Time for a behaviorist to help with our feral cats?

[JimmyL]

Thanks in advance for any advice

I have written before about our cat situation and always received helpful advice.

To recap: my wife and I, both from the UK, are currently living in a flat on a sixth-floor apartment block in Belgrade, Serbia. The flat backs on to a quiet, cat-friendly courtyard shared by other tenement blocks too.

Six years ago we found a blind feral kitten, almost on death’s door. We adopted her and nurtured her back to health. Her name is Fleaso: she stays inside.

Eight months ago we adopted another cat: a youngster we call Bob. He is 18 months old, and for a feral cat is very friendly, loveable. But he is very energetic and likes to play. He comes up to the flat (I have to use the lift to take him up and down to the courtyard). He comes at various times in the day and stays overnight, but gets restless about 4am. Sometimes we try and ignore him, and wait ‘til 7am. But often I ‘crack’ and take him down.

The cats have had eight months to get used to each other. We keep them in separate rooms a lot of the time with the door closed. I have also made a frame with string netting to separate the cats between rooms.

We have tried to integrate them: we usually put Fleaso on a cat tower. Bob normally ignores her but sometimes tries to jump up. She just hisses and he backs off. So they don’t attack each other; they’ve ‘bopped’ each other, but don’t use claws. But he sulks because she won’t play with him, and she spends most of her time nervously crawling about, not sure if he’s around. We’ve been in this situation for the last four months; nothing has changed at all.

Both cats have been sterilised. We occasionally plug in the Feiway hormone stress reducer, but it doesn’t seem to make much difference.

In 2/3 months’ time we will be moving back to the UK. (I will need your advice on traveling with cats, when this happens!) We intend to rent a house with a garden and cat flap, where Bob can come and go as he pleases. Fleaso will remain indoors (obviously we still have to find a place that meets these requirements, so this arrangement can’t be guaranteed)

We were wondering if it’s time to force the issue...not try and separate them at all. We feel it would be a shame if Fleaso never gets to think Bob is not some kind of threat. Maybe keeping them apart is the problem(?) Or maybe it’s time to work with some kind of cat behaviourist, to try and make a breakthrough.

Any thoughts/advice would be most grateful.

Thanks

James

 

[maggie101]

My cats act just like that. They tolerate each other. One wants to play,other doesn't so she jumps high then the other cat leaves her alone.

 

[ArtNJ]

Time together is the big driver of progress, in general and I think this is specifically true with certain kinds of tensions that introduction processes don't really address that well. It is my belief that the introduction mainly goes to reducing routine stranger danger. Meaning that other sorts of issues don't necessarily benefit, or at least not as much. So, for example, an introduction doesn't necessarily help a senior cat tolerate being jumped on, or reduce a blind cat's anxiety about not knowing where another cat is.

I'd put a bell on Bob so Fleaso knows where he is at, and see what they can do on their own. Maybe there are some things you can do to help things along, but its tricky to to try and micromanage these things. Sometimes folks think they can micro is so there are only positive experiences, but in practice, its really hard to do that. For example, once Fleaso hears the bell, he probably won't take a treat, because stressed cats usually dont. So I think its mainly about time.

Besides, as noted above by maggie101 , this doesn't sound too bad, some cats just have this kind of relationship, no really bad behavior or severe stress. So lets see what they can do!

 

[maggie101]

Putting a bell on is a great idea and get them both micro chipped. Hopefully Bob won't bring in a scent from outside that Fleasco doesn't like

 

[JimmyL]

My cats act just like that. They tolerate each other. One wants to play,other doesn't so she jumps high then the other cat leaves her alone.

But do you think, with a cat behaviorist, they could learn to get beyond 'tolerance'?

 

[JimmyL]

Time together is the big driver of progress, in general and I think this is specifically true with certain kinds of tensions that introduction processes don't really address that well. It is my belief that the introduction mainly goes to reducing routine stranger danger. Meaning that other sorts of issues don't necessarily benefit, or at least not as much. So, for example, an introduction doesn't necessarily help a senior cat tolerate being jumped on, or reduce a blind cat's anxiety about not knowing where another cat is.

