Starting Raw Feeding - Advice for a Newbie?

[thevegancuddler]

So I've finally made the decision to switch over to raw feeding. It was a tough choice for me at first because I'm vegan, so the thought of handling raw meat disgusts me. =P And also it's very intimidating! There's a lot of information and a lot of thinking to do besides just 'Put out some raw kibble for the furbabies.'

All of that said, though, I obviously want my little ones to be as healthy and happy as possible! I've been feeding my dog wet for awhile, because she has bad teeth and can't chew the kibble. My cats come running and try to steal it every time, so I'm sure they'll do well without kibble, haha.

I'm wondering if you guys have any advice for a newbie to the raw diet? What recipes/formulas do you follow? I have five kitties myself. One is almost five, one is one, and three are six months. The eldest does have some interesting urination habits, which I think I've narrowed down to just extreme litter box pickyness, but nevertheless, it's something I keep in mind. Otherwise, all are healthy... if not varying degrees of tubby.

Any words of wisdom would be much appreciated!

 

[ritz]

Welcome to the Raw Side!

First, breathe.

If you can afford it, go commercial raw for a while.  Lots of variety out there, from RadCat (single source protein) to Nature's Variety (sign up on their web site for some good coupons) to Bravo (look for the nutritional complete versions) to Primal (that's how I started out Ritz; they have a 'variety' package.

While your cats/kittens are getting use to seeing raw food as being, well, food, read.  Read some more.  BUT don't get bogged down into the nitty gritty details (for now, unless your cat has certain medical conditions, you don't have to worry/obsess about phosphors to calcium ratio; or how much bone is in that chicken head).

Two excellent sites are www.catcentric.org and www.catinfo.org And of course the stickies at the top of the raw forum.

When reading, think about what 'form' of raw you want to feed:  some members raise their own mice and rabbits to feed; some stick to commercial raw; some (like me) feed whole prey model (use to be called Frankenprey) (how well stocked are the grocery stores near where you live?); some make their own raw (need a grinder for that); some do a combination of all three--with the occasional good quality canned food fed ("WHAT, you want ME to wait while you defrost the raw food YOU forgot to defrost!" so sayeth Ritz.  And for cat sitters who will not touch raw)

And remember the cardinal rule:  80/10/5/5:  80% protein/meat, 10% bone; 5% liver; 5% secreting organs like kidney.  That percentage can be tweaked a little depending on your cat's idiosyncrasies (Ritz is bone to constipation so I feed about 7% bone).

PS:  if you suspect a UTI, take your cat to the vet of course.  Turkey breast has a natural urine acidifier in it.  Don't go overboard with that protein, but keep that in mind.  I buy freeze dried turkey treats for that reason; Ritz is prone to UTIs.

Finally, congratulations on recognizing that cats need to be fed a species-appropriate diet.  There are some other vegans who fed raw.  My TNR mentor is also a vegan.  You recognize that cats HAVE to be meat eaters; humans, don't.  That's a key difference.

 

[ldg]

Given you're a vegan, you might want to start with something that requires the least handling of meat and organs. :nod:

If you don't have a kitchen scale, you'll need one. :nod: We discuss them in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248078/food-scale-recommendations-please

Have you purchased any meat to offer them yet? You might want to buy the smallest package of chicken breasts there is at the supermarket, slice off small bite-sized pieces, and see how each one reacts to the treat. That's always a good place to start!

The easiest (but not the least expensive!) way to feed raw worry-free is to use commercial raw food, if you can afford it. You don't have the same control, but for many people it's a nice way to start. Gets us used to feeding raw - gets cats used to recognizing it as food :lol3: - and without having to worry about whether or not the food is balanced. From there, it's easier to branch out into different modes of feeding raw. :nod:

The next-easiest method is a supplement that makes just meat complete. :nod:

There is

TCfeline (though it has to be purchased through a U.S. distributor - I think there's a link from within the site): http://tcfeline.com/tcfeline-usa/

Better in the Raw http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_better_in_the_raw

Call of the Wild (CoTW): http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php (cheaper at http://www.chewy.com

I think CoTW is the most expensive to use, but I'm not sure. TCfeline might be, actually. :lol3:

If you're up to handling liver, you can use Alnutrin with calcium, or Alnutrin with eggshell (both mean you don't need to feed bones).

