Transitioning To A Better Food

[Azalea]

Hi!
I've never had cats, don't know much about them, and just last week I started fostering a small family, a mother cat and her 5 kittens. I never intended to keep anyone, but I've fallen in love with the mom, and am thinking of adopting her.
Of course I want the best for her and of course I fell into this rabbit hole of reading about pet nutrition... And I was wondering if anyone could give any advice!

She's about 2 years old, pretty tiny, hurt, and supposedly feral but she's incredibly friendly, trusting, and a good mom. Her kittens are about 2 to 3 weeks old, and (probably) her third litter. She was living outside, the neighbors fed her supermarket food once a week. The organisation that took her in provides dry food to foster families, so she's been eating (tons of) Royal Canin kitten food for a week (free feeding). She drinks a lot of water, I leave 2/3 water bowls out so she has options! I'm supplementing that with chicken broth to make sure she drinks enough (it's pretty hot at the moment), and two cans of wet food a day (Schesir & Almo Nature, because they were the best one I could find in a store - but they aren't complete foods, and with her current appetite, they're expensive). She does NOT like the Royal Canin wet food, she'll chose kibble over that.

I'm wondering where to go from here. I'm a uni student, and I don't have the time, knowledge, money, access to supplements, or freezer space to feed her raw food. I also live in France, and don't know of any place that sells premade raw food. I'm thinking of feeding her a mix of a good dry food during the day, and wet food in the morning and evenings (so like 1/3 dry, 2/3 wet). I know this isn't ideal, but I'm away all day, and wet food is expensive and goes bad if left out. I've been calculating the costs, and for a really good dry food (I can order True Instincts, Orijen, Arcana, Thrive, Porta 21, Nutrivet, Purizon.... online) it might be 15 euros a month, but 30 to 60 euros a month for a good wet food (the grain free ones I saw were Bozita, Catz Finefood, Animonda, GranataPet, MACs, Feringa, Schmusy, Smilla, Thrive, Terra Felis, Taste of the Wild, Catessy, Applaws, Porta 21... and some of those are pretty expensive...)
(I'm guesstimating that she's about 2 or 3kg, but I have zero frame of reference so it's just a wild guess).

I was wondering if this is a good idea? Any brands you would recommend? How would I transition her to this? Slowly mix the dry foods together? Should I be concerned about her litterbox habits (she only goes once a day but when does it's practically the size of a small kitten...)?
Should I wait until the kittens are weaned? Until they're adopted?
Also, any advice for the kittens? I'm worried that they'll be stuck with the dry Royal Canin kitten stuff. I'd love to feed them better, but even just supplementing with wet kitten food x5 costs quite a bit, especially if I'm saving for mom's adoption fee. Plus, it might not be a good idea to get them used to the 'premium' stuff if they're going right back to either supermarket or vet recommended food once adopted, unfortunately... Is there any way I can make things a little better though?

Thanks so much for any help or advice!

 

[Ardina]

Hi Azalea! First of all, welcome to TCS! I think your thread got buried, so hopefully you'll get more answers soon as people see it pop back up.

In terms of feeding the mother cat, since she's nursing, she should have access to as much food as she wants. So feeding her two meals of wet food with dry down during the day to snack on would be fine. A lot of people recommend wet food over dry because cats don't have a good thirst drive, and wet food matches the amount of moisture that they would get from hunting prey. Once the kittens are weaned, you could consider giving her 2-3 meals of wet food. Even if you work long hours, you could still do a morning meal, a meal when you get home, and a meal before bed. Some cats are good about self-regulating their food intake, and others tend to get overweight when they have access to dry food constantly. So see how she does and you can decide from there. When picking a brand (either wet or dry), stick with foods that have meat as the first several ingredients and stay away from foods with a lot of grains, carbs, or vegetable fillers. Also, keep in mind that price doesn't necessarily correlate with how "good" a food is. Some grocery store brands like Fancy Feast classics (not sure if you have that in France) don't have grain or a lot of carbs and can be a good choice on a budget.

Now kittens can eat a lot, so I definitely get how expensive feeding them just wet food can be. The important thing for kittens is that once they wean, you want to expose them to a variety of foods and textures so they grow up to be non-picky cats. So feed them some dry, some pate, some chunky wet, and a variety of brands - both grocery-store brands and premium stuff. More often than not, cats prefer the cheaper brands with tons of additives and unhealthy stuff, so I wouldn't worry about them getting stuck eating only the premium food.

