... And they love this bonding we get to have with them.... it is really special :heart3:
I can't wait for you to start noticing all the benefits of raw - it is truly amazing what just feeding what nature intended them to eat can do for them :nod:

 

[momofmany]

Koko ate about 1/2 of the nugget last night (each nugget is 1/2 oz), then walked away when she smelled the canned food that I was feeding the rest of the gang. So I dropped Koko's bowl next to Stumpy, who left his wet food for the raw. He left some raw in the bowl, so as an experiment, I dropped some wet in that bowl on one side and pushed the raw to the other side. Spanky jumps up, smells the bowl, and went after the raw (Spanky is my kibble junky and terribly overweight). He left and Scarlett finished the raw.

This morning, Koko ate only about 1/3 of the nugget and now Scarlett is up there eating what she left. Muddy and Spanky are at the vets for dentals today, so don't know if they would eat some of it.

Today is self education day. I'm not convinced that they really like the Primal, so I'll look into the other foods that people have mentioned here.

Carolina - I have a regular feeding time at night (8 PM) and a not as rigid one in the morning. Everyone has their bowls at night, but only a few of the cats participate in the morning feeding (this is when Muddy gets his prescription canned food). I was planning on expanding the morning feeding, and know this will take a little time. Today is a weird day as 2 of the cats are gone.

When I dropped off the cats this morning at the vets, one of the vet techs, who happened to be the one that pet sat for me a few weeks back was there. I mentioned going to raw, and mentioned that I went to a holistic vet for guidance. She asked me who I went to, then told me she worked at his clinic for 2 months before leaving in disgust. Apparently while his eastern medicine is sound, he really sucks at western medicine (killed a dog during surgery because he was too inexperienced for the surgery). But she did give me a couple references for both another holistic vet, as well as a regular vet. She said if she didn't work at this clinic, she'd bring her pets to that vet. So, I may be looking for a different vet very soon. Haven't been entirely happy with my current one for a while. She's a GREAT surgeon, but she actually admitted to me the other day that the arthritis in her hands is getting worse and making surgeries more difficult. I wonder if she realized what she admitted to me.

 

[carolina]

Koko ate about 1/2 of the nugget last night (each nugget is 1/2 oz), then walked away when she smelled the canned food that I was feeding the rest of the gang. So I dropped Koko's bowl next to Stumpy, who left his wet food for the raw. He left some raw in the bowl, so as an experiment, I dropped some wet in that bowl on one side and pushed the raw to the other side. Spanky jumps up, smells the bowl, and went after the raw (Spanky is my kibble junky and terribly overweight). He left and Scarlett finished the raw.
This morning, Koko ate only about 1/3 of the nugget and now Scarlett is up there eating what she left. Muddy and Spanky are at the vets for dentals today, so don't know if they would eat some of it.
Today is self education day. I'm not convinced that they really like the Primal, so I'll look into the other foods that people have mentioned here.
Carolina - I have a regular feeding time at night (8 PM) and a not as rigid one in the morning. Everyone has their bowls at night, but only a few of the cats participate in the morning feeding (this is when Muddy gets his prescription canned food). I was planning on expanding the morning feeding, and know this will take a little time. Today is a weird day as 2 of the cats are gone.
When I dropped off the cats this morning at the vets, one of the vet techs, who happened to be the one that pet sat for me a few weeks back was there. I mentioned going to raw, and mentioned that I went to a holistic vet for guidance. She asked me who I went to, then told me she worked at his clinic for 2 months before leaving in disgust. Apparently while his eastern medicine is sound, he really sucks at western medicine (killed a dog during surgery because he was too inexperienced for the surgery). But she did give me a couple references for both another holistic vet, as well as a regular vet. She said if she didn't work at this clinic, she'd bring her pets to that vet. So, I may be looking for a different vet very soon. Haven't been entirely happy with my current one for a while. She's a GREAT surgeon, but she actually admitted to me the other day that the arthritis in her hands is getting worse and making surgeries more difficult. I wonder if she realized what she admitted to me.

Amy, this food has a lot of bones - but you can pick it out...... Nature's Variety Rabbit. It was out of stock for a long time..... My cats didn't like ANY of the other ones...... But all of our cats - Laurie's, Lauren's and mine Loved the Rabbit..... All did well on it as well.... And it is 100% pathogen free.....

