Spaska never learned how to interact without constantly biting

Joe_Danger1337

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I'd like to think I'm an experienced cat owner and when we found poor Spaska at barely 3 weeks old, maybe less she was on the verge of death.
She quickly sprung back and proved to be the most difficult, mischievous kitten I've ever owned, so much so that I simply had to stop working for almost the first 6 months of her life so I could keep her entertained as she'd harass the other cats and be incredibly active, she needed 6 hours of actual active playtime per day in order to not utterly destroy the other cats.

She was never aggressive tho, just extremely playful.
I made sure that form the very beginning she learns that hands re not play things, I did everything right as far as teaching her not to use her claws on me and not to bite. She quickly took to not using claws, but even a year and a half later, she simply can not stop biting.
As soon as you touch her, her first interaction is to bite, it's gentle but her teeth and bite are much stronger than that of a persian which I'm used to and you legit can't even pick her up without her trying to bite all while showing no aggression in the process.

She shows affection through biting, interacts through biting, everything really.
Casper, my big white persian took her under his wing when she was little but he never taught her not to bite, so to this day she bites him all the time and he just calmly wobbles away where as the girls hiss at her or in Mila's case throw a hissy screamy fit.

They all get along well in general, but Spaska's biting is a rather big annoyance.
It's one thing for a cat to bite out of the blue when overstimulated/overwhelemed and another to do this as soon as you touch her.
She is loving, affectionate, she doesn't leave our side and genuinely enjoys our family both the cats and people.
We've gotten used to her biting habits and know how to interact with her.

Interestingly enough, when she is scared or confused she doesn't bite, like at the vets or when a new person comes into the house, when the vacuum is on and so on. So the vets are often like "see? she doesn't bite, she is docile" yeah because you're a stranger, she bites from affection.
Also due to COVID and us still not gathering in closed spaces back in 2021 when we found her, she hasn't been properly socialized with people outside the family unlike my persians so she avoids guests now, also due to being scared of them she never bites around guests lol

I've deducted that she has single kitten syndrome I could be wrong.
She calmed down a great deal after she turned one year, she is relatively calm now in terms of her behavior tho she is still far more active than any cat I've ever owned, but her biting habits haven't changed a bit, we're just used to them.

IMG_2440LR.jpg

She is aggressive when playing, but not the hissing growling towards the other cats kind of aggressive.

for example NEVER give her a stuffed animal to play fight with because as soon as she is done play fighting with a stuffed toy, she instantly goes for the nearest cat and grabs them by the neck, pins them down and presses very hard on the cat's neck immobilizing them completely.
She is small, but heavier than the persians now, Casper is 300g heavier than her I believe and he is the biggest, so it's very easy for her to completely dominate all 3, even Casper because she is much stronger than he is.
Fortunately if they hiss at her she backs down, but she can be dangers in that she has zero control of her bite strength and she did make Mila, the mom Persian faint twice back in 2021 by grabbing her by the neck and biting too hard and holding onto her for too long.
 

Alldara

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Single kitten syndrome is when they grow up without other cats. Some cats are bitey.

You should make a high "eep" sound when she bites you. It lets her know it hurts (even if it doesn't). Cats nibble on one another when they groom as well so that's part of affection biting.


Personally, I would give her the time to wrestle with a wrestle toy. She NEEDS to get that energy out. But you also need to keep your other cats from being bullied so I'd recommend doing this as a play session with her in a room with a closed door and no other cats. Keep this as part of her play and not the full play session.

Every No needs a Yes. So using this method you can train her that the stuffy if a yes and other beings are no. But, you could use something not animal shaped like a kicker toy or a woolen dryer ball.

She might benefit from chew toys for cats. Another poster and I had a good discussion on it here: Can anyone recommend a good chew toy for a cat?
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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Yeah single kitten syndrome can also occur if a kitten is raised with adult cats who don't train it properly to not bite and stuff, a kitten needs other kittens its age for that.
I know how to train a cat not to bite, but it's just this one never took to it well, she sometimes lets go sometimes she forgets herself. She still comes up to you, snuggles up, lets you pet her head, ears, whiskers, she purrs a lot and is a very loving, affectionate cat.
She has chew toys, she has her fuzzy worm thing she plays with a lot and also likes wrestling with some ball toys and stuff, this never causes aggression towards the other cats. She runs around, catches balls, plays with lots of stuff. but if you give her a toy that resembles a living being complete with a head and a neck and everything she is after the nearest cat within the first second after she is done wrestling with the toy.
Keeping the door closed isn't an option, she has separation anxiety and as soon as a door closes and she panics and claws at the door ignoring toys and everything else. I think she carries a lot from when she was a lost as a kitten.

I'm glad that when she isn't acting up, the other cats are fine with her, they walk slowly around her as to not trigger her impulse to jump on them, mainly the girls, but they also have no problems eating right next to her, turning their backs to her, sleeping with her in the room and so on. Mila,has tried to groom her many times but Spaska uses her front paws a lot to interact, claws retracted so this bothers Mila :) for example when Mila grooms her, atter a while Spaska gently touches her with her front paw as if to pet her, she does that to us humans too but the cats don't like it and Mila just walks away or gets upset with her leaving a confused Spaska.
 

