Two cats, possibly Siamese?

[leshelby]

Hello! I have two Siamese cats but past that, I have no idea what type they are or how to properly take care of Siamese cats. The first one is a cat I adopted while my shelter had 10$ cat adoptions for older cats...it says on her paperwork she is three years old and a purebred Siamese cat but should I have a pedigree then? She's got very dark blue eyes, they look almost human.

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• leshelby
• Jun 18, 2013

The second is my buddy Thor. My friends cat had kittens and couldn't keep them all so I got this guy when he was 9 weeks old. We also fostered one of his sisters, Loki, but found her a home (with my gramma ) I've heard people say he's a Firetip but not sure what that means...he's all white but has a reddish brown color on his face, and a stripe that goes from his back to the tip of his tail. And as you can probably see in the picture, he's cross eyed. He's definitely long hair too, besides that, I'm not 100% sure what he is.

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• leshelby
• Jun 18, 2013

 

[msbedelia]

Whatever they "are", they're gorgeous and adorable!!!!

 

[leshelby]

Whatever they "are", they're gorgeous and adorable!!!!

Thank you! They are super pretty cats, I've never seen any cats like them.

 

[StefanZ]

The second is my buddy Thor. My friends cat had kittens and couldn't keep them all so I got this guy when he was 9 weeks old. We also fostered one of his sisters, Loki, but found her a home (with my gramma

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• leshelby
• Jun 18, 2013

About nr 1. Is she longhaired?  (tail bushy?) About nr 2, did the siblings look the same? And parents??

Ok, nr 1. Yes, you cant know for sure without the pedigree, = the certificate for a recognized association.  Here  the shelter said she is a purebred siamese like they were sure of it. The problem is, she isnt. In any case, not modern siamese.  and definitely not if she is longhaired.

If she is somewhat longhaired (bushy tail?), I would compare her to a Ragdoll, the Mitted variation.

If shorthaired, she can be compared with Snowshoe, but the breed is quite rare.

nr2, you can compare her perhaps with a Balinese, ie a longhaired siamese.  Balinese tend to have  less extreme prolonged muzzle then the modern siamese.

If her siblings are alikes, she may even be fairly purebred.

If the siblings and parents looks different, not pointed,  she is a case of the wandering point genes - like most pointed moggies.

That means, if mom and dad are both carriers of the point gene, themselves with whatever other looks, about 1/4 of their kittens will be pointed.

Please, come with the additional info I asked for...

Good luck!

 

[leshelby]

Sansa, the first cat, is not long haired, her tail is sleek and not bushy at all.

Here's a picture of Thor and Loki. I have no idea what the parents look like the but I know the other siblings were black and one was even orange, so I don't know how I ended up with a white cat

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• leshelby
• Jun 18, 2013

 

[leshelby]

Here's a better picture of Sansa too. Thanks so much for your help by the way!

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• leshelby
• Jun 18, 2013

 

[StefanZ]

If the siblings and parents looks different, not pointed,  she is a case of the wandering point genes - like most pointed moggies.

That means, if mom and dad are both carriers of the point gene, themselves with whatever other looks, about 1/4 of their kittens will be pointed.

I think this scenario is the answer for both these cats...  Quite common, happens even in my breed, the russian blue, now and then there is born a pointed old type siamese alike among a litter of RB....

 

[maewkaew]

 Wow! They are beautiful cats!  Neither is a Siamese.    but they are beautiful cats with the pointed pattern.   and it's possible the Seal Point and White cat Sansa could be a Snowshoe.  http://www.tica.org/public/breeds/sn/intro.php

  ( which is Siamese x Black and White American Shorthair  - or really I think it was originally not the pedigreed American Shorthairs but random bred "Domestic Shorthairs" that were used to breed the Snowshoes. )

It occurs to me that it's   possible  that the former owner told the shelter she was a  "Snowshoe Siamese" which is what the breed used to be called and the breeder might have used that term,  and they just wrote down "Siamese"  or that's the part they remembered,  and told you.   

 Snowshoes are actually pretty rare.   There are a lot more pointed and white random-bred cats than there are pedigreed Snowshoes.  But those deep blue eyes  are more often seen with selective breeding (though it can sometimes turn up randomly especially in seal points and seal tortie points ) .    

Also the size of her ears is certainly larger than the average Western moggy.        So I am really thinking that is a possibility.  This might be  the first time I have ever told someone  I thought their cat of unknown background was   a  Snowshoe.  