Check if is back in stock.... if it is, it is a good one..... Try to see if Rad Cat is sold Anywhere near you - Lamb and Turkey are the best flavors..... Chicken is the one that my cats like the least..... but they will kill a cow for the lamb :lol3: http://www.radfood.com/where_to_buy

 

[feralvr]

My cat's did do really well on Nature's Variety Rabbit and I am waiting "patiently" for more to come into the market again. My cat's actually LOVE the Nature's Variety Organic Chicken. The ground bone is fourth on the ingredient list as opposed to second in the regular chicken (which has turkey too). I do pick out the larger bone pieces before I serve them. Walden and Wendall love all of the proteins that NV offers. My cats did not like Primal and I tried the turkey and the chicken/salmon. If the cat's don't finish their meals then the dogs get it OR the ferals :lol3: So I am not having to throw out food. Just keep trying different brands. It really helps if they have sample packages. I wish I could get Rad Cat - but it is not sold in the Midwest anywhere.... yet.

 

[ldg]

The NV rabbit isn't back in stock, and, in fact, the cans of rabbit are becoming scarce now too. And Amy, my cats loved it because the second ingredient is pork fat. My cats do not like rabbit on its own. It's a very lean meat.

Bummer about the holistic vet not being a good DVM. We still work with two other vet practices, and they all know about each other, and why we see who for what, and we keep the records of cats that are seeing more than one vet current at all the vets they're seeing. :lol3:

 

[momofmany]

The NV rabbit isn't back in stock, and, in fact, the cans of rabbit are becoming scarce now too. And Amy, my cats loved it because the second ingredient is pork fat. My cats do not like rabbit on its own. It's a very lean meat.

Scarlett LOVES anything with pork in it. And Koko pushed my hand aside when I was trying to cut up a pork tenderloin the other day. So my girls would probably like this.

The kids left about 1/2 of the nugget of Primal this morning. I'm guessing the novelty has worn off already.

 

[ldg]

Scarlett LOVES anything with pork in it. And Koko pushed my hand aside when I was trying to cut up a pork tenderloin the other day. So my girls would probably like this.
The kids left about 1/2 of the nugget of Primal this morning. I'm guessing the novelty has worn off already.

:lol3: Yep, that's what happened here.

BTW, I don't mean to be a product pusher, but .... https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21_37&osCsid=0784064c9572eeabd5fdb000ca562706

I buy the 2 lb ground mix and the pork trims. :nod: The ground mix, I dethaw, and add this supplement: https://www.hare-today.com/product_...d=290&osCsid=0784064c9572eeabd5fdb000ca562706 and package into meal-sized bags and refreeze. I use the pork grind as a base to add other proteins.

ETA: Of COURSE it's on sale, now that I just stocked up...

 

[carolina]

:lol3: Yep, that's what happened here.
BTW, I don't mean to be a product pusher, but .... https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21_37&osCsid=0784064c9572eeabd5fdb000ca562706
I buy the 2 lb ground mix and the pork trims. :nod: The ground mix, I dethaw, and add this supplement: https://www.hare-today.com/product_...d=290&osCsid=0784064c9572eeabd5fdb000ca562706 and package into meal-sized bags and refreeze. I use the pork grind as a base to add other proteins.
ETA: Of COURSE it's on sale, now that I just stocked up...

Of course, right? :doh3:

Amy, this is excellent meat!
The kitties here LOVE the rabbit!!
Like Laurie, I bought all my meat for frankerprey from them too.... And the ground I do the same she does - I get the meat/bone/organs mix, defrost, add the alnutrin supplement, put into ziplock baggies and freeze it again - it is as fresh as it goes - the kitties say
I love that there is no veggies, no fruits, nothing in it..... The shipping is cheap cheap, and so is the meat! The rabbit and the goat are raised in her farm, and the other meats all from local farms around her - all humanely raised, pasture raised, vegetarian fed, yadda yadda.... it is good stuff! :nod:
They ship it Monday through Wednesday, and it is usually there in 2 days - my last shipment was for 23lbs of meat, and 2day shipping cost $27.... Not bad.... The cost per/lb came down to $4.27 or something like that....