We just calculated today that the Alnutrin with eggshell adds $0.50 per pound to the cost of the food.

ALL of these supplements can be added to food

- you grind, then portion and freeze, OR

- you can just add them in the correct amount to individual meals. We can help with the calculations.

If I remember correctly, you're a college student? I know peaches08 is or at least was when she started raw feeding. She did invest in a grinder, and the payback was 8 months. She uses the recipe on Dr. Pierson's website: http://www.catinfo.org

There's a very similar recipe, but the way it's explained, it makes it easier to use any protein when making the food: http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html (Note Dr. Pierson's discussion of the addition of fiber, like psyllium husk or guar gum to the food on the CatInfo website. For the most part, it isn't necessary. It is noted as optional in the CatNutrition recipe).

If you can afford it, it's easy to use the (basically) whole ground animal mixes from http://www.hare-today.com and add the Alnutrin (for meat, bones, organs - NOT the one with the calcium or eggshell in it, because the grinds have bones in them). When you order 40 - 50 pounds (a full box is 50 pounds of meat), it adds a little less than $1 per pound to shipping. But with this method, the kitties get EVERYTHING but the stomach, intestines, and colon of the animal.

And then there's prey model raw, where you basically feed chunks of meat, organs, and bone-in meals in the basic proportion of 80% meat, 6% - 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ (most use kidney, because it's easiest to source). Sources of info for that: http://www.CatCentric.org and http://rawfedcats.org/

For ANY diet, it's a good idea to "supplement" with egg yolks once or twice a week (this also helps prevent hairballs), and tinned sardines (in water, no salt). These are both nutrition-packed packages, with a source of healthy fats for cats, vitamin D, and the eggs also provide needed choline.

In fact - you can dive right in and offer those as treats now. I split one 4.25 ounce tin between my 8 cats weekly. Most of mine hate egg yolks (most cats like them :lol3: ), so I "hide" them in ground raw food I purchase from Hare Today.

Finally - just remember there is no rush. In fact, the diet you feed them doesn't even have to be 100% raw. Many people still include some canned food. Just like with people eating a highly processed diet, your kitties will benefit from the addition of fresh, whole foods - but it doesn't HAVE to be their exclusive diet. So most importantly, remember not to drive yourself nuts. You don't need to do everything at once, or know everything out of the starting gate. :lol3:

 

[peaches08]

Congratulations on finding a better way to feed your pets! Unless I'm mistaken, you can feed your dog from the cat recipes. Hopefully someone will chime in on that one.

My grinder and upright freezer paid themselves off in about 8 months. I have 3 young cats that were on Fancy Feast classics, Friskies pate, and 9 Lives (low carb varieties). But the vet visits, tests, and meds for chronic diarrhea...even though my vet discounted my bills, bills added up. Now they get their raw food and that's it. I don't even treat for fleas anymore (strictly indoor cats).

Know that there is also the option to cook the meat if one of your pets needs it. No cooked bones though, they splinter.

 

[thevegancuddler]

I'd definitely love to hear people's thoughts on the dog matter! She's between 4 and 7 years old, and about fifteen pounds. She has some health issues, so maybe raw would be good for her, too.

I finally graduated, actually, so I have an apartment in which to prepare things, yay! I'll be going the route of preparing my own food, because, with five cats, I don't think I can afford the alternatives. =P So while I'd love to start commercially for that worry-free experience... I think I'm gonna have to pony up for the initial expenses of a grinder and supplements and go that route.