There are so many pointed "moggies" today.  Some people mistakenly think they're all "Siamese".   The gene for the pointed  pattern originally came from Siamese but over the past 100+ years, it's been widely spread throughout the domestic cat populations in the countries to which Siamese were imported.   So by today there are many many many pointed cats with hardly any Siamese in them.      It is a recessive so it can be carried hidden and then pop up by surprise if 2 cats carrying it mate and both give it to a kitten.  

I have pedigreed Siamese  ( old style) but I also have had several adopted pointed cats,   some with very likely recent Siamese ancestry,  some probably the most recent Siamese was very many generations ago.   

   You mentioned Ragdolls,  and they're a breed that originally came from some of those pointed domestic longhairs back in the 1960s.   Ragdolls would have less than 0.00001% Siamese in them  and the same is true for many of the random-bred pointed cats today.     

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• maewkaew
• May 27, 2013

Re the tail:  Her tail might not be bushy ,  but i can see she has an undercoat.  so her tail is probably not as sleek as that of a Siamese.

 Siamese tails tend to look thin compared to other cats,  not just because they're not heavy boned cats,  but because they have a single coat.  They don't have an undercoat to poof out the tail.  That is one of the obvious differences  i have seen between my purebred Siamese and the mixes / pointed moggies.   Here's an example in this photo.   The blue point on the left is a pedigreed / purebred Siamese, of the original moderately oriental type ( foreign type).   The seal point on the right is adopted from Siamese Rescue and is a mix ( won't go into details but there is good reason to think he had quite a bit of Siamese in him,  but the double coat clearly indicates Western ancestry.) 

Can you see the difference in their tails?  

The  "Sia-moggy" guy had a double coat.  also his guard hairs ( outer coat) were definitely longer than the Siamese. 

 Thor is a red point  ( or cream point  if it's pale orange) .     Both his parents carried the pointed gene , and both happened to give it to him.  so he turned out pointed.  Blue eyes always goes with the pattern...  and pointed cats also,  because of the way their vision is wired in their brain , have an increased chance of being cross eyed.  but they don't seem to be really bothered by it.    He's a very pretty cat!   

 

[StefanZ]

Maewkaew: Nice detective thinking Re: Sansa!  I for example do buy this reasoning.  It seems to me you had rescued this snowshoe Sansa once again!  

 

[leshelby]

Thank you Mae! I did have someone yesterday say she looked like a snowshoe and I've done a lot of research on her since then and I think she might be as well. Too bad there's no way to ever fully know, I know they're definitely rare right now. Her tail does look a bit more like the cat on the left in your picture, the cat on the rights tail looks a little bigger and her tail isn't that big. I would say it's more in between but definitely on the thinner side. She chirps like a snowshoe does too, and you're right, it's not a very good picture but her eyes are a very deep blue, while Thors are very light. Thank you for telling me the difference! They definitely both talk like Siamese kitties even though they probably aren't but I love them both just the same! I know a lot about taking care of cats but I still have a lot to learn when it comes to breeding and different breeds. They're both fixed though, shame because I really wish I could see what their kittens would like thank you again!

 

[maewkaew]

 Though  it's just theoretical since they are neutered,  I can tell you what the kitten possibiities would be.  Boys would be probably like mama.  seal point  or seal point and white.  Girls would be tortie points or tortie point and white.     Another possibility if both carry dilute is  blue point boys or blue tortie point girls.   or either of those and white. 

 Shorthairs would certainly be more likely especially if she is a purebred Snowshoe.   If she is carrying the gene for longhair, there would have been possibly some longhairs. 

But it's just as well that they are fixed.  If you ever do decide that you want to get into breeding you should choose a breed you love and spend a lot of time learning about breeding, kitten raising and genetics and health,    preferably spend a while showing an alter of that breed,  get to know people in your breed community,find someone to mentor you ,  and also carefully select your foundation queen and find a suitable stud that would complement her pedigree and conformation.   
  There are just so many homeless cats already that  I don't think it is a good idea to breed without taking it very seriously and doing it to preserve a breed. 

 When you say they talk like Siamese, do you mean they are vocal,  or do you also mean they have the typical Siamese voice?   Actually not even all Siamese have that voice,  so the absence of it doesn't prove a cat doesn't have much Siamese.  but I think if a cat DOES have  The Voice, IMO that is a sign of some probable fairly significant amount of Siamese ancestry.  

 

[leshelby]

Oh no, I would never really breed. Too many kitties that need adopted already. And their voices sorta sound like those of a Siamese, like you said, it's THAT voice. And sansas is more soft and quiet but she does get vocal if she can't find me.