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Alldara

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Yeah single kitten syndrome can also occur if a kitten is raised with adult cats who don't train it properly to not bite and stuff, a kitten needs other kittens its age for that.
I know how to train a cat not to bite, but it's just this one never took to it well, she sometimes lets go sometimes she forgets herself. She still comes up to you, snuggles up, lets you pet her head, ears, whiskers, she purrs a lot and is a very loving, affectionate cat.
She has chew toys, she has her fuzzy worm thing she plays with a lot and also likes wrestling with some ball toys and stuff, this never causes aggression towards the other cats. She runs around, catches balls, plays with lots of stuff. but if you give her a toy that resembles a living being complete with a head and a neck and everything she is after the nearest cat within the first second after she is done wrestling with the toy.
Keeping the door closed isn't an option, she has separation anxiety and as soon as a door closes and she panics and claws at the door ignoring toys and everything else. I think she carries a lot from when she was a lost as a kitten.

I'm glad that when she isn't acting up, the other cats are fine with her, they walk slowly around her as to not trigger her impulse to jump on them, mainly the girls, but they also have no problems eating right next to her, turning their backs to her, sleeping with her in the room and so on. Mila,has tried to groom her many times but Spaska uses her front paws a lot to interact, claws retracted so this bothers Mila :) for example when Mila grooms her, atter a while Spaska gently touches her with her front paw as if to pet her, she does that to us humans too but the cats don't like it and Mila just walks away or gets upset with her leaving a confused Spaska.
Cats can have behavioural issues without it being "single kitten syndrome". Just like symptoms of human things cross over diagnosises.

Anyway, whatever it is if you are looking for advice, feel free to keep reading..if you are just looking to tell your cat's story please disregard my post.

If a cat's only time in a closed room is for negative experiences and separation, then of course they dont like it at first. It's up to us to teach them that it's okay, slowly and over time.

Like if they only experience a closed door at the vets office. Not only will the office stress them, but the closed door will too! They're never going to like always being shut in. Sometimes they'll want out anyway.

You can start with a minute or two of closed door. Offer a very high reward treat. Sit near the door with your cat. Give the treat (she might not eat it) and then after a few minutes open the door a crack. I used Churu for this, I really needed the boys in the room where I was working with a closed door while work was done in the basement. The workers needed to carry heavy things and leave the door open.
Feliway and cat music and lots of practice means they do very well there now and we often spend time playing on the bed with door open and door closed.

It's important to us that our cats get that one-on-one play time to really reduce energy and not have the stress of being interrupted by another cat. I also want to keep building their positive view of one another with no resentment or jealousy.

I can take a LONG time to train a cat. But it is mostly doable.
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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She has definitely gotten better with closed doors over the past few months, I do all that you suggested minus the Feliway stuff, we don't have that here.
I think given her situation she's made tremendous progress.
I will try giving her a toy to wrestle with while she is on her own without the other cats around, it's a small apartment but it can be done for a short while and see if she takes to it better now and as I did before I'll wait for her to let off steam before letting the other cats in and hope she doesn't jump the first one she sees lol

This one is a very strange cat
in my experience she should've stopped biting like this by now but as one of my vets said she is probably going to interact like that for life, she reduced it a great deal of course over the past year and a half so I hope it goes down even more in the future.
 

Alldara

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Progress can be slow, especially with behaviour modification.

The key is to find the satisfaction they get from biting and chanel that in to something else. Is it too much energy? Too much stimulation? Not enough stimulation? Nervous energy? Communication frustration? So many possibilities.

Magnus chewed a lot on things and he's still a chewer but he's not a biter. (He does rub his teeth on me so that's weird, like a cheek rub but with open mouth.) Cardboard is great because he gets a satisfying 'pop' as his teeth sink in. He loves tearing up craft paper, but we have to watch that he doesn't eat it. Giving lots of outlets for his destructive nature helps him to get that energy out in a positive way.

I use the woolen dryer ball to really wrestle with him (I also use a colourful oven mitt that's different from our kitchen ones). He needs me to move it and wriggle it around to get that satisfaction of wrestling something and winning. As he grabs to the oven mitt, I can slide my hand out and then grab it in various spots and wiggle it to keep him entertained.

I use a specific sound to intiate play. Everyone in the home always uses this sound during play. It's something we we taught by a rat rescue to do with our pet rats and honestly it works very well with cats. So if I 'eep!' and stop because he gets me by mistake or otherwise, he knows it's serious.

Calcifer doesn't wrestle. He prefers a dart over and boop method of play. We hide behind the couch and peek at him or something and then he runs over and bops us and then runs away. The couch is good because we can peek from many sides.

