Tips on discouraging unwanted behaviors?

[Cyantaiga]

Cats will purr to soothe themselves when stressed or in pain. Sounds like that’s what your cat is doing at the vet’s. Better than clawing and biting!

Dry cat food, even dry prescription food, blocks water absorption in a cat’s digestive system. Wetting dry food won’t change that.

Cats cannot be punished. They do not connect the punishment to the act. All they know is, “Why are you being such a jerk! I thought I could trust you!”

What they do respond to is, “I get a bigger reward for clawing my scratching posts than that over stuffed couch.”

Free feeding is convenient for you, but you’re giving away a great tool of positive reinforcement and bond building. Cats respond much more positively to their humans when they’re on a feeding schedule. It’s more work, but it sends a clear message that you are the Keeper of the Tinned Mice and the Source of All Things Good.

You do have a strong bond with your kitty, but replacing free feeding with scheduled meals will strengthen that bond and is inline with a cat’s nature. Play with your cat at least once a day right before feeding for an even bigger bonus. It feeds into a cat’s natural rhythm of hunt, catch, kill, eat. Your cat will feel like they earned their meal and boost their confidence. This will increase the value of whatever rewards and alternatives that comes from you, Keeper of Tinned Mice, whether it’s petting, cuddling, lap time, treats, alternative items to chew, etc.

1) He purrs all the time, and has been that way since we adopted him. In his case, I don't think it's a stress response, because I have seen him stressed - he makes a very specific yowl to indicate it. As far as I can tell, the vet's office doesn't stress him out much, if at all - he readily leaves his carrier and almost immediately explores the room, calmly jumping up onto and down from counters, and he happily greets the vet with his little "hello" chirps and starts rubbing his face on them. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the opposite of a stressed cat, right?

2) He was eating dry food for like 9 years before the sediment issue developed, and since switching to the prescription food 3~4 years ago, he's been perfectly healthy. I don't know where you're getting your information, but feel free to go argue with Hill's if you're sure you're right. But even if you are right, Millie hates wet food and won't eat it because the only time he's had wet food was when he was about 4 because he had a problem with his liver and had to be force-fed wet food, which was not fun for anybody. As far as I can tell, he won't even eat dry kibble that's been sprinkled with water.

3) I'm aware of the futility of punishment, believe me. Millie is the embodiment of "no such thing as bad attention," which is why we're having these issues in the first place, and why I'm seeking advice on how to redirect the behaviors that are likely to be harmful to him. It's one thing to reward a cat for scratching his post instead of the couch, but how do you translate that to a behavior that has no better alternative? How can I reward him for not licking the tub when he already gets attention when he's not in the tub?

4) Free feeding is more than just "convenient" for us - it's less stressful for the cat, as well. Millie was a stray for the first year of his life, so when we first adopted him, he had some pretty severe food anxiety. We initially split his food into two meals, but he would scarf all of it down and often make himself sick, so we then split it into four meals. The longer he lived with us and could trust that nobody else was going to steal his food, the more this behavior let up, and we eventually could go back down to two meals. However, we found that if he could see the bottom of his food bowl, he'd become distressed until we either refilled it or simply shook the bowl to get the remaining kibbles to settle evenly on the bottom. When we had to switch him to the prescription food, we found that he had no desire to scarf the food down - he'd simply eat a bit here and there. So we got a bigger bowl that we could fill up so it would take him longer to see the bottom and become distressed. Eventually, I picked up a gravity feeder, so not only is the bowl constantly filled, but he can even see that he has plenty of food. It's reassuring to him, which is the best result. The fact that it means we also don't have to stress over whether or not somebody fed him is secondary. Plus, if science says it's healthier for humans to eat smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day, then it's probably the healthier option for a lot of animals, especially if their only available food is dehydrating, right? And lastly, as I've mentioned, he is far more motivated by socialization than by food at this point. He will simply not eat if it means eating alone, so I have zero desire to restrict his food availability for any reason. I am hoping to eventually find a treat that is both safe for his condition and tolerable to his digestion, but until then, his favored rewards are chin scritches and brush time.