I'd put a bell on Bob so Fleaso knows where he is at, and see what they can do on their own. Maybe there are some things you can do to help things along, but its tricky to to try and micromanage these things. Sometimes folks think they can micro is so there are only positive experiences, but in practice, its really hard to do that. For example, once Fleaso hears the bell, he probably won't take a treat, because stressed cats usually dont. So I think its mainly about time.

Besides, as noted above by maggie101 , this doesn't sound too bad, some cats just have this kind of relationship, no really bad behavior or severe stress. So lets see what they can do!

Indeed - the blindness is obviously the big issue for Fleaso. She's always been nervous but a lot more so since Bob arrived. It's sad to see sometimes; the flat is not her own anymore so she is hyper-vigilant. Also sad to see Bob upset because all he wants to do is play with her. BUT....she does sense when he is about and they have got used to each others scent. Also, there are no visible/physical signs of stress on her part. She snarls at Bob, and will run off if he catches her on the ground. But a minute later she is back to normal.

There was a funny incident the other day. They were both on the ground and Fleaso did not realise Bob was there. They touched noses and sniffed for a bit. Two seconds later Fleaso hissed, but in that one moment, she seemed to have forgotten to be defensive!

I keep the door closed between them and then carry her to the cat tower so that they are sometimes in the same room. Fleaso sleeps on our bed at night, and Bob is in the lounge on his own, with the door closed.

This arrangement means my wife and I have to be vigilant. But I'm wondering if now is the time to stop being so vigilant. Keep all doors open and let them roam around. The reason we don't is that we would worry that Fleaso would have no area where she left protected and not vulnerable.

Could a cat behaviorist help us out? Thanks

 

[maggie101]

But do you think, with a cat behaviorist, they could learn to get beyond 'tolerance'?

Oskar the blind cat has many videos,popular
Cats hearing is far superior to dogs so she will still be able to catch a bug. She will learn on her own how to get to places. I suggest keeping the other cat inside so they can get acquainted. At 6 months cats are like teenagers,at a year or less thier personalities will show and will be hard to change. Try that out. If you have trouble get a behaviorist

 

[maggie101]

 

[ArtNJ]

Oskar the blind cat has many videos,popular
Cats hearing is far superior to dogs so she will still be able to catch a bug. She will learn on her own how to get to places. I suggest keeping the other cat inside so they can get acquainted. At 6 months cats are like teenagers,at a year or less thier personalities will show and will be hard to change. Try that out. If you have trouble get a behaviorist

Keeping the cat inside isnt a bad idea, as you'll have to do that anyway for a period of time after the move. You can't just let an indoor/outdoor cat outside right away, there needs to be a transition.

 

[JimmyL]

Amazing and inspiring! Thanks

 

[JimmyL]

Thanks to you both A ArtNJ and maggie101 !

You're correct that it's the combination of the situation now, and impending changes, that is influencing our decision.

In 2/3 months' time I will be traveling overland with Fleaso and Bob, by car, to get from Serbia to the UK; three days in a car, two nights in cat-friendly Air BnBs. They will be in two separate large cat carriers, but sharing the bedroom space with each other and me!

In advance of the trip, we will do some practice runs in a car..might even carry them around crowded areas so they get used to the external noise. Our Vet has also advised them to mix a mild sedative with their food for when we undertake the big journey.

With this in mind my wife and I have considered the following options:

1) Carry on as we currently are. The advantage is the cats are used to it, but going and fetching Bob from the outside, and taking him back and forth, is a bit of a pain. It also means we have to be always vigilant when they're near each other. Bob will stay overnight, but my wife wants to train him - or me rather! - not to respond to his 4am meows, but to wait until 6am before I take him out. We have used a bell on him before in the house - even then he is too fast for Fleaso, but we could try again. I use the Fenway, but we could also try catnip (BTW - he has cat houses outside that I have made, and he is very happy running around in the courtyard which is very safe)

A couple of days before we travel we will keep him inside.

2) Only difference to number (1) is we are not vigilant at all and don't separate them at all. The advantage is that Fleaso gets used to Bob completely; this disadvantage is she might feel there are no 'safe' places, which would be a particular burden for her when it comes to sleeping (having got used to just with us) overnight.