 

[vball91]

A member here (HarleyDiva) feeds her dogs the same raw food she feeds her cats. My understanding is that cats have narrower nutritional needs than dogs, so pretty much anything you feed to cats you can give to dogs, but not the other way around. Both are carnivores. The nice thing about having a dog is that what the cats won't eat (those darn picky creatures), the dog will, so there's no food wasted.

 

[ldg]

In fact, the raw-feeding for carnivores started with dogs. I know far more people raw feeding dogs than cats.

 

[ritz]

Sounds like a plan!

You might find a used grinder on ebay or Craigs List.  A small freezer might come in hand; these you can also find, used, on Craig's List or a yard/garage sale.

For a source of some unusual proteins such as goose or deer, you can post a "wanted" ad on Craigs List under "farm+garden", asking if there are any hunters who need to clean out their freezer from last year.  "For health and safety reasons, I feed raw."

Though I would spring for a brand new digital scale unless you can ensure accuracy.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You might actually find a raw feeding coop in your area where you can get meats already ground w/bone and organs for a really great price and not need a grinder, OR your furkids may go straight to Frankenprey and you might not have a need for a grinder.  One of mine eats Frankenprey, and I buy his meats at Safeway (when they are on sale), and the other likes his ground, so I get his from the local coop already all ground up for me.   (my 3rd cat is on canned at the moment, so no comment about her

)   So for the ones currently eating raw, I just add the supplements to their meat and their good to go.   For supplements, I use Call of the Wild for one (Frankenprey 'cause he can't eat liver

) and Alnutrin (without calcium) for the other, and Krill Oil for both, plus probiotics daily for all three. 

 

[ldg]

:nod: You can search to see if there are any local or area Yahoo BARF groups. They're usually made up of mostly dog people, but the co-op foods would be the same for cats (usually). There is one co-op here that buys stuff that is 20% collard greens. I wouldn't feed THAT to a cat. But other opportunities do come up from time-to-time.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You can search to see if there are any local or area Yahoo BARF groups. They're usually made up of mostly dog people, but the co-op foods would be the same for cats (usually). There is one co-op here that buys stuff that is 20% collard greens. I wouldn't feed THAT to a cat. But other opportunities do come up from time-to-time.

Yes, that's true.  MOST of the pre-ground meats have fruits and vegies added, but, here, at least, not ALL of them do.  PLUS, if you can find other people to share an order, you can get a SUPER deal on whole meats (for Frankenprey), but they only sell it in large quantities (like 40 lbs or more

)

 

[thevegancuddler]

Can someone explain what Frankenprey is? Not sure I follow on that one.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

As a vegetarian for most of my life, I found it surprisingly easy to handle meat for my cat. Not sure why. I have refused to handle it for people, maybe because I think they can do it themselves or eat something else. But for my cat, I was ripping up chicken necks and chopping up gizzards no problems. I guess because my cat has to eat meat and can't exactly defrost it himself. Either that or I love my cat more than people

 Quite possible! Anyway, I know that's not what you were asking but just thought I'd share.

 

[ravencorbie]

Frankenprey is the idea of creating the ideal whole animal by combining different parts (just as Dr. Frankenstein created his "monster").  The percentages are 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ.  Liver is clear, but "heart" and "gizzards" count as meat, not organ.  Then you feed this over the course of a week.  That is, you don't have perfectly balanced individual meals, but the diet as a whole is balanced over the course of a week.  You want to space out the meat because you don't want any meal that is 100% organ, as it's overly rich.  I can't imagine eating (or asking a cat to eat) a meal made up entirely of bone, either.  Some people substitute supplements or dried eggshells for the bone.  More information is at http://catcentric.org

Hope that helps!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Frankenprey is the idea of creating the ideal whole animal by combining different parts (just as Dr. Frankenstein created his "monster").  The percentages are 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ.  Liver is clear, but "heart" and "gizzards" count as meat, not organ.  Then you feed this over the course of a week.  That is, you don't have perfectly balanced individual meals, but the diet as a whole is balanced over the course of a week.  You want to space out the meat because you don't want any meal that is 100% organ, as it's overly rich.  I can't imagine eating (or asking a cat to eat) a meal made up entirely of bone, either.  Some people substitute supplements or dried eggshells for the bone.  More information is at http://catcentric.org

Hope that helps!