Hope this helps!

 

[Azalea]

Thanks for your reply, it was helpful! I might also have been a little long winded and unclear, there's just too much to figure out
Plus I assume most of the brands I listed, other than the imported ones, are not the same ones as in America, so asking for opinions on those probably won't lead to much
(And sorry for replying so late, I had this, baby kittens rolling around in diarrhea at 5am issue, and an unsuccessful start at using the litter box all over the floor everywhere at 3 weeks old issue, and a worried mother cat moving her babies around every night issue, and a tiny kitten not gaining weight because her siblings were pushing her aside and there wasn't space for 5 issue.... ).
(Just another question, could the 3 week old sneaking licks of her mom's wet food have been the cause of her diarrhea? And if so, was it the food or just her age? I'm worried about the weaning process now!)

So I can safely assume that the mom's not eating too much? She's always begging for food when I go to the kitchen, despite eating something like 110g dry food and 100g wet food plus the occasional treat everyday, and has a bit of a belly now then again there are five kittens...

And finally (I'll try to not ask too many questions) is it normal for a cat to have issues chewing? She doesn't like the bigger pieces of wet food (she's fine with the shredded ones though) and will just eat the gravy, or will sort through the pieces, but also I've give her freeze dried meat treats, and even when I break them up into smaller pieces, she'll chew them a few times and just let then drop out of her mouth. Same for the small bit of liver I gave her, although she loved it once I mashed it up. Is this normal, should I get it checked out?
Or have I just succeeded in making her picky in little over a week? X) my friend's fostering too, and she only feeds dry food and very rare treats, and they seem to be a lot less picky than mine!

Thanks!

 

[Ardina]

You've definitely had a lot to deal with! And yes, I can't help much on non-US brands unfortunately.

Just another question, could the 3 week old sneaking licks of her mom's wet food have been the cause of her diarrhea? And if so, was it the food or just her age? I'm worried about the weaning process now!

Three weeks is a bit young for weaning I think. Four and half to five weeks is closer to the norm. I don't think that a few licks of food would necessarily caused diarrhea, but I'm not too experienced with kittens, so don't take my word for it. If you post a thread in the Pregnant Cats and Kitten Care forum, you will get help from people much more experienced than me.

So I can safely assume that the mom's not eating too much? She's always begging for food when I go to the kitchen, despite eating something like 110g dry food and 100g wet food plus the occasional treat everyday, and has a bit of a belly now then again there are five kittens...

Nursing five kittens uses up a lot of calories! So definitely feed her as much as she wants and keep encouraging her to drink water too to stay hydrated. You can give her some KMR as well if you have it on hand as a good calcium source.

And finally (I'll try to not ask too many questions) is it normal for a cat to have issues chewing? She doesn't like the bigger pieces of wet food (she's fine with the shredded ones though) and will just eat the gravy, or will sort through the pieces, but also I've give her freeze dried meat treats, and even when I break them up into smaller pieces, she'll chew them a few times and just let then drop out of her mouth. Same for the small bit of liver I gave her, although she loved it once I mashed it up. Is this normal, should I get it checked out?

Have you taken her to the vet? She may have issues with her teeth. If the vet rules out any issues, she may just prefer the pate texture foods. Many cats have preferences about texture that are often set when they're young kittens. Hence why you want to expose these kittens to a wide variety of textures and foods to help them be non-picky as adults.

Or have I just succeeded in making her picky in little over a week? X) my friend's fostering too, and she only feeds dry food and very rare treats, and they seem to be a lot less picky than mine!

I'm probably a bad person to ask about that since my own cats are notoriously picky. My working theory is that the more you beg your cats to eat and the less hungry they are, the pickier they get.

Feel free to keep asking questions - we're here to help.