3) We bite the bullet and bring him in now full time. It will mean he's socialized into being indoors and, as you said, he will have to spend some time indoors, when we get to the UK anyway. So it wont come as a shock to him! The problem is our flat is quite small and Fleaso will get no respite at all.

4) A version of (3), but I leash train Bob and take him out for him in the courtyard. I think he would be OK with a leash. He can get grumpy but he is one of the tamest and good-natured feral cats I have come across. He seems quite obedient so this might work.

5) A version of (4), but moving gradually towards this. Slowly increase his time indoors, with leash training for the outdoors too, until it becomes completely permanent just before we leave. This is the approach favored by my wife.

Obviously, there are no wonderful options that don't involve some stress for Fleaso and Bob; we just have to consider the option, that minimizes this stress.

Any advice on the options above, or anything I might not have considered, would be gladly welcome!

Many thanks again.

James

 

[ArtNJ]

The only additional thing I can share is my belief that cats dont really get used to things as quickly if they are occassional. It takes meaningful time together to make progress in cat relationships.

 

[maggie101]

Thanks to you both A ArtNJ and maggie101 !

You're correct that it's the combination of the situation now, and impending changes, that is influencing our decision.

In 2/3 months' time I will be traveling overland with Fleaso and Bob, by car, to get from Serbia to the UK; three days in a car, two nights in cat-friendly Air BnBs. They will be in two separate large cat carriers, but sharing the bedroom space with each other and me!

In advance of the trip, we will do some practice runs in a car..might even carry them around crowded areas so they get used to the external noise. Our Vet has also advised them to mix a mild sedative with their food for when we undertake the big journey.

With this in mind my wife and I have considered the following options:

1) Carry on as we currently are. The advantage is the cats are used to it, but going and fetching Bob from the outside, and taking him back and forth, is a bit of a pain. It also means we have to be always vigilant when they're near each other. Bob will stay overnight, but my wife wants to train him - or me rather! - not to respond to his 4am meows, but to wait until 6am before I take him out. We have used a bell on him before in the house - even then he is too fast for Fleaso, but we could try again. I use the Fenway, but we could also try catnip (BTW - he has cat houses outside that I have made, and he is very happy running around in the courtyard which is very safe)

A couple of days before we travel we will keep him inside.

2) Only difference to number (1) is we are not vigilant at all and don't separate them at all. The advantage is that Fleaso gets used to Bob completely; this disadvantage is she might feel there are no 'safe' places, which would be a particular burden for her when it comes to sleeping (having got used to just with us) overnight.

3) We bite the bullet and bring him in now full time. It will mean he's socialized into being indoors and, as you said, he will have to spend some time indoors, when we get to the UK anyway. So it wont come as a shock to him! The problem is our flat is quite small and Fleaso will get no respite at all.

4) A version of (3), but I leash train Bob and take him out for him in the courtyard. I think he would be OK with a leash. He can get grumpy but he is one of the tamest and good-natured feral cats I have come across. He seems quite obedient so this might work.

5) A version of (4), but moving gradually towards this. Slowly increase his time indoors, with leash training for the outdoors too, until it becomes completely permanent just before we leave. This is the approach favored by my wife.

Obviously, there are no wonderful options that don't involve some stress for Fleaso and Bob; we just have to consider the option, that minimizes this stress.

Any advice on the options above, or anything I might not have considered, would be gladly welcome!

Many thanks again.

James

Use a food timer for the 4 am wakeup. They even have timers for wet food. You could also clicker train your cats though I doubt you can train a cat when to get up in the morning

 

[JimmyL]

Cat food timers(?) never heard of them...sounds like a great idea...maybe available on Amazon?

We have a cat litter tray in the house that he only occasionally uses; I suspect he is 'demanding' to go outside to go to his normal toilet area.

 

[maggie101]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FG0ZILO/?tag=thecatsite

Of course, be sure you don't over feed and cat does not eat other cats food also

 

[maggie101]

Cat food timers(?) never heard of them...sounds like a great idea...maybe available on Amazon?

We have a cat litter tray in the house that he only occasionally uses; I suspect he is 'demanding' to go outside to go to his normal toilet area.