5) The cat already understands that "going" means that one or both of us will be leaving the house soon, and he gets extremely clingy at the idea. His separation anxiety is bad enough that when we have to shut him out of our room to sleep, he spends quite a bit of time yowling and scratching at our door. I don't think we need to strengthen any bond here, unless you can tell me how to convince him that we'll always come back, because after 13 years of always coming back, he still doesn't seem to get it.

Look, that whole "assert yourself as the boss" schtick may work for some people, but to me, it's just smells a bit too much like Cesar Millan, and I don't vibe with that. I'm not going to restrict a family member's basic needs just because he's kind of a gremlin sometimes, and I'm especially not going to suddenly change things up on a 14-year-old cat that started out with some possible mild cognitive impairments.

 

[Cyantaiga]

With these smart cats, it's often not an issue of "can't" understand but "won't".

Oh, absolutely! I just don't know why he'd want to continue engaging in behaviors that he knows result in less attention...

Bladder issues often have anxiety as a contributing factor, it could be worth asking the vet if he could have catnip or an anxiety medication to see if that helps. If the cat music doesn't for you.

As far as anyone can tell, the issue was purely physical - ever since he's been on the prescription food, he hasn't had any bathroom issues at all, and the vomiting episodes seem to be directly related to him eating or drinking something he shouldn't have (except for once, where it was most likely stress-related, but that was because we had 7 people over and one was an excitable 3-year-old). OTOH, I should probably look into trying to calm his separation anxiety while we're asleep - he doesn't throw up, but he does incessantly claw at the bottom of the door, and that's not exactly ideal...

 

[Furballsmom]

almost immediately explores the room, calmly jumping up onto and down from counters, and he happily greets the vet with his little "hello" chirps and starts rubbing his face on them.

geez, I love this cat.

However, we found that if he could see the bottom of his food bowl, he'd become distressed until we either refilled it or simply shook the bowl to get the remaining kibbles to settle evenly on the bottom.

You-all are way ahead of most people regarding being in tune to him to know this.

I just don't know why he'd want to continue engaging in behaviors that he knows result in less attention...

That's the main reason I was thinking that the tub is very challenging, especially since he's smart and caught on to tone of voice and hops out (although theoretically he's already half-way there trained on this one), so making it unappealing or even unreachable with something that covers it might be the best solve. Coming up with a workable cover could be tough, because I think you said he's licked the sides?

What if you offered a lickimat? To put on the mat, can he have beechnut babyfood? A little egg yolk now and then? Plain unflavored yogurt? Churu or other type of lickable treat?

Have you talked to the vet about pica?

look into trying to calm his separation anxiety while we're asleep -

Would a purr toy or heartbeat toy where he usually naps along with a selfwarming bed, or even very low volume cat music help?

 

[FeebysOwner]

I failed to mention anything about the bathtub in my previous post - but, in case it has something to do with the cleaners you use that might be attractive to him, you could use more natural, 'less appealing' cleaners - like vinegar and baking soda.

In so far as him having some level of cognitive impairment, or dementia, as I suggested - mobility and agility are not always factors in either. There are perfectly physically healthy people who experience mental decline. But sometimes idiosyncrasies in their personalities/behavior become exaggerated. I presumed that given he has had all these 'idiosyncrasies' for most of his life, and that you were more recently trying to find ways to correct them, that perhaps they had become more exaggerated now. If that is not the case, what caused the greater level of interest in discouraging his long-term behaviors?

The one other thing I didn't see mentioned above (sorry if I missed it somehow) was if there have been any 'more recent' lifestyle changes in your home that could be contributors to his behavior. For example, have you always kept him out of your bedroom, or is that a more recent event? And changes in routines that we humans tend to take for granted, but that cats can be less adaptive to?

Speaking of that, does he have any interest in a cat bed or something of that nature? Is it possible to work with him to 'go to bed' when you do so that he doesn't have to be locked out of the bedroom? Maybe with a ticking clock or heartbeat toy as mentioned above? Trying a few different approaches can't be any more disruptive to your sleep than having him claw at the door and/or howl. If he is experiencing a degree of separation anxiety from this, rectifying it could be helpful to his overall demeanor. I am sure someone in a previous post has also mentioned CBD oil - perhaps it could be used at night to help settle him.

