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Transferring Ownership - How Is This Done?

Discussion in 'Showing and Ethical Breeding' started by Dacatchair, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    I may be purchasing a TICA registered kitten from someone and I am realizing I have no clue how this is done and what I should expect to see showing the ownership has been transferred from them to me

    Is just a hand written signed note acknowledging the sale and terms of the sale and some sort of health guarantee, along with a signed receipt for the payment all there is to it? Or is there something more I should see?

    I am just realizing I don’t have a clue how this is done and I should!

    Also the info on the microchip would need to be updated...
     

  2. abyeb

    abyeb Charlie's Purrson Staff Member Forum Helper

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    So, if I’m understanding this right, you’re buying a TICA-registered cat from someone who isn’t the breeder? The first thing I would recommend doing in this case is to call the breeder. There might have been something in the contract the buyer signed outlining what to do in this situation.

    Most breeders have a contract that looks something like this: CONTRACT
    In this example, there is a clause that specifically says, “If for any reason you are unable to keep your kitten/cat: The cat will NOT be sold or given away without contacting the breeder for agreement”. Most breeders contracts are very similar.
     
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  3. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Thanks for showing me a sample of a contract abyeb.

    That gives me an idea of what sort of information to expect and it is helpful to know!

    The situation is a bit complicated and out of respect for the privacy of the seller I don’t want to get into the details which are a bit unusual... but I will ask if they have any contractual obligations to anyone that will be violated if they transfer ownership to me. Personaly there is a couple things in that contract I would never agree to and if I will be expected to sign an agreement with some of those perimeters, I will not be purchasing the kitten... But I would guess each contract addresses the important areas of agreement and those probably differ depending on circumstances.

    Hopefully it is all fine. I just want to know what is normal so if something isn’t I can ask about it!
     

  4. posiepurrs

    posiepurrs TCS Member Super Cat

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    There should be a transfer of registration to you included - not just a signed handwritten paper. Also I strongly suggest asking for a health guarantee in writing. What was said above about not selling of giving a cat away is pretty standard in contracts.
     
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  5. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Thanks for the information... So far everything looks all in order but I will make sure the kitten is healthy and everyone who should be involved is OK with the situation and that over the long term I will be able to honour what will be in the contract.
     

  6. StefanZ

    StefanZ Advisor Staff Member Advisor

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    I suppose the cat is ID- chipped. Change too in that registry.

    If there are breeding rights I suppose it shall be registered with the organisation here Tica.
     
    abyeb purraised this.

  7. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Thanks for the advice Stefanz!

    I purchased/ adopted the kitten a week ago. The transportation I had arranged partly fell apart mid trip. Then I was misinformed by a cranky bus driver and ended up having to walk for miles not being sure where I was going. I had no sleep the night before, so I was more than a little frazzled during the ownership transfer. Which was a bit confusing as almost none of what happened is what I was told to expect by people here. Apparently the breeders involved are sometimes comfortable operating on trust and gut feelings, and with people they trust they do not always do contracts, and I felt a bit guilty and overly suspicious for asking about paperwork as from everything I saw there was nothing to be suspicious about... (out of respect for peoples privacy I cannot explain why I am not suspicious. But I am reasonably sure everything is legit) Anyways... I received a hand written receipt for the money paid which also mentioned the kittens name and the breeder the kitten originally came from, plus a written health guarantee that the kitten has no congenital health problems and a promise to forward the health records and insurance information to me. I have a vet appointment coming up and the kittens health records which I believe were created when the kitten was still with the original breeder have been forwarded to my vet and the kittens health insurance that was set up by the original breeder has now been transferred to my name. From info in the pet insurance transferred to me and other information I was able to figure out the name of my kittens Dam and Sire. I have not yet received the TICA registration info, and am not sure whether at some point I will. Something was said about this being provided when the kittens breeding status is clarified. (I will explain in a minute) The kitten has no microchip as of yet and according to one of the local vets this is usually not done until they are ready to be spayed or neutered as it is as it is a big needle and it is better done under anesthetic. I am not sure if that is correct?

    But this leads to the next quandary...

    The breeder I got the kitten from told me they purchased him with breeding rights and due to something unexpected they were selling him as a pet at a considerable loss. Besides their own situation, I think they partly offered him to me out of kindness, and also because in personality he was close to a perfect match for what I was hoping to find. And maybe because at 5 months he is looking to be on the small side and the Queens he would need to breed are quite a bit larger. Not sure if that would be a problem or not but that may be part of the decision to let him go... I know for sure they do (or at least did) have breeding rights, and the kittens parents are TICA registered, but out of respect for peoples privacy I cannot explain how I know this. He is a really beautiful kitten and apart from maybe being on the small side I can see that he has fresh genetics that would probably help improve their lines.