 

[momofmany]

Koko has lost all interest in the Primal (drats), so I am going to order some of the rabbit based food you recommended today.

What is surprising is the cat that has globbed all over the Primal: Stumpy. Without teeth, I think he likes the texture of it. Next in line is Spanky, my pudgy boy who desperately needs to lose weight. This is a very good thing.

I'm also taking your advice about easing them into it. I'm only pulling out 2 nuggets a day - give one in the morning and one in the evening. Stumpy eats first, then Spanky follows up. After the 2 are finished, I've seen both Muddy and Scarlett nibbling at the bowl. If anything is left after about an hour, Spike (my dog bordering on Cushing's disease) licks the bowl clean. When I get the new food, I'll rotate that in to see who likes it.

As far as I'm concerned, they can all go to raw.

And btw, for the dry food - I'm at 25% grain free mixed with the old C/D right now. The bowl appears to be emptying faster than normal, which tells me that they like the new grain free food. That transition is going to be easy.

 

[feralvr]

Amy- Spike is bordering Cushings?!! My Wilbur - JRT - has been suffering with Cushing's as well. The raw diet has helped him so very much. Although he gets a mixed bag - depending on how he is feeling that day and what he will eat for me. I am treating him holistically now for the disease :cross:

My cat's did not like the Primal either I hope the Hare Today Rabbit will be a big hit with your gang!!!! Stumpy and Spanky will be your easy raw eaters - it seems

 

[ldg]

Amy, if you haven't placed your Hare Today order yet, I really recommend including some pork ground mix. Carolina's love rabbit - mine hate it. They loved the Nature's Variety rabbit, but the second ingredient was pork fat. :lol3: In fact - because the per pound prices are so good, I'd order a bunch of 1 or 2 pound things just to try, and find out what they like off the bat.

Just beware: If you're not using digestive enzymes you MAY want to "cut" the ground meals down with some fresh meat. Kitties new to raw don't necessarily digest all the bones too well, and as Koko has IBD, you definitely don't want her to have an issue with them as they can be irritating to the digestive system. Just a reminder... Nature's Menu has very affordable no-bone meals.

I don't know if you've had the time to read any of our transition threads. But Carolina's Lucky, my Spooky, and Lauren's Walden all had an issue with the ground bones at some point. Spooky and Lucky haven't gone back to eating raw, and not for lack of trying.

And I know it might be a PIA, but when my crew balked at the commercial ground mixes, Auntie Crazy suggested I just try offering them cut up meat. They happen to love it, which is why I'm already moving to Frankenprey. I'm still uncomfortable with them eating whole bones, so I'm trying to figure out how to do it boneless, at least at first. But Shelly basically just refuses to eat ground meat - but loves fresh meat - and so far, all the organs he's supposed to eat. We're trying the kidney for the first time today.... :cross:

 

[momofmany]

Things are on hold for now with any more transitioning until we get to the bottom of Koko's illness. If she does have cancer, the only change I'm going to make is to feed her anything her sweet little heart desires. She enjoyed the deli ham that I gave her last night. I'm at a point where I don't care if it's good for her. She may only have a few weeks or months to live.

For the rest of the household, I'm too overwhelmed by Koko right now. I'll get back into this at a later time.

 

[feralvr]

Things are on hold for now with any more transitioning until we get to the bottom of Koko's illness. If she does have cancer, the only change I'm going to make is to feed her anything her sweet little heart desires. She enjoyed the deli ham that I gave her last night. I'm at a point where I don't care if it's good for her. She may only have a few weeks or months to live.
For the rest of the household, I'm too overwhelmed by Koko right now. I'll get back into this at a later time.

Absolutely - you have to much on your plate right now to deal with a raw transition. Whatever the little sweetie will eat right now - of course you will give her. "Cheese and Danish" if need be. Just know you and Koko are in my prayers, Amy. Holding you very close to my heart :heart3:

 

[ldg]

Absolutely - you have to much on your plate right now to deal with a raw transition. Whatever the little sweetie will eat right now - of course you will give her. "Cheese and Danish" if need be. Just know you and Koko are in my prayers, Amy. Holding you very close to my heart :heart3:

I couldn't say it better. :heart2:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!