Sudden and violent aggression towards dog

[texasredreb]

Logan got a clean bill of health except for the broken tooth with exposed nerve--it was a canine tooth and it's been extracted. Now I'm going to wait until his mouth heals and his pain recedes to see if he is any better--behaviorally. 

...and the bill was "only" $788.00!

Right now he's sleeping off the anesthesia in his bathroom. I haven't heard a peep out of him--so I checked and he was sleeping comfortably. I'll let him out to resume normal routines tomorrow morning. He has two doses of pain meds that I need to administer starting tomorrow afternoon. That should be fun....

 

[whollycat]

Logan got a clean bill of health except for the broken tooth with exposed nerve--it was a canine tooth and it's been extracted. Now I'm going to wait until his mouth heals and his pain recedes to see if he is any better--behaviorally. 

...and the bill was "only" $788.00!

Right now he's sleeping off the anesthesia in his bathroom. I haven't heard a peep out of him--so I checked and he was sleeping comfortably. I'll let him out to resume normal routines tomorrow morning. He has two doses of pain meds that I need to administer starting tomorrow afternoon. That should be fun....

Aw...so glad he's home safe and sound. When you get ready to do his pain meds, just talk to him and tell him what you're doing and how it's going to help him. You'd be surprised how that can help sometimes--plus kitties really pick up on our vibes, so if you're apprehensive, he's going to pick up on that.

Also, make sure you keep on top of any pain he is experiencing after the pain med (buprenex?) is gone; you may need to get a bit more from the vet.

Gentle headbutts to Logan. Feel better soon, precious boy!!

 

[whollycat]

How is Logan doing?

 

 

[texasredreb]

Logan seems to be doing well enough. He bit the "you-know-what" out of me when I reached down to pick up his food bowl yesterday. No growl, no warning--just a very painful bite to the inside of my arm--above the elbow. I didn't react at all--just ignored it as I know he is on pain meds and he is still sore.

Giving him his metacam was a non-issue: I squirted it into his canned food and he gobbled it right up. 

He's loving the canned food--too much, methinks. 

He spent the first morning post surgery throwing up and he was still very, very groggy and unsteady. Vet said that was due to the long acting nature of the pain reliever.

He quit puking mid-morning yesterday and has been mostly sleeping and begging for the soft food!

 

[whollycat]

Aw, glad to hear Logan's recovering well.

Um, the Metacam: how many doses did the vet say to give, and how much each dose, for how long? Purrsonally, I would never use it, but it is an individual thing; most folks do not recommend it, especially long term. I'll provide info and you can decide for yourself. You can check these links: FDA Press Release re Metacam and The Truth About Metacam and Metacam Kills.

Does Logan have any kidney issues? Can't remember if you mentioned this or not.

Is that all the vet provided for pain relief?

Maxie is sending gentle headbutts to his fellow Maine Coon buddy! Me, Abby, and Izzy send our cuddles and 'feel better soon' wishes, too.

 

[tiggely]

Hi WhollyCat,

Just read with interest your comments on the use of Metacam and thought I'd share my experience of it with you.

My dear old Sooty had terrible arthritis in his back legs, to the point where he couldn't jump onto the kitchen work surfaces from the floor.(Yes, I know, not terribly hygienic, but hey, it's his house too.) The Vet put him on Metacam, .05mg/ml and, at 5.2kg, (approx. 11.5lbs) he had to have a dose of mark 5 on the syringe that comes with the Metacam, once a day.

I gave him one dose every day with his evening meal and luckily he actually liked it, opening his mouth and holding his head up as soon as I got the bottle off the shelf, even before I'd got the syringe ready! I never even had to hold him to administer it. He lived comfortably and happily for nearly three years on it, until he was attacked by a dog/dogs just over a year ago, made it home and into my dog's bed, where he died with my Siberian Husky, whose bed it was, guarding him and trying to lick him better.

Since I got the Metacam, several of my other cats have had a dose or two of it, after dental work, castration and spaying etc. with no adverse effects. The Vet or I just weigh the cat and I give them the nearest mark on the syringe to their weight in kilos. ie. Twinkle is 2.9kg so she would have a dose of mark 3 on the syringe, Marley is 3.5kg so he gets up to mark 3.5 on the syringe, Daggart is 4.2kg so he'd get up to mark 4 etc. etc. etc. (I've got nine cats and two dogs.)