 

[Azalea]

Thank you so much! I'll definitely go check out the kitten care forum, there's so much to know about them XD

KMR is pretty expensive, because I can only find it sold in large quantities, but I've tried giving her lactose free milk, which she's okayish with but won't drink a lot of. She does likes chicken broth and I've frozen portions of it for her
I also add water to her wet food when I mash it up for her. (I also home made the chicken broth, and serve her food at 'freshly killed mouse' temperature. She did not seem picky when she first arrived, there may be some sort of correlation here )

She hasn't been to the vet yet (that's why I got such a big family for a first foster, because they needed to be quarantined and the other foster families already had other pets). The rescue organisation said she should go once the kittens are weaned, to be spayed - I know it's expensive and they don't have much of a budget for overly worried foster mom vet visits XD. I'll ask about it when she does go, and in the meantime start using my blender again XD I don't know if it's a texture thing though, because it seems like she only eats by licking her food. And if it were, why would she chew food/treats once or twice and then just let it drop out of her mouth?

I was running out of dry food, so I gave her 250g wet food today, and she had horrible diarrhea, and I found cassia gum in the third ingredient list (why would you split up an ingredient list into three parts???), which is super disappointing because it was the most affordable grain free, vegetable/plant free, byproduct free foods I could find. Oh well. My studio apartment used to smell nice. (It also used to be clean, decorated, and houseplant filled and my sofa didn't used to be so furry either ). Why does feeding cats have to be so complicated? Now I'm scared to give anything containing cassia gum to her or her kittens (and I have a large pack of those cans left)- and I almost think using something gluten based as a thickener would be preferable to cassia. (Why don't they use gelatin, isn't that okay for cats?)

Anyways thanks so much for the answers!

 

[foxden]

Azalea
I'm not an expert at cats or kittens, but I believe you're overthinking this a bit.

I admire that you want to feed this family the best food available. As a student, your budget is also important. You can't allow yourself to spend so much money on food that you are unable to save money towards adoption fees, future vet bills and all the non-pet related expenses that may occur.

A nursing mother needs food she will eat. Fancy Feast classic (pate), Sheba and some other grocery brands are reasonably good foods at decent prices and will help get liquid and calories into your queen.

KMR is available in a powdered form. I found that was more affordable than the premixed varieties. I believe the experts in the Pregnant Cat and Kitten forum recommend full fat goat's milk as an alternative to KMR. I believe any goat's milk would be better than even lactose-free cow's milk. Introduce the goats milk or KMR to your mom slowly. It is very rich and can cause diarrhea. You can give it in a bowl or mix it in with her wet food.

I fostered a mom with 6 kittens from a few days old out to 12 weeks. I fed her Friskies pate canned food and left plenty of dry kitten food out. I made a lot of mush of canned food with KMR while the kittens were weaning, and as treats......
I think I fed them Science Diet (13+ years ago) but I did not have the benefit of information from TCS at that time. I kept Kiki, the mom. The kittens went back to the rescue. Kiki was really skinny when the kittens went back, even though they were eating both wet and dry food then.

Your family will do fine on good quality cat food. They don't require premium food. The best thing to feed the kittens is a good grade dry food and a variety of good canned food flavors and brands so they don't become picky eaters. I would suggest choosing one brand of dry food (ask the shelter if they prefer a specific brand) and then vary the canned food flavors/brands. You want the kittens to eat the dry food the rescue will recommend to their "fur-ever" families at adoption time.

You will have plenty of time to switch mom's food to a premium brand after the kittens return to the rescue. Her appetite and her weight will stabilize, and you'll be able to figure out what works best for you.

Litter boxes for kittens: You need non-clumping litter for kittens, as they will sometimes eat the litter.
You can try shallow aluminum foil baking trays from the dollar (euro?) store as kitten-size litter boxes when they get to that point.

Enjoy your kittens -- they grow up very quickly.

 

[Azalea]

I know I might be overthinking this, but, well I do want the best for them Especially because the mom gorgeous and would easily be adopted to a good home, so I want to know I can give her a good home. Plus, it's a lot cheaper and easier to order food online, but there's a minimum amount you have to order to save on shipping fees, so I was trying to figure out exactly what I needed, to buy it all at once if possible.

We don't have Fancy Feast, and Sheba is still more expensive than the grain free brands I was able to find (Sheba's like 11euros/kg at the supermarket, which isn't much cheaper than a 'premium' brand online, and I found decent brands for less). Also the Sheba tins at the supermarket weren't a balanced diet. I didn't want to be that picky about ingredients, but after eating food with cassia gum in it, the mom had diarrhea (bad enough to splatter onto the wall).