 

[Alldara]

Oh, absolutely! I just don't know why he'd want to continue engaging in behaviors that he knows result in less attention...

Your guess is as good as mine. Magnus goes on and jumps on the printer and gets "banned" from the office for a few hours. I suppose it's worth the 2 second of attention while we carry him to the door?

We sleep with our cats so I can't answer about the separation anxiety for that. But I agree with Furballsmom that the heartbeat and heat toy might work.

If he was younger I would echo the suggestion to get another cat to keep him company. I gave in on that suggestion and it helped, but did not fix.

Have you tried food enrichment for him? Magnus likes puzzle feeders, though not treat balls. He also likes "hunting" for his dry food. He never eats more than a tablespoon at a time so that's all I put out but it does occupy him a bit.

Have you tried any trick training? Magnus does a couple but Calcifer is the one that really enjoys training. Mental enrichment works to impact them calming down too sometimes.

 

[treeclimber]

One possible solution to the bathtub thing is keeping the bathroom door closed.

It may seem weird at first because humans are used to “door closed = bathroom occupied” but once you get used to looking for light from the crack under the door or knocking instead it becomes so automatic you don’t even think about it.

Sometimes if a cat really wants to do something, the only way to stop the behavior is to make it impossible to do.

 

[Furballsmom]

One possible solution to the bathtub thing is keeping the bathroom door closed.

I think the OP doesn't want to do this due to less than optimal air flow.

Sometimes if a cat really wants to do something, the only way to stop the behavior is to make it impossible to do.

You got me thinking, --what about a tall baby gate to block the bathroom door or something like that?

 

[Cyantaiga]

geez, I love this cat.

Lol EVERYONE loves this cat xD every time someone new meets him, they always wanna steal him

Have you talked to the vet about pica?

We haven't, but only because we've done our own research into it, and as far as we've found, there's not a whole lot to be done about it other than keeping dangerous things out of his reach, which we're normally pretty good at, and he doesn't tend to go after fabrics or major wires. We do often mention that he goes after paper, and we did talk about his chewing habits when he knocked one of his big teeth out, but so far nobody seems too concerned about it.

Would a purr toy or heartbeat toy where he usually naps along with a selfwarming bed, or even very low volume cat music help?

Not sure about the purr/heartbeat toys - he doesn't seem to like toys that make electronic noises (the only exception being his auto-laser, but I think that's just because the machine noises are separate from the "red bug" itself), but there are a few things I can try out.

I failed to mention anything about the bathtub in my previous post - but, in case it has something to do with the cleaners you use that might be attractive to him, you could use more natural, 'less appealing' cleaners - like vinegar and baking soda.

Yeah, that's worth a shot, I suppose, though he doesn't really react to things the way most cats react - he's gone after things like green apples, mandarin oranges, and tomato sauce before. He's gotten a bit pickier in his old age, but knowing him, vinegar would just make it more appealing...

I presumed that given he has had all these 'idiosyncrasies' for most of his life, and that you were more recently trying to find ways to correct them, that perhaps they had become more exaggerated now. If that is not the case, what caused the greater level of interest in discouraging his long-term behaviors?

The one other thing I didn't see mentioned above (sorry if I missed it somehow) was if there have been any 'more recent' lifestyle changes in your home that could be contributors to his behavior. For example, have you always kept him out of your bedroom, or is that a more recent event? And changes in routines that we humans tend to take for granted, but that cats can be less adaptive to?