Hope this was of interest to you,

Twinkle

 

[whollycat]

Hi WhollyCat,

Just read with interest your comments on the use of Metacam and thought I'd share my experience of it with you.

Metacam has become a knee-jerk, off-label drug that some vets dispense without adhering to the warnings specifically regarding kitties. I stand by what I have said in other threads on these forums, and by the links I provided in this one. I, too, have personal experience with this drug, so I am very familiar with its use. Yes, the taste is very palatable for pets, kitties included--but that doesn't mean it is good for them or safe long-term. I choose to be guided by the warning that the FDA posted (and must be on the label) and to opt for a different treatment if the need arises.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm231254.htm

WARNING

Repeated use of meloxicam in cats has been associated with acute renal failure and death. Do not administer additional injectable or oral meloxicam to cats. See Contraindications, Warnings, and Precautions for detailed information.

You got lucky with your kitty (my heartfelt condolences at your loss

). The other kitties you and your vet are following a minimum dosage schedule; i.e. only a few dosages after neuter/spay, etc. Me, I'm going to err on the side of caution and not use this for my kitties. My own vet will not prescribe Metacam anymore. I feel blessed to have her.

 

[mypallily]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.  In the past, I had 5 cats and one dog.  It was really interesting to see the hierarchy change whenever one died.  Recently, we had two dogs (one older part cattle dog/part border collie and a 1 1/2 year old Mini Australian Shepherd) and two cats, both about 12 years old..  When my old companion dog died, the pet family dynamics changed.  The Aussie started taking on the characteristics of my old buddy.  We actually were hoping this would happen...That was part of the reason we got a puppy before my buddy passed away.  We wanted to have a good example for the new dog to follow.  It wasn't until my dog died that we realized just how much the Aussie truly learned from her.  My point is, maybe your cat is trying to take on the role of alpha pet.  The older dog died and the hierarchy changes.  This doesn't make up for the fact that the cat is out of line, but it may explain why it is happening or should I say the aggression has accelerated.  The tooth certainly could be a contribution factor.  You probably won't know for sure how much of a factor it is until the extracted tooth has healed and the cat is off pain killers. 

This still leave the question, how do you address this problem.  Maybe the type of play should be considered.  I know you said you don't use your hands, but maybe any toy where the cat would show any kind of aggression should be eliminated.  That would mean cat-dancers and toy mouse or birds would be eliminated from playtime.  A plastic ball would be good as no back claws and actual attack mode wouldn't be involved.  The whole idea would be to have play without aggression. 

I know this is hard to see at times, but when your cat goes for your leg or arm, often there is some sort of warning sign...ears flatten or tail twitches...something generally happens before the attack.  If you can be completely aware of this pre-attack then sidestep it so he misses and then if you can, give him a time out in another room and shut the door or you leave the room until you feel he has settled down.  Reinforce good behaviour with a light treat or a new toy.  Hopefully once it is established who is top pet, there will be some semblance of peace.  Remember though, this cat has always had an aggressive streak and sometimes as cats get older they either mellow out or get more aggressive.  My hope is that once this tooth is better, things will go back to some sort of normal, but generally when one of the pack dies, there is a mourning period and new leader is established....at least, that's what I've noticed with my pet family.

 

[texasredreb]

Thank you both for your responses.

To address the metacam issue: the cat received three doses of the medication. One was given as an injection while he was at the vet's office and I gave the other two doses orally. The cat weighs 25lbs (I said 30lb in my OP, but that was an estimate). He also received a long term pain control medication, intravenously. I don't know what it was,exactly. The bill says it was an "advanced pain control package" and that it was administered via IV catheter. 

Logan is not, nor has he ever been the alpha of the household, nor was the elder cattle dog. Brew has been alpha since he was 4 months old--which was the time that he wrested "alpha" from the former alpha dog--our dearly departed English Bulldog. 

When Logan first came into our household--he was the newest addition to a large pet population. We had a 23 year old cat (Maggie) and a 21 year old cat (Jazzman); the English Bulldog (Bos'n) who was about 8-9 years old; the Australian Cattle Dog, Sydney who was about 6-7 years old; and Brew, the mastiff, who was a puppy. Logan was about 6 months old when we adopted him and Brew was 8 weeks old. Brew arrived first and then Logan a few weeks later. 

