Thoughts on feeding.

[missmimz]

I think you always should aim to feed the highest quality food you can afford. Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they are biologically designed to eat meat, and nothing else. Cats require some additional vitamins and minerals, but everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them, so that's something to keep in mind when you buy any food. I personally don't feed, or recommend, any dry foods.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
I think you always should aim to feed the highest quality food you can afford. Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they are biologically designed to eat meat, and nothing else. Cats require some additional vitamins and minerals, but everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them

This assumes, however, that they're eating live prey, with fur, collagen, tendons, bones, and cetera intact.  I'd take a quick read through Doctor Elisa Katz' insightful articles, reprinted on feline-nutrition dot org, especially Do Cats Need Dietary Fiber?   and a more serious look at Doctor Robert J. Washabau's Canine and Feline Gastroenterology (Chapter 58).   Blood Values of Adult Captive Cheetahs - fed either supplemented beef or whole rabbit carcasses [Zoo Biology Journal: November, 2011; Samuel Depauw, et al]?  (available online at the U.S. National Library of Medicine (N.I.H.) is also well worth reading.

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[missmimz]

 
This assumes, however, that they're eating live prey, with fur, collagen, tendons, bones, and cetera intact.  I'd take a quick read through Doctor Elisa Katz' insightful articles, reprinted on feline-nutrition dot org, especially Do Cats Need Dietary Fiber?   and a more serious look at Doctor Robert J. Washabau's Canine and Feline Gastroenterology (Chapter 58).   Blood Values of Adult Captive Cheetahs - fed either supplemented beef or whole rabbit carcasses [Zoo Biology Journal: November, 2011; Samuel Depauw, et al]?  (available online at the U.S. National Library of Medicine (N.I.H.) is also well worth reading.

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We're not talking about live prey. I don't know what you're taking issue with, so you need to be more specific. How much "fiber" your cat needs is debatable, but they still don't require veggies in their food. You can easily feed a complete balanced homemade diet to a cat with proper vitamins and minerals added that compensate for things that are missing, depending on whether or not you're feeding meat/bones/organs, whole ground animal, or PMR.  

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
We're not talking about live prey. I don't know what you're taking issue with, so you need to be more specific. How much "fiber" your cat needs is debatable, but they still don't require veggies in their food. You can easily feed a complete balanced homemade diet to a cat with proper vitamins and minerals added that compensate for things that are missing, depending on whether or not you're feeding meat/bones/organs, whole ground animal, or PMR. 

The phrase, "obligate carnivore," in felids means that they require meat to survive (this owed in part to their livers' inability to synthesize Niacin from their biosynthetic amino acid tryptophan, their intense requirement for 2-aminoethanesulfonic acid, and even more intense need for the [non-ionised] Alpha-Amino Acid Arginine, without which they would perish), but a diet consisting solely of raw meat, with zero raw fibre, cannot address either colonic function nor gastrointestinal motility. 

That cats require, "meat, and nothing else..." is fallacious as an absolute statement.  Yes - a cat will survive (albeit a shortened Life with otherwise unnecessary health problems) when fed absolutely nothing but raw meat, but the nutritional benefits of a small amount (now, over these past five years, determined to be just under one percent) of insoluble fibre (or, in its place, a larger percentage of soluble fibre) have been shown clearly in several recent zoological studies, including that noted above.  Do cats require the vegetable-based carbohydrate-laden fibre present in so many commercial foods, generally included to reduce the manufacturers' production costs?  No, of course not - but they require at least a small percentage of fibre nonetheless, and at least a few recent papers have laid out theories whose reasoning is scientifically sound and verifiable, suggesting that carbohydrates (in nominal measure) also perform body temperature-related functions as regards absorption, aiding the endocrine system is some capacities.

A great deal is being written today regarding, "raw meat diets," for domestic cats, much of which fails to express to those unfamiliar with felid anatomy the necessity for certain ingredients beyond 100% raw meat.

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[missmimz]

 
The phrase, "obligate carnivore," in felids means that they require meat to survive (this owed in part to their livers' inability to synthesize Niacin from their biosynthetic amino acid tryptophan, their intense requirement for 2-aminoethanesulfonic acid, and even more intense need for the [non-ionised] Alpha-Amino Acid Arginine, without which they would perish), but a diet consisting solely of raw meat, with zero raw fibre, cannot address either colonic function nor gastrointestinal motility. 

That cats require, "meat, and nothing else..." is fallacious as an absolute statement.  Yes - a cat will survive (albeit a shortened Life with otherwise unnecessary health problems) when fed absolutely nothing but raw meat, but the nutritional benefits of a small amount (now, over these past five years, determined to be just under one percent) of insoluble fibre (or, in its place, a larger percentage of soluble fibre) have been shown clearly in several recent zoological studies, including that noted above.  Do cats require the vegetable-based carbohydrate-laden fibre present in so many commercial foods, generally included to reduce the manufacturers' production costs?  No, of course not - but they require at least a small percentage of fibre nonetheless, and at least a few recent papers have laid out theories whose reasoning is scientifically sound and verifiable, suggesting that carbohydrates (in nominal measure) also perform body temperature-related functions as regards absorption, aiding the endocrine system is some capacities.

A great deal is being written today regarding, "raw meat diets," for domestic cats, much of which fails to express to those unfamiliar with felid anatomy the necessity for certain ingredients beyond 100% raw meat.