Or the box isn't big enough,not enough litter,or the location, doesnt like the smell.

 

[JimmyL]

He has used the litter before - I mixed it with some earth taken from the outside, from the spot where he usually does his business.

He sometimes sleeps in until a bit later...my wife thinks it's a battle of wills; one that I am losing. She feels it's a slippery slope just responding to his needs whenever he gets grumpy, and I need to stand firm!

 

[ESAkibble]

Thanks in advance for any advice

I have written before about our cat situation and always received helpful advice.

To recap: my wife and I, both from the UK, are currently living in a flat on a sixth-floor apartment block in Belgrade, Serbia. The flat backs on to a quiet, cat-friendly courtyard shared by other tenement blocks too.

Six years ago we found a blind feral kitten, almost on death’s door. We adopted her and nurtured her back to health. Her name is Fleaso: she stays inside.

Eight months ago we adopted another cat: a youngster we call Bob. He is 18 months old, and for a feral cat is very friendly, loveable. But he is very energetic and likes to play. He comes up to the flat (I have to use the lift to take him up and down to the courtyard). He comes at various times in the day and stays overnight, but gets restless about 4am. Sometimes we try and ignore him, and wait ‘til 7am. But often I ‘crack’ and take him down.

The cats have had eight months to get used to each other. We keep them in separate rooms a lot of the time with the door closed. I have also made a frame with string netting to separate the cats between rooms.

We have tried to integrate them: we usually put Fleaso on a cat tower. Bob normally ignores her but sometimes tries to jump up. She just hisses and he backs off. So they don’t attack each other; they’ve ‘bopped’ each other, but don’t use claws. But he sulks because she won’t play with him, and she spends most of her time nervously crawling about, not sure if he’s around. We’ve been in this situation for the last four months; nothing has changed at all.

Both cats have been sterilised. We occasionally plug in the Feiway hormone stress reducer, but it doesn’t seem to make much difference.

In 2/3 months’ time we will be moving back to the UK. (I will need your advice on traveling with cats, when this happens!) We intend to rent a house with a garden and cat flap, where Bob can come and go as he pleases. Fleaso will remain indoors (obviously we still have to find a place that meets these requirements, so this arrangement can’t be guaranteed)

We were wondering if it’s time to force the issue...not try and separate them at all. We feel it would be a shame if Fleaso never gets to think Bob is not some kind of threat. Maybe keeping them apart is the problem(?) Or maybe it’s time to work with some kind of cat behaviourist, to try and make a breakthrough.

Any thoughts/advice would be most grateful.

Thanks

James

Cats a very unique in personality and I honestly find it best to appreciate each as it’s own. I think it’s really good that they aren’t at each other’s throats, your not experiencing any behavior issues such as urinating in other places then the
and that they are tolerating each other’s presence.
I’ve had quite a few feral/stray who obviously must of heard that I was the one who takes them in. LOL
They didn’t all get along one preferred it’s time alone in the basement while the other found refuge in the garage and the two in my home learned to tolerate each other but never formed any “real bond” that produced play or cuddling.

I wouldn’t be too concerned with keeping them separated but watchful of any bully or over interest red flags. If they tolerate each other you may get lucky and find them snuggling or playing together one day.

best of luck

 

[JimmyL]

The only additional thing I can share is my belief that cats dont really get used to things as quickly if they are occassional. It takes meaningful time together to make progress in cat relationships.

I guess our choice is changing things wholesale in one go, and then sticking to the new routine. This will be a short, sharp, shock for teh cats. Otherwise, I gradually change things - more time in the flat for Bob; gradually introduce leash training, only try and keep them separate at night, etc, etc. I guess there are arguments for either approach...

 

[ArtNJ]

Actually, I don't think I'd want to try to gradually convert an outdoor cat to indoor only. That sounds like a recipe for being driven crazy by non-stop whining for a longgg time. Cold turkey, if your lucky and do a good job preventing escapes, the whining is just a week or two.

To me, the choice is to do the conversion now, or wait on the conversion until the move. I could see either of those choices being reasonable, but I would not try to do conversion gradually. Gradual will just confuse the cat about when he is allowed out and isnt, and lead to even more whining than you have now.