The two elderly cats died a year or so later--when they suffered melamine poisoning. Jazzman died within a few days and Maggie within a few months. Logan was also injured by the melamine, but recovered. Logan seemed not to act any differently with the passing of the two cats. He didn't interact with them over-much as they didn't like him any more than he, them. A few years later, the English Bulldog passed away suddenly at the age of almost 15. The cattle dog mourned him, but the others seemed fine. Fast forward a few more years and Sydney dies at age 16. Now there are only two pets and both mourned the passing of Sydney. Surprisingly, Logan more so than Brew. 

Yes, Logan has a history of being aggressive. We would never consider re-homing him for the aggression he displays to us--it's just his "baggage." Now that he is attacking the dog--it's a different story. The dog can kill him. I do not want that to happen--nor do I want to re-home either pet. That's not an option. 

I can attempt to play with Logan with balls and other 'chase' type toys. The problem with having small toys around is that if I forget to retrieve them all--Brew can swallow and choke. 

Oddly, Logan is now fascinated with Brew's toys and I have to keep Brew's toys picked up or Logan with "guard" them. 

 

[whollycat]

Real quick one here (I'm a bit pressed for time). I posted what I did about Metacam because of Logan's kidney issues from the melamine poisoning. Metacam is contraindicated for kitties with kidney issues, so that was my concern for Logan in particular. I'm glad you should be done with the Metacam by now.

Hey, did the "son" vet suggest anything for Logan that the "father" vet did not regarding behavior?

More later!

 

 

[texasredreb]

I appreciate the warning about the metacam. I'll look to avoid it in the future for Logan. Luckily, all of his kidney values have continued to show as normal. 

The "son vet" joined his mother's practice 

They were educated at two different veterinary school's so they are not carbon copies of one another--and son is not a recent graduate; he'd been practicing for while on his own. 

So far I think that the son is hoping for some resolution with the removal of the sore tooth and the passage of time. He knows Logan's history with humans, but is hoping that his behavior of aggression towards the dog is short lived. Before proceeding, we are allowing the cat to heal from the surgery.

 

[texasredreb]

I appreciate the warning about the metacam. I'll look to avoid it in the future for Logan. Luckily, all of his kidney values have continued to show as normal. 

The "son vet" joined his mother's practice 

They were educated at two different veterinary school's so they are not carbon copies of one another--and son is not a recent graduate; he'd been practicing for while on his own. 

So far I think that the son is hoping for some resolution with the removal of the sore tooth and the passage of time. He knows Logan's history with humans, but is hoping that his behavior of aggression towards the dog is short lived. Before proceeding, we are allowing the cat to heal from the surgery.

 

[mypallily]

I hope you didn't read into what I wrote that I thought you should rehome one of your companions because that is far from what I meant.  In fact, I actually think this problem can be solved.  I'm hoping that the tooth infection is at the root of this issue, but if it isn't, then from what you have said, it sounds to me like it really is a situation where Logan is challenging Brew for supremacy.  Even you mentioning that Logan is guarding Brew's toys is an indication of ownership. 

If once the tooth has healed and you still have this problem, it might not be a bad idea to talk with your vet about bringing in an animal behaviourist to help with this problem.  I know it may run into some major cash, but it may be worth considering.   In the meantime, fingers crossed that this is simply the grieving process compounded by the infected tooth.  Please let me know how things work out.

 

[whollycat]

...I'm hoping that the tooth infection is at the root of this issue, but if it isn't, then from what you have said, it sounds to me like it really is a situation where Logan is challenging Brew for supremacy.  Even you mentioning that Logan is guarding Brew's toys is an indication of ownership. 

If once the tooth has healed and you still have this problem, it might not be a bad idea to talk with your vet about bringing in an animal behaviourist to help with this problem.  I know it may run into some major cash, but it may be worth considering.   In the meantime, fingers crossed that this is simply the grieving process compounded by the infected tooth.  Please let me know how things work out.