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I said VERY CLEARLY above that cats require meat and ADDED vitamins and minerals, NOT that they require meat and "nothing else," do not haphazardly misquote me. I would not, and am not, suggesting that anyone feed an unbalanced raw food diet. My goal was to give some very loose guidelines to the OP when searching for a commercial food for his/her cats. There are virtually no commercial foods that don't contain any fillers of some kind. If you want to have a detailed conversation about raw food diets and fiber, we can do that.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
I said VERY CLEARLY above that cats require meat and ADDED vitamins and minerals, NOT that they require meat and "nothing else," do not haphazardly misquote me. I would not, and am not, suggesting that anyone feed an unbalanced raw food diet.

You weren't misquoted.  Your statement was, "Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they are biologically designed to eat meat, and nothing else. Cats require some additional vitamins and minerals, but everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them."

Both sentences are flawed, as shown above with absolute clarity.  Cats are not, "designed to eat meat, and nothing else," and require more than, "some additional vitamins and minerals," with, "everything else, including all grains and veggies [being] useless to them.

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[missmimz]

 
You weren't misquoted.  Your statement was, "Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they are biologically designed to eat meat, and nothing else. Cats require some additional vitamins and minerals, but everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them."

Both sentences are flawed, as shown above with absolute clarity.  Cats are not, "designed to eat meat, and nothing else," and require more than, "some additional vitamins and minerals," with, "everything else, including all grains and veggies [being] useless to them.

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You did misquote me when you deliberately quoted the part where I said "nothing else" and ignored the part where I clearly said they need additional vitamins and minerals. Apparently, what is lost on you is that this isn't a conversation about raw foods, or homemade diets, and that my comment was made very specifically within the context of commercial foods only.  I'm happy to discuss your opinions on your cherry picked sources that defend "nominal" amounts of certain fiber and carbs in cat foods, and whether or not they're necessary, but they are entirely irrelevant to this post. The OP asked about commercial foods, and I gave some broad facts about cats biological needs to help guide them in order to help avoid them the high carbs and fillers in most commercial foods. This is not intended to be a debate about "nominal" amounts of fiber or carbs that "might" benefit some cats, because those essentially don't exist in the commercial food market. I am not directing, or suggesting the OP, or anyone else feed unbalanced raw foods, and i made that very clear in my original comment. Not all "fiber" is created equal. If you want to make some argument that the "fiber" in commercial cat foods (being starchy veggies, mostly) is good for cats, I'd love to see your sources on that. Feel free to PM me to continue this. 

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

I'd respectfully suggest, based upon statements such as that which claims that cats are, "designed to eat meat, and nothing else," and that, ""everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them," that perhaps you read through some modern nutritional studies - especially those recommended in Post #3.

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[missmimz]

I'd respectfully suggest, based upon statements such as that which claims that cats are, "designed to eat meat, and nothing else," and that, ""everything else, including all grains and veggies are useless to them," that perhaps you read through some modern nutritional studies - especially those recommended in Post #3.

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I've read your sources, and they don't back up whatever claim you're trying to make. Your fiber claim is way off, and you don't even have any valid sources to back that up. Your claim that cats can't survive off just meat is accurate, and I never said they could, so I have no idea what you're even commenting about. I made it clear from the beginning raw meats must be supplemented, aka what I meant what i said they need additional vitamins and minerals. I can't access your book source, so unless you want to pull quotes from that we can't discuss it. 

From your Feline Nutrition article - "The bottom line is that it appears that healthy cats on a bio-appropriate diet have very little if any need for fiber." 

Great, your source makes the same claim i am, which is that cats don't need any fiber in their diet unless they're having some constipation or diarrhea issues. 

The article "Blood values of adult captive cheetahs (Acinonyx jubatus) fed either supplemented beef or whole rabbit carcasses." - There's nothing in here about fiber, but they do talk about fat. We know cats do well on higher fat diets, and we know fat can help with constipation issues too. The study doesn't indicate what they supplemented beef with (aka what vitamins and minerals), but we do know that where meat is sourced from matters in terms of things like omegas in the meats. Grass fed beef vs. corn fed, for example. We also know that rabbit is naturally very low in taurine, and should always be supplemented. This is actually a good article to support protein rotation, more than anything else. 

Here's some fiber sources for you - 

http://www.foodfurlife.com/what-does-it-mean-the-cat-is-an-obligate-carnivore.html

http://www.foodfurlife.com/the-natural-diet-of-the-cat.html 

From Dr. Hofve - "Cats and dogs have no absolute physiologic need for it, although animals eating processed commercial foods appear to benefit from the addition of fiber." - According to her, unnecessary for raw fed cats to have fiber. 

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/fiber-facts/

Finally, most raw feeders, including myself, add good quality human grade probiotics to their cats raw food to help provide the probiotics that they would get in the wild from eating their prey, like cheetah's do eating the stomachs of their prey. A balanced digestive system doesn't require additional fiber. 

"Cats have one of the shortest digestive tract-to-body lengths in the animal world. As obligate carnivores, cats do not naturally consume anything we think of as fiber, and physiologically, they are not “built” to ferment fiber in the gut (which is how people support healthy populations of bacteria).  - See more at: http://www.foodfurlife.com/use-probiotics-in-cats.html#sthash.UaJOMyXy.dpuf

Hopefully we're done here.