    As the breeder expressed regret at needing to sell him, I offered to maybe try and leave him intact long enough to father a litter or 2 with their Queens. The only thing I would want out of this is the Happy Thought of having helped a respectable breeder to make kittens. A couple months ago I lost an 8 month old kitten to what was probably dry FIP and helping make some happy healthy kittens that would bring people joy would help make this right... (and I will do whatever I can to prevent him from fathering any kittens outside these breeding rights that are not mine)

    The decision on when it is best to neuter him is up to me and I have the right to do this any time I feel it is in the best interest of my cat, and the breeder expressed both appreciation that I might be willing to try to keep him intact long enough to breed, and doubts that this was likely to have a successful outcome. There was no pressure whatsoever.

    So I have been reading about how stud service is usually done and the more I read, the more unsure I am if it is even worth trying. The person with breeding rights lives a good 2-3 hours travel from me, and if we did this it seems we would be bringing my totally inexperienced virgin, barely sexually mature male for a quicky.... And unless a growth spurt happens soon the experienced Queens are likely to be 1/3 larger than he is or more...

    As I get attached to him I am realizing I would feel very worried for him leaving him there and worry he could get hurt in a fight being in other cats territory when they no longer remember him, or that he might manage to somehow escape in an unsafe unfamiliar area far from home with no microchip and raging hormones. It isn’t that I do not trust the breeder, but accidents happen, they did say if he came back for a prolonged visit all the cats would be upset to see him and there could be fights, and he is now my baby..

    And I am also worried about him accidentally getting out here, before we can set up a reproductive get together for him. I have put a heavy wire mesh and wood secondary door on the entryway to the back door, which is the only door I am currently using and the front door is a few days work away from being enclosed by a sturdy wire mesh and wood frame catio. My windows are all screwed shut... I plan to build a couple heavy duty window screens...I just need to hope the weather doesn't turn really hot before he is ready to do the deed! But I need to be in and out constantly, sometimes I have visitors, and some of them are stubbornly opposed to keeping a cat indoors, and over the next few months there is always a chance he could accidentally escape with raging hormones, and no microchip. Luckily there is no feral or intact cats in the area, so he may enjoy a relatively peaceful transition to sexual maturity, but leaving him intact until he has a chance to reproduce still seems like a bit of a risk, that could have serious repercussions, both to him and the spayed and neutered pet cats in my neighborhood if he gets out and is territorial.

    I really want to respect the privacy of the breeders involved and do not want to subject them to suspicions because they may have done things differently than the norm or because the incompleteness of the information I am providing here may give the impression they did not follow the important guidelines, when for the most part I am reasonably sure they do. It is easy to jump to the wrong conclusions based on information posted online that is largely incomplete... But I also want to do what is best for my kitten and would value the opinion of people with different experiences and no interest either way.

    I am going to ask my vets opinion, but I would also appreciate hearing the opinion or experience of people here.

    How likely or unlikely is a successful mating under these circumstances?

    I read that people usually bring their queens to the stud for a couple weeks rather than the other way around. Is there a reason for this?

    Is a kitten or young cat likely to be territorial or inclined to roam just before, or right when he reaches sexual maturity or do these behaviors take a while to develop?

    I also wonder if allowing him to sexually mature and neutering him right after he first mates, before he ever goes outside, even on a harness, will mean he maybe a bit more likely to be aggressive or territorial or want to roam, even after the hormones have a few months to leave his system?

    I love the idea of him fathering a litter or 2 of kittens, and would like to help out the person I got him from if possible, but first and foremost I want to do what is best for him in the long term...

    I have no interest in becoming a cat breeder myself, but respect the work of those who created such a beautiful well behaved kitten!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018

  8. Willowy

    Willowy TCS Member Top Cat

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    As I understand it, a male may not be able to "perform" in an unfamiliar setting. And it keeps the female from getting angry about him being in her territory (he'll be too distracted to get mad about her being in his territory).

    Honestly I couldn't recommend for a regular pet cat owner to keep a male intact long enough to father kittens. The chances are high that he'll start spraying and that doesn't always stop after neutering :/.
     