Logan has most always been a fractious kitty. He comes from an abusive (to me) background from what texasredreb has said (teenage boys playing with him too roughly [I fear that is only part of the story from them]). Due to this he exhibits fear by being aggressive with humans if pressed too far. He was hurt big time by Brew and got a torn ACL, which is very painful, so I feel he has held a deep rooted fear of Brew because of this. He doesn't know that Brew didn't mean to hurt him, just that he did. He also probably wasn't too keen on being chased by Brew early on--even if he sometimes initiated it. (No offense meant, texasredreb!) He exhibits his fear by going on the offensive and attacking Brew. Fight or flight? Logan will fight every time, being the brave "little" fella he is.

Most everything in his world is bigger, taller, scarier, and more intimidating to him because of his bad past, etc. Poor bubby.

Couple his background and his injury and the cracked tooth (and even the recent loss), and you have one angry, scared kitty. I've been working on a plan for Logan that includes:

• Identifying his triggers
• After identifying his triggers, counterconditioning and/or desensitizing using treats and other methods
• Included in the above would be to "re-set" his bad association with Brew
• Introduce new ways to play to help him get aggression out in a healthy way by doing what kitties love to do: play, attack, and capture their prey
• Put to use Flower Essences (Flower Power!
  
  ) and L-Theanine, such as Dr's Best Suntheanine (a human supplement that can help kitties relax--I use this with mine and it really does help)

Those are some of the things I've been working on to put in place for Logan. I just need to flesh it out with more detail.

 

[mypallily]

Logan has most always been a fractious kitty. He comes from an abusive (to me) background from what texasredreb has said (teenage boys playing with him too roughly [I fear that is only part of the story from them]). Due to this he exhibits fear by being aggressive with humans if pressed too far. He was hurt big time by Brew and got a torn ACL, which is very painful, so I feel he has held a deep rooted fear of Brew because of this. He doesn't know that Brew didn't mean to hurt him, just that he did. He also probably wasn't too keen on being chased by Brew early on--even if he sometimes initiated it. (No offense meant, texasredreb!) He exhibits his fear by going on the offensive and attacking Brew. Fight or flight? Logan will fight every time, being the brave "little" fella he is.

Most everything in his world is bigger, taller, scarier, and more intimidating to him because of his bad past, etc. Poor bubby.

Couple his background and his injury and the cracked tooth (and even the recent loss), and you have one angry, scared kitty. I've been working on a plan for Logan that includes:

• Identifying his triggers
• After identifying his triggers, counterconditioning and/or desensitizing using treats and other methods
• Included in the above would be to "re-set" his bad association with Brew
• Introduce new ways to play to help him get aggression out in a healthy way by doing what kitties love to do: play, attack, and capture their prey
• Put to use Flower Essences (Flower Power!
  
  ) and L-Theanine, such as Dr's Best Suntheanine (a human supplement that can help kitties relax--I use this with mine and it really does help)

Those are some of the things I've been working on to put in place for Logan. I just need to flesh it out with more detail.

I've read this whole thread and it appears we are seeing this problem differently.  Having said that, as far as I'm concerned, whatever works the best is the way to go because every cat and person is different...There is rarely one solution fits all. 

I agree that there should be a plan in place.  I am a believer in kindness and not aggression as always the better policy when trying to manage any difficult situation.  Aggression breeds more aggression and that is the last thing one want for this or any cat.  I mentioned about play with non aggressive toys which I stand by as a way to refocus negative energy.  I believe that regardless if the cat has a natural tendency to attack, this should not be encouraged even with toys because it can spill over to people or other animals.  If it's OK to be aggressive with toys then why not with people?  I simply wouldn't encourage aggression in any way.  Similar to dogs, tugging a toy and shaking it, means the dog is actually killing his toy.  Teach a cat or dog to play with their toys without aggression is a good way to release energy and have a well adjusted companion. 

My feeling about using Flower Essences is, there is no harm in trying.  As I said before, 'Whatever works".  I did try this with one of my cats and to be completely honest, it did absolutely nothing.  The funny thing is, I know people who have taken the same thing and it has definitely worked and others not at all.  Again, there is not one pill or remedy that is the magical answer to problems such as this.  There is a lot of trial and error, in my opinion.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is take the information that has been provide for you on this site, read about behavioural techniques that have been proven to work and then figure out what you think would be best for your situation.  We can sit here and be armchair critics, but we aren't in your situation.  We may have had similar experiences at some point but everyone's experience is different.  That means you need to figure out, with the information that has been provided, what is the best way to address your problem.  If that doesn't work, then I would seriously consider a behavioural therapist. 