I didn't really explain that part, did I? A little over a year ago, we moved from a rented apartment to our own condo. His behaviors are the same in frequency, as far as we can tell, but we have a new environment and a new setup that we've all been getting used to. We've been dealing with more pressing matters since we moved, and it's only just recently that we're able to focus on finding new/better ways to keep the cat from causing problems. As far as shutting him out of our room when we sleep, that's not a new thing, but it also hasn't been a 100% consistent thing, either. We've moved around a lot since we've had him, and in several of those places, we weren't able to separate him from us while we slept. In the apartment we just moved from, we were able to technically shut him out of our room, but the place was so poorly ventilated that shutting our door in the summer turned our bedroom into a sauna. That said, his distress at being shut out is not a new thing, and given that he will specifically jump on us and yowl in our faces when we're trying to sleep makes me think that he simply doesn't like it when he's the only one awake.

Speaking of that, does he have any interest in a cat bed or something of that nature? Is it possible to work with him to 'go to bed' when you do so that he doesn't have to be locked out of the bedroom? Maybe with a ticking clock or heartbeat toy as mentioned above? Trying a few different approaches can't be any more disruptive to your sleep than having him claw at the door and/or howl. If he is experiencing a degree of separation anxiety from this, rectifying it could be helpful to his overall demeanor. I am sure someone in a previous post has also mentioned CBD oil - perhaps it could be used at night to help settle him.

I am gonna try a few different things to see if there's something that will help him chill, yeah. I'm wary of introducing anything ingestible, simply because I don't want to deal with the potential aftermath of an upset tummy... But there are other things we can do. We have tried what we call the "kitty wake up game," which is where we try to get him to stay awake more during the day so that he's tired by nightfall and goes to sleep when we do. It only sometimes worked. That said, we do shut him out at a fairly regular time, and he recognizes our "going to bed soon" processes, to the point that often, all we really need to do is nudge him from wherever he's sitting and he'll leave on his own (albeit with sad eyes and sadder meows). Once the door's closed, he'll be quiet for maybe 5~10 minutes before he starts yowling and clawing. I think the fact that he can still hear us moving around upsets him.

If he was younger I would echo the suggestion to get another cat to keep him company. I gave in on that suggestion and it helped, but did not fix.

We are actually interested in getting a second cat, largely just because we want another kitty, but also so that Millie will have a playmate, especially when we're not available as sources of attention.

Have you tried food enrichment for him? Magnus likes puzzle feeders, though not treat balls. He also likes "hunting" for his dry food. He never eats more than a tablespoon at a time so that's all I put out but it does occupy him a bit.

I have been looking into puzzle feeders, yeah. I'm wary of using them as his main food source, though, because if he doesn't think it's worth the effort, he may just not eat. So I'm focusing on trying to find a safe, tolerable treat before finding toys to put those treats into.

Have you tried any trick training? Magnus does a couple but Calcifer is the one that really enjoys training. Mental enrichment works to impact them calming down too sometimes.

Not specifically, no. We've gotten him to understand some functional "tricks," I suppose? For instance, he really REALLY loves jumping up onto people's shoulders, and if he wants to be picked up, he will just jump and force you to catch him, which is not something everybody enjoys all the time, so we've gotten him to understand that a "stop" hand means he needs to wait, and he'll usually sit and wait (and sulk) for at least a little bit before he starts trying again. He can also understand gestures like "come up" and "get down," and can follow a point about half the time. But other than that, no. I did briefly try to get him to learn "roll over," but he seemed rather offended by the attempts...

One possible solution to the bathtub thing is keeping the bathroom door closed.

As I mentioned, we'd rather not do that because it gets muggy and smells funny if the door's closed for even an hour (and that's not even after somebody's taken a shower). I mean, sure, we could just leave the vent fan running 24/7, but our utility bills are already bad enough as it is.

 

[Cyantaiga]

You got me thinking, --what about a tall baby gate to block the bathroom door or something like that?

This cat has legit scaled a 10-foot wall just because he could. Granted, he was like two at the time and had maybe a 3-foot assist from a couch, but even recently, he's jumped cleanly from the ground onto my shoulder - and I'm 5'7". I have faith in his ability to scale even a 6-foot gate, especially if there's any way for him to grab onto it. I suppose we could look into putting in a screen door, but he's been hell on screens in the past (including full-on scaling them), and anything sturdier would likely just seem like a new climbing wall to him, which may pose a greater risk to him than just...letting him lick the tub.