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  9. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Willowy, thank you for your response to some of my questions. Today I found some articles on cat breeding which said the same thing as you did, about the males ability to perform being more likely in his home turf. I began thinking maybe I could cover a room in plastic sheeting so it is easy to clean after any spraying. And maybe I could have one of the queens stay here until she became pregnant. But that would be a huge responsibility... And then I began thinking this is starting to sound like a crazy amount of work and although the risks are all small, taken together there is more risks than I am comfortable with. As there is no feral or unspayed females or intact males anywhere for miles the risk my cat will continue to spray after being neutered is probably reduced, but I am already noticing some strong willed and possibly aggressive aspects of his personality and I am guessing these will not be helped by allowing him to sexually mature. Compared to my last kitten who was neutered at 4 months, he plays really rough with stuffed toys and the idea of him maybe someday encountering a neighbours cat with that same behaviour is a bit scary. And getting a late start bonding with him, I do not want to have the role of thwarting any more of his desires than I absolutely have to for his own safety.

    Kittens of any kind are really scarce in my area, but the more I learn about making kittens, the more I am leaning towards not getting personally involved in trying to fix this, and just doing the easiest and safest thing which would be getting my kitten neutered when he is 6 months...
     
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  10. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    So... Things have slowly gotten sorted out and my kitten was neutered 10 days ago. This was done with agreement from the person with the breeding rights as he was starting to spray, smell like a Tom cat, yowl and pace restlessly. Poor kitten was going through full on puberty and had not even lost his baby canines! With his early and vigorous hormonal behaviour, waiting until he was old enough to have a good chance of being a father was not an option. And people here explaining how difficult setting up a date could be, also helped decide this...

    Now the hormones are gone he is once again a happy carefree kitten...

    The original breeder was kind enough to send me what I think is referred to as a blue slip with what I think may be the information I need to register him with the TICA. It is called a Breeders Slip at the very top, in bold, and it has a litter registration # and his parents names and numbers. So I set up an account with TICA online as it said to do in the instructions, and I think I have figured out to go to the litter registration part and the end of this has registration for individual kittens. But before I can get to the form I need, it says by clicking next I agree to abide by the TICA rules and bylaws. I don’t know what these are, cannot find a page explaining them, and as my kitten is just a forever pet and I won’t ever be breeding or selling him, I don’t see why I would have any reason to need to agree to their rules... but being able to know what I was being required to agree to, before clicking next to register my kitten, would help.

    And is there even any reason to register him? I won’t be taking him to any cat shows, and just appreciate his personality and beauty, and wanted a TICA registered kitten to avoid disrespectful breeders. Unless the paperwork might be important in some way I don’t yet understand, in itself, it is not something I care about.

    Sorry to be so clueless...
     
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  11. GoldyCat

    GoldyCat Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The links to the TICA bylaws and rules are found under Publications on their website. If you click on the link for Standing Rules you'll get a PDF file that includes the Bylaws and Show Rules.
     
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  12. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    That was a really helpful link Goldy Cat, and as far as I can tell none of that will ever apply to me, except maybe common sense decency like not using the TICA private info.

    I am happy to support most of their policies and goals, except for this part of their policies

    "102.2.4.3 Decrease the number of animals born each year, both planned and unplanned, by supporting spay/neuter awareness programs and by promoting spay/neuter of all non-purebred kittens and kittens sold as pets."

    While I understand in many areas there is an over abundance of ordinary cats and kittens, in my area spay and neuter programs have been so successful it is very difficult to find an ordinary non pure bred kitten, and at this point, it is my perception that ordinary cats are close to becoming an endangered species.

    And as long as there is people wanting to adopt them, I do not think purebred cats are better or more deserving of existing than moggies, and I suspect cats bred by fickle mother nature tend to be more robust with stronger immune systems. So I would only support that policy if it is aimed at eliminating surplus or unhealthy kittens of all types. I do not agree with policies that if they succeed would eliminate ordinary cats from the gene pool.

    A couple local examples... When my kitten was getting neutered the receptionist mentioned it was a shame he would not be fathering kittens, as he is a beautiful cat, but then she added the often repeated phrase "But there is already too many kittens." As I had been ready to adopt a kitten for a few years before I gave up looking locally, and began travelling to other communities to find one, I was curious where these unwanted kittens were, so I asked her if she knew of any kittens or even anyone local who had a cat that was not spayed and had kittens from time to time. She thought about it and said she knew of 1 woman who sometimes had kittens that she sold in the city. This is the vet office for a community of 12,000. So I pointed out there actually isn't too many kittens, and in this area it would be nice if more people let there cats have a litter. Another example, our local lumber supply store recently adopted a couple kittens to replace their previous customer friendly cat that did rodent patrol and passed away at a ripe old age. They had to send someone to a community 100 miles away just to adopt these kittens, as all the kittens available closer were only partially rehabilitated feral. And with this local success at eliminating ordinary kittens and all feral cats, our rat population has gone nuts. So, in this area, that part of the TICA policy is not something I support. But I would support a policy that allowed for ethical breeding of ordinary moggies, and maybe even a way to register them, if it could be proven the community had people wanting ordinary kittens and there was not enough available.