As much as I believe whatever works, remember that Flower Essences and any natural remedies don't have the same guidelines as prescribed medication from a doctor whether it be vet or family physician.  It has been found that some remedies do not contain the suggested amount of active ingredients mentioned on the labels.  Even in the same bottle if it is in pill form, each pill could be different.  That would not be the case with prescribed medication from your vet.  By all means, try the Flower Essences, but don't discount the vet's advice either.  My vet actually advised me to try some natural remedies for both my one cat and dog.  For the dog it was fish oil and glucosamine which worked for a time on his arthritis, but for the cat it was Rescue Remedy and it did absolutely nothing.  No matter what, this whole exercise may be a trial and error situation, but worth it none the less.  Good luck.

 

[whollycat]

 I mentioned about play with non aggressive toys which I stand by as a way to refocus negative energy.  I believe that regardless if the cat has a natural tendency to attack, this should not be encouraged even with toys because it can spill over to people or other animals.  If it's OK to be aggressive with toys then why not with people?  I simply wouldn't encourage aggression in any way. 

Only time to address this part of your post right now.

It makes no difference if it's a "non aggressive" toy or not. Cats, domestic or wild, have an innate natural instinct to hunt, catch, and kill their "prey." Whether it is a fuzzy inanimate toy mouse, or an interactive toy like Da Bird, it makes no difference to them. It's also not "negative energy" that they are exhibiting, it is their natural instinct to attack and/or kill a perceived threat or for food. I have never seen a kitty become "aggressive" with a toy whether interactive or not unless they are provoked by something or someone treating them in an aggressive way with the toy.

Playing with an interactive toy, to me, is not encouraging aggression; it is giving them a safe outlet for pent up energy that could lead to unprovoked aggression if not given this constructive outlet. The only way it could be considered aggressive play is if the human at the other end uses it in a threatening way.

Hells bells, if what you say is the case I should be torn to shreds because my kitties play quite aggressively with Da Bird--all three at the same time. Little Izzy even growls as she "captures" it and tells her much larger brothers that this "bird" is MINE, until I gently redirect the "bird" towards someone else. They sure don't attack me. Under your hypothesis, I should be under attack even when I don't play with them using this interactive "aggressive" toy. Or they should be attacking each other, but they don't. When play time (hunting/capturing, killing) is over it is meal time (they eat because they "hunted down" and "killed" their prey--and voila! there is is on their plates

), then nap time. Since using interactive toys with them I have noticed my oldest boy (16 in Aug) gain more confidence and not be so skittish about outside noises. And all of them seem more content and less bored because they are getting to do what feral/wild kitties would get to do by exercising their natural instincts. I feel this type of play is life enriching and has the opposite effect that one might think. They have tons of toys, but none are enjoyed more fiercely than the interactive ones.

You can't compare a dog and a kitty. They are distinctly different. You can also train a dog to kill, but you'd be hard-pressed to find even one example of someone training a domestic cat to do this. They are wired differently in that way. A kitty becoming aggressive most always has an underlying cause, e.g. unknown physical condition, being injured (even if by accident) by someone or another animal, or humans dishing out torment and abuse or using their hands too aggressively during play. Whatever the cause, the kitty can be triggered in a PTSD way and react aggressively over and over to perceived threats (whether real or not) until the cause(s) can be resolved with positive conditioning in a controlled manner. And yes, part of that is interactive play when they are calm and not waiting until they are in aggression-mode. Redirecting and refocusing them at the very first signs of aggressive behavior (twitch of their tail or ears slightly back or constricted pupils, etc.) is also a way to "re-set" their behavior to a positive outlet which they will discover is much more enjoyable.

 

[whollycat]

Texasredreb, how is Logan doing? Been thinking a lot about him!

 

 

[killercannuck]

Hello there i've just read your post and i too have a cat that has suddenly turned aggressive towards our dog. My cat has lived with our dog ever since he was born (he is 1.5 years old) and just last week after bathing the dog from a play in th mud outside, the cat suddenly and very viciously began attacking our dog. This has gone on for several days and the dog has now began hunting the cat at every possible chance. I was wondering if you had figured out in anyway how to curb your cat of this aggressive behavior? I love all my animals and i don't want to see either of them hurt so any info would be great !

Josh Dunphy

Newmarket ON