 

[Cyantaiga]

In so far as him having some level of cognitive impairment, or dementia, as I suggested - mobility and agility are not always factors in either.

Oh, since I mentioned elsewhere that he may have started out life with some possible cognitive impairment, I should explain: since we’ve had him, he’s displayed some possible but very mild traits of “wobbly cat syndrome” (he’s fallen out of windows and isn’t exactly the most graceful cat, but most of his major/common motor functions are fine). I don’t think CH is technically classified as a cognitive disorder, but problems in the cerebellum can affect cognitive function, so it’s possible that he’s already starting from behind, so to speak. And I’m not speculating this based on nothing, either - the boy sometimes has difficulties localizing sounds, and he often forgets where we are…even when we lived in a small 2-bedroom apartment and he just walked out of the room we were in… (a call of “kitty, we’re in here!” is responded to with jingling collar and a happy chirp upon seeing us again). So, a lot of the signs listed for feline dementia are things that he’s always had a low grade form of, which is why I’m not really going to worry about it until it becomes apparent that he’s getting worse.

 

[Furballsmom]

a call of “kitty, we’re in here!” is responded to with jingling collar and a happy chirp upon seeing us again)

Oh my word, what an absolutely darling cat.

 

[Cyantaiga]

since y’all’ve been really helpful, I present an offering of pics of the gremlin in question:

 

[Furballsmom]

oh, baby boy you darlin' little man!!

And thank you for saying we've helped, I wasn't sure we were.

 

[Cyantaiga]

oh, baby boy you darlin' little man!!

And thank you for saying we've helped, I wasn't sure we were.

Yeah! I know I can sound a little combative/argumentative, but a lot of the suggestions everyone’s made has given me more avenues to explore (and even if some suggestions aren’t helpful for me, personally, they could still be helpful for somebody else with similar problems, so I consider that a win).

 

[Cat McCannon]

I guess I should have preceded my post witht e standard issue Catsite disclaimers-
-Every cat is a law unto itself.

1) He purrs all the time, and has been that way since we adopted him. In his case, I don't think it's a stress response, because I have seen him stressed - he makes a very specific yowl to indicate it. As far as I can tell, the vet's office doesn't stress him out much, if at all - he readily leaves his carrier and almost immediately explores the room, calmly jumping up onto and down from counters, and he happily greets the vet with his little "hello" chirps and starts rubbing his face on them. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the opposite of a stressed cat, right?

Very much so.

I've never heard of a cat that constantly purrs! I think that's pretty cool. Cat experts say cats don't control when they purr.

2) He was eating dry food for like 9 years before the sediment issue developed, and since switching to the prescription food 3~4 years ago, he's been perfectly healthy. I don't know where you're getting your information, but feel free to go argue with Hill's if you're sure you're right. But even if you are right, Millie hates wet food and won't eat it because the only time he's had wet food was when he was about 4 because he had a problem with his liver and had to be force-fed wet food, which was not fun for anybody. As far as I can tell, he won't even eat dry kibble that's been sprinkled with water.

Carbs are used to form the powdered protein meal into kibble. Cats get no nutritional value from carbs and I believe carbs are what blocks the digestive tract from absorbing water. This information is available online. There are links on this forum that lead to some in depth articles about dry, wet and raw food for cats. Dry food had been linked to several medical problems in cats, such as diabetes and urinary tract blockages.

I don't have to argue with Hills. I just don't buy it for my cat, Belle.

Another disclaimer-
-Feeding your cat what it will eat is better than him starving

3) I'm aware of the futility of punishment, believe me. Millie is the embodiment of "no such thing as bad attention," which is why we're having these issues in the first place, and why I'm seeking advice on how to redirect the behaviors that are likely to be harmful to him. It's one thing to reward a cat for scratching his post instead of the couch, but how do you translate that to a behavior that has no better alternative? How can I reward him for not licking the tub when he already gets attention when he's not in the tub?