    And sorry if this is a bit of an off topic rant, but the lack of ordinary kittens in this area is something that has profoundly affected me, not entirely in bad ways, (I have ended up with a beautiful pure bred kitten that I love) but it is still a bit of a sore spot for me.

    But, it doesn't seem like the TICA would care if I agree with their policies, just they do not want me to do anything that is in violation of their rules. And I am not planning on rectifying the problems here by becoming a breeder of ordinary tabby cats. So if I just want to register my kitten, I guess I can agree to abide by their rules even if I do not agree with all their policies.

    But I do not have any interest in a paid membership. Am I right in thinking I do not need this to register my kitten? Which also brings me back to my question about why it might be important to register him?

    And I am also confused about what they want when they ask for his name. Is it OK if this is just the name I call him - for example Toby- or do they expect the TICA cattery name of his breeder to be a part of the name I give him?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  13. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    And besides wondering why I might want to register him with the TICA, I am wondering if I can do that any time in his life if his litter was registered, or if after a certain time limit a cat from a registered litter can no longer be individually registered even if both their parents are...?
     

  14. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    I found a thread here discussing how a registered name is supposed to be structured, with the registered cattery being the first word... and then I found something on the TICA website that seemed to say the same thing. So I think I have managed to figure that out...

    And looking through the TICA website I see where people can purchase a 5 generation pedigree... Having a paper saying my kitten is registered with the TICA doesn't matter much to me (maybe I am just ignorant of why it should?) but the pedigree caught my interest! I love genealogy as a hobby and that is something I would really enjoy seeing! It would also be really helpful to know if my kitten needs to be registered for me to purchase this or is having his parents registration numbers enough for me to purchase both of theirs?
     

  15. posiepurrs

    posiepurrs TCS Member Super Cat

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    I am not 100% certain with TICA, but in CFA a cat can be registered any time - just costs a little more later. I don't think you can get a pedigree on your kitten without him being registered. They would need a registration number for him to print it up - otherwise you would have to get a pedigree for each parent. Line chasing (what they call it in cats) is fun! I traced one branch of my studs pedigree back to the late 1800s.
     
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  16. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Thanks for attempting to answer some of my questions Posiepurrs! It is appreciated! And being able to trace one of your cats ancestors back to the 1800’s is totally amazing especially as cats have a lot more generations in 100 years than humans! As my kitten is a late generation SBT Savannah I know he has a tiny bit of Serval back there, and probably along several lines, but I would also be really interested to know what that was crossed with as the Savannah breed usually is a combination of the Serval and things like Egyptian Mau, Abyssian, Maine Coon, Siamese, Oriental and who knows what! one thing I am pretty sure of though, and that is that none of his ancestors have had to cope with much, besides being a beloved pet for many many generations and he expects the world to be made of cushions and chicken flavoured marshmallows. He is totally charming and I am doing my best to accommodate this, and making sure there is no sharp pointy things in his world. But a couple years ago I started off looking for a kitten that would grow into an ordinary affectionate farm and house cat, and through a series of events, that sort of morphed into something else entirely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018

  17. epona

    epona TCS Member Top Cat

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    One of my boys came from a breeder at a later age, she wanted a litter from him with one of her queens to continue the line - he stayed with her until the queen was pregnant, then the breeder neutered him and homed him with me (we were friends, I'd had a kitten from her before, so he wasn't going to a complete stranger) - he was about a year old and it was a good situation for everyone involved, he's a lovely cat (but did spray when he was getting settled in! Thankfully it was just new home nerves, rather than a long-term habit)

    I'd have been reluctant to take him if he'd have been staying intact tbh, the arrangement we had where she kept him until he had sired the litter she wanted then had him neutered was a better arrangement imo.
     
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  18. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    I am glad you all found a way to make that work Epona.

    Personally I really wanted to start out with a kitten as I have never had the same degree of bond with a cat that showed up at my door at an older age or was left here, which is mostly what I have had.

    I ended up just filling out the TICA registration form as best I could and sending it to TICA asking if there is more I neeed to do on my end, and to please let me know if I made a mistake filling it out. I read on another forum that someone registered a cat that was 6 years old, that had registered parents, so I guess there is not a time limit if the owner has the proper form.

    Also I am sorry if it initially seemed like I was not listening to the advice I was given... I was, and really appreciated it, just I needed to weigh it with other information, my personal values, and come to my own decision about what is best.
     
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  19. Dacatchair

    Dacatchair Thread Starter TCS Member Adult Cat

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    Alejandra Rico purraised this.

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