, but NOT ground.  When I refer to it, I am referring to CUTS of meats/liver, etc., rather than ground.  For instance, when i feed turkey thigh, I will cut it into strips perhaps the size of my index finger so my guy can work his jaw bones and clean his teeth at the same time. Same with a chuck roast, etc.  Lots of folks feed chicken wings so their furkids get the bones in there as their calcium "fix".  (I just haven't progressed that far, so I use something else for the 10% bone)

 

[thevegancuddler]

I see... so one day you might feed like a chicken leg with bone, and another day liver and heart? Seems like grinding it all up and adding in the appropriate supplements would be easier... What are the advantages/disadvantages of grinding vs frankenprey?

 

[ravencorbie]

Mrsgreenjeens - whoops!  You're definitely right.  I should have included it, since that's the main reason I'm planning on doing Frankenprey.

Personally, I wouldn't give parts of turkey one day and heart/liver the next because I'd imagine that even though it counts as "meat" for balancing, the heart would also be pretty rich.  I'd probably give turkey thighs or cut up chicken breast, etc. every day, and add in the other stuff TO the meat as needed.  I'd probably create a week's worth that was in the right percentages, then portion them out.

It's funny that you say that grinding would be easier, since personally, I feel the opposite would be true.  Anyway, here are my thoughts on the pros and cons (and others may have different reasons):

Ground:

Pros:  You can make a big batch all at once, so if you periodically have a day here or there with lots of time, this might be ideal.  It's pretty easy to balance with supplements, etc., without doing as much math.

Cons:  Because you usually make a big batch all at once, you need space in your freezer for all of it.  Others have also talked about difficulties with portioning:  if they portion it into exact size meals the day they make it, it makes that day go impossibly long, but if they package it in bigger sizes, they have to reportion it each week or whatever.  No effect on mouth issues.

Frankenprey:

Pros:  Chewing on bones and meat chunks, gizzards, etc. is good for the teeth.  You only have to worry about a week at a time, so you have fewer problems with freezer space, and it doesn't use as much time PER preparation.  Since you only have a week's worth, it's also easier to portion.

Cons:  Balancing takes some math.  You have to prepare it more often, so overall preparation time is probably longer. On the other hand, if you're more likely to have a LITTLE extra time every week rather than occasionally having a whole day less often, this might be better.

The other issue is that the nutritionist vets I've read have pretty much all gone with the ground because it's balanced every meal.  On the other hand, Frankenprey is closer to what the cat would eat in its natural environment in the wild (i.e. not feral cats trying to survive in a human environment).

Like I said, I'm sure others will have other opinions.  My preference for Frankenprey is because it seems easier to do a little work every week rather than try to find the time to do all the work on a less frequent basis.  I also cannot afford a grinder at this time AND I don't have the freezer space.  Plus, I love watching my cat eat the little meat chunks I give her as a treat when I'm cooking.

 

[pinkman]

Welcome to the dark side! LOL.

There's a lot of good advice here. I started out with commercial raw, Primal Turkey to be exact. Then I went to ground using Hare Today and a day or two of PMR. Now I do a mixture of Hare Today ground, freeze-dried raw, and some PMR-esque snacks. 

Yes, buying grounds from HT will take up space in the freezer. Portioning wise I use ice cube trays to make little nuggets! Then I bag them up later into 2 days worth of meals. This always worked with me, but with my recent addition (13 week old kitten) I need to figure out another game plan. 