I don't know how to get him to stop licking the tub because I don't know what he's getting out of it. Maybe coat the tub with something yucky, like citrus. Cats (generally. Your cat might be the goofball that loves citrus- see first disclaimer) don't like the taste or smell of citrus. However, that might not be a practical solution. I also don't know what to suggest as an alternative.

However, it's your cat. Do your detective work. Collect the clues and see if you can figure it out.

4) Free feeding is more than just "convenient" for us - it's less stressful for the cat, as well. Millie was a stray for the first year of his life, so when we first adopted him, he had some pretty severe food anxiety. We initially split his food into two meals, but he would scarf all of it down and often make himself sick, so we then split it into four meals. The longer he lived with us and could trust that nobody else was going to steal his food, the more this behavior let up, and we eventually could go back down to two meals. However, we found that if he could see the bottom of his food bowl, he'd become distressed until we either refilled it or simply shook the bowl to get the remaining kibbles to settle evenly on the bottom. When we had to switch him to the prescription food, we found that he had no desire to scarf the food down - he'd simply eat a bit here and there. So we got a bigger bowl that we could fill up so it would take him longer to see the bottom and become distressed. Eventually, I picked up a gravity feeder, so not only is the bowl constantly filled, but he can even see that he has plenty of food. It's reassuring to him, which is the best result. The fact that it means we also don't have to stress over whether or not somebody fed him is secondary. Plus, if science says it's healthier for humans to eat smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day, then it's probably the healthier option for a lot of animals, especially if their only available food is dehydrating, right? And lastly, as I've mentioned, he is far more motivated by socialization than by food at this point. He will simply not eat if it means eating alone, so I have zero desire to restrict his food availability for any reason. I am hoping to eventually find a treat that is both safe for his condition and tolerable to his digestion, but until then, his favored rewards are chin scritches and brush time.

Dry food causes sugar spikes. A lot of spikes, followed by the inevitable crash, isn't good. However, as I said above, feeding your cat what he'll eat is better than him starving.

5) The cat already understands that "going" means that one or both of us will be leaving the house soon, and he gets extremely clingy at the idea. His separation anxiety is bad enough that when we have to shut him out of our room to sleep, he spends quite a bit of time yowling and scratching at our door. I don't think we need to strengthen any bond here, unless you can tell me how to convince him that we'll always come back, because after 13 years of always coming back, he still doesn't seem to get it.

There are things you can try to reduce separation anxiety. Jackson Galaxy has good advice on the subject. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't. See first disclaimer. But it's worth a try.

Look, that whole "assert yourself as the boss" schtick may work for some people, but to me, it's just smells a bit too much like Cesar Millan, and I don't vibe with that. I'm not going to restrict a family member's basic needs just because he's kind of a gremlin sometimes, and I'm especially not going to suddenly change things up on a 14-year-old cat that started out with some possible mild cognitive impairments.

Pump the brakes! No one is suggesting you "assert yourself as the boss". I don't know who Cesar Millan is, but if he's suggesting you assert yourself as the boss of your cat, he knows nothing about cats!

Being the Keeper of Tinned Mice isn't about being the boss. It's about building trust. The more a cat trusts you (and the more you trust your cat) the more he'll will cooperate with you.

Your cat is a handsome fellow, by the way. You both are lucky to have each other.

 

[Alldara]

Yeah! I know I can sound a little combative/argumentative, but a lot of the suggestions everyone’s made has given me more avenues to explore (and even if some suggestions aren’t helpful for me, personally, they could still be helpful for somebody else with similar problems, so I consider that a win).

When someone makes their original post, it can never contain all the information we need. So there's always a bit of back-and-forth: this works for our home, this doesn't..oh yeah we've tried that to no avail...kind of conversation.

We get a win if we hear "this worked for a few minutes", because we can then describe similar things.

Oh. Come to think of it. I have a wild coloured oven mitt which I use to wrestle with Magnus. If he's getting into, "im going to jump on everything" mode some harassment with a toy or the oven mitt works mostly.

 

[Cat McCannon]

Yeah! I know I can sound a little combative/argumentative...

You're just standing up for your cat