I've no idea where people buy KMR other than online, american supermarkets must be huge if you can buy so many things there! I only gave her lactose free milk because that's what I could find - looking for goat's milk would probably involve either hunting down some small organic food shop somewhere, or maybe a bus trip out of the city to find a bigger supermarket X)

The dry food is provided by the organisation, I had just run out of it for a while It's not so much a shelter as a 5 person group with a facebook page!
As for the litter boxes, they have some cut out shoe boxes for now. Not sure pans would help, the first time they used a shallow container, mom helped them 'bury' it and sent the contents flying everywhere instead. ( I know that theoretically they aren't supposed to start at 3 weeks, but they didn't follow guidelines and started pooping on the floor all on their own! But mom's taken over the job again for now, so I'm only leaving the boxes out just in case.)

They do grow up fast, in another couple days they might have doubled the weight they arrived at! It's really great to see, poop on the floor and walls aside

 

[foxden]

I had not realized just how many brands are different there.
KMR is available at Walmart or pet stores here. Some brands simply call this kitten milk replacement and don't use the KMR abbreviation if that's any help.
I honestly thought goats milk would be available in your supermarkets, as France (to me) "sounds" like a place you might find more exotic ingredients in regular stores....
My Kiki was an excellent mother. I never found "presents" on the wall or the floor as you've described, so I must have been really lucky.

I wonder if the food with cassia gum was too rich for mom. If you still have some you have not returned, you might try mixing a little in with some other wet food or giving her just a little with her typical dry food. A lot of pet stores will allow you to return foods your pets will not eat or if the food does not agree with the cats. You might get only store credit to buy other food -- but that can save some money when you are experimenting with different foods.

I brought Kiki and the kittens home with the intention to keep Kiki. She had been dropped off one night in a cardboard box with her 6 one-day-old kittens at the rescue where I was volunteering. As soon as she was in a cage there, she allowed me to handle her and the kittens so I could clean and she was not defensive at all. Love at first purr. I only had to convince my husband to let me bring the family home to foster. We had to figure out how to quarantine them from our other 2 cats, but everything went relatively well.
Good luck with your family. I hope you're able to find good food that agrees with mom's system. You could post a quick note in the Pregnant Cats and Kittens forum and ask specifically for brands commonly found in France. There are several experts there who live in Europe, so someone should be able to help you out.
The advisors in that forum have a large amount of experience, so reading through some of the threads (in your spare time) can teach you a lot. I wish I'd known about all those resources back then.
Take care
Carol

 

[Azalea]

Well, it's really easy to find goat's cheese (and wine and liver and pâté for humans), but I haven't had any luck with milk! I think the issue is that I live in a city, and like most students don't have a car. There's not much space, people rely on public transportation, and so you have to fit in everything in a fairly small area. Supermarkets are pretty small, unless you drive to the suburbs or go the edges of the city. I went to a Walmart (or Target?) in Guam once, and even that seemed huge to me!

I just have a question - by rich, do you mean the fat and protein content, or something else? Because I checked and it didn't seem that different from other brand.

I'll start a thread in the kitten & pregnant cat forum as soon as a volunteer from the rescue comes visit to check on her, because I'm starting to suspect that she's eating for more than 6... Her kittens are about 4 weeks old, she hasn't been out since they've been about 2 weeks, but... Her belly just keeps growing and growing, is round and pretty firm (but she's using the litter box regularly), she's eating more and more, but she's not putting on weight anywhere else (she's already been dewormed once, though that's another suspect)... So that's been another worry recently!
(Edit- so I ended up finding some goat's milk but all I found was skim/half fat ones... She's ok with it but didn't seem to prefer it to water, until I mixed in an egg yolk and then she licked the bowl clean... I'm not sure how much yolk to give her though, I'm afraid of giving too much of it, esp since she loves it)

 

[foxden]

I think you're doing great with this family. You've got things well under control.
I think egg yolk is a great thing for mom, but everything in moderation.

Mom's round stomach sounds unusual. I hope she isn't pregnant again. I hope it is worms and not anything more serious.

My Kiki was so skinny all the time her kittens were with us, even after the kittens were eating cat food.

The comment about the food being rich is tied to the fat content. I've seen comments from members who had to water down KMR because it was too rich for an underfed cat or kittens. I guess the types of protein could also be relevant, since animal protein might be more digestible than plant proteins.

The grocery store and city reminder is useful. I have never lived in a large city, and I had forgotten that your local stores would be small.