I totally have the sources now to do PMR full-time. Personally, I do think though PMR takes just as much time as portioning/mixing/bagging ground, and I think since I'd buy meats on BOGO they would take up freezer space also. I do like PMR's dental benefits, so what I do is give the cats a snack of strips of muscle meat/neck bones/wing tips once a day sprinkled with freeze-dried raw. 

And then there are those days where I just forget to defrost the night before or decide to feed an egg yolk. That's where freeze-dried raw comes to play. I use freeze-dried raw as a topper, treat, and as a meal. With my new kitten I've been giving him 1/4~1/2 ounce freeze-dried raw and an ounce of raw ground per meal. Since I rotate through at least five different kinds of proteins, the freeze-dried raw is the one thing that is consistent. I also used freeze-dried raw when I had to syringe feed my kitten. I took 2 tablespoons of KMR, a little water, and the freeze-dried raw and created a puree. As he got better, I stopped adding the KMR, and just made a puree using water and freeze-dried raw. When I used to go out for long hours at a time I would use the freeze-dried raw for my cat's puzzle box so she wouldn't be bored. The only downside is that some people think freeze-dried raw is not real raw, and that it is expensive. However, I think they have a place and I always keep a bag or two available.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

This is kind of funny, because, IMO, frankenprey takes ME much longer to prepare than the ground mix

  Maybe because when I find chuck roasts or pork roasts or the turkey thighs or whatever on sale, then I buy several packages, pop them in the freezer for at least 3 days, and then I want to get them portioned out for the "kids", but I find it easier to cut the meat up when it's still partially frozen, (plus the fact that I don't really want to defrost it and refreeze it again...just because

), so I find myself working away for several hours (it seems) on partially frozen meats, cutting them into strips and bagging them into approx. 6 oz portions, then getting them back into the freezer before the completely thaw out. 

However, once everything is cut and bagged, then, again IMO, it's a piece of cake.   I don't feed bones, I use Call of the Wild, so all I need to do is portion out the measurement of Call of the Wild into the food dish, add a little water to it (because my guy doesn't like it in powder form), weigh out however much meat I'm serving for that particular meal right into the bowl with the Call of the Wild, and serve.  I do a mix of meats, usually, because I always have more than one thawing...usually have chicken hearts as one of the meats, then boneless turkey thighs, or chuck roast, or pork or chicken breast, or sometimes 3 or 4 things, and may serve up one or two strips of all 4 in one meal!  Anyway, that may take me all of 1 minutes to day (if that)

Now, for preparing the ground stuff, THAT's a piece of cake. I have to totally defrost the ground mix of meat, liver, bones that I get either from Hare-today or the local co-op, (Although it's still really, REALLY cold

) then I add Alnutrin to it, mix it up like I'm making a meat loaf (with my hands), then I put it in BPH free stackable plastic dishes and freeze it.  The HT mix comes in a 5 lb chub, and the co-op mix comes in a 10 lb chub, so the most time consuming part of this process is filling up the plastic dishes, which really doesn't take very long.  Then when I serve that up, once it's defrosted, I add in probiotics to the whole plastic dish, along with digestive enzymes, then set the food dish right on the scale and spoon the desired amount of food into the food dish.  Easy Peasy all the way around. 

But I still wish everyone ate the Frankenprey, because since I don't have a grinder I wouldn't have to rely on buying the meats from someone else, I could just get it myself at the grocery store or wherever, AND I just love watching them chew and think it's so good for their teeth, even though mine aren't even chewing on bone yet. 

 

[ldg]

Here is a sample menu of someone that feeds prey model raw, also known as frankenprey: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/My-Feeding-Schedule.pdf

Please note that in this menu, "turkey leg," means turkey thigh, not the bone. The only bones fed (in this menu) are rabbit breast with ribs, and chicken breast with ribs or wing bones. When it comes to whole, fresh bones for cats, think "mouse." Small. Cornish hen, parts of rabbits, quail.. and the smaller bones from chicken. Some people feed the necks, but many cats need to work up to that kind of jaw strength.