Magnus prefers hide and seek chase. He will hide after and then you must chase him and make the play sound at him while tickling him. He will fight whatever scratcher he is sitting on while you do that. Next you should run and hide again. Or he might run and hide again. Either way, good fun he thinks.
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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yeah she loves cardboard a lot, I make especially smaller cardboard pieces
I also make balls of wet cardboard for her to chew on and play with, when they dry up she has a blast with them.
She also likes chewing on plastic, so she has that too.
I need to figure out the wrestling thing so it doesn't send her flying off to the nearest cat as soon as she is done tho.
I used to tie feathers on a string for her to chase, chew on and what not but she got bored of thos.
As far as the vets have seen there are no dental issues and she shows no frustration when doing this just genuine playfulness.
 

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Have you considered clicker training? Also, would she use a cat wheel to work off some of that energy?

Do you live in an area where you could take her for walks in a harness and leash, again as with the clicker training, with the thought of engaging her mind?
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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I tried clicker training but I think im too dumb to do it right lol
I think she lets enough energy out, it's just biting is her response to everything, like if she is sleepy she will grab your arm in her mouth gently and gnaw on it or act like she is nursing, I don't allow that but I've let her keep at it just to see what happens.
Basically any interaction you have with her is through her mouth and front pawns(claws retracted unless she gets too excited to play)
She's never swiped to harm anybody or hissed at anybody.
It's like she doesn't know she can't use her bite for every lil thing so I'm trying to get her to learn that.

she has significantly less need to be overly active nowadays and a few play sessions of about 15 mins a day tire her out and her behavior is actually very good overall.
 

fionasmom

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There are a lot of videos and information on clicker training for cats; this is from Jackson Galaxy. It is not hard to master at all and you might want to give it a try again.

Cat wheels are more expensive than a clicker, but you might see if you think your cat would be interested in one.

clicker training for cats - Google Search
 

Margot Lane

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I think your vet might be right. My Zorro got his name for a reason, and visitors knew not to pet him. Now that he is an elderly statesman, he has totally turned into pudding, loves attention, laps, snuggling. You have to look past the wildcat she is now and see the inner mellow cat she will become, and reach out deeply to that. It will happen….with love and time. You have to love her, with no judgement, anyway. (Which clearly you do ❤). In my case Zorro was the runt, so had to fight for everything, until he realized he didn’t have to. Maybe something like that happened in her feral life.
 

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There are a lot of videos and information on clicker training for cats; this is from Jackson Galaxy. It is not hard to master at all and you might want to give it a try again.

Cat wheels are more expensive than a clicker, but you might see if you think your cat would be interested in one.

clicker training for cats - Google Search
Oh I love clicker training! Once you get it down, you can really teach a lot. I wouldn't even focus on the play biting at this point. When I start a new puppy or kitten with one, I click anything they do so they learn offering something new might earn a reward, and if it doesn't, keep trying and don't give up. I taught one of my dogs to do 6 agility weave poles in 10 days with this method and taught my tortie to sit pretty. My older male cat learned to sit pretty just by imitating what she was doing to earn that reward!
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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She is no doubt a very loving and affectionate, kind cat
it's only her playing method and bite strength that need work at this point.
The point of my topic wasn't to complain or ask for help, I just wanted to talk about how she has a hard time regulating her bite strength and how she uses her mouth/bite to do basic interaction without meaning to harm anybody.

As for clicker training, Spaska is very well behaved now outside the biting thing which generally isn't that big a deal I can't think of what I'd train her to do, plus wouldn't clicker training confuse the other cats?
 

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I just wanted to talk about how she has a hard time regulating her bite strength
I have a biter. She has gotten better over the years, but I doubt she will ever lose it completely. She also never scratches, ever. She is just extremely mouthy. She is capable of biting gently with love bites, but when she gets excited, she can latch on so hard she will leave me bruised. She seems confused after she has done it, and after all of the normal responses you are supposed to have- ouch! , etcetera. It’s like she just loses her mind for a minute. She also has a lovey, which she bites on, and she can be pretty mean with him. Lol She was an ONLY, just a litter of two I believe, and the other one died. They did put another kitten in her cage right before I adopted her, but I think it was too little too late at that point.
 
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Joe_Danger1337

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I have a biter. She has gotten better over the years, but I doubt she will ever lose it completely. She also never scratches, ever. She is just extremely mouthy. She is capable of biting gently with love bites, but when she gets excited, she can latch on so hard she will leave me bruised. She seems confused after she has done it, and after all of the normal responses you are supposed to have- ouch! , etcetera. It’s like she just loses her mind for a minute. She also has a lovey, which she bites on, and she can be pretty mean with him. Lol She was an ONLY, just a litter of two I believe, and the other one died. They did put another kitten in her cage right before I adopted her, but I think it was too little too late at that point.
Your sounds very similar to Spaska :)
This definitely seems to happen to kittens who are raised alone without other kittens their age, since they need a playmate and a littermate to teach them to regulate their bite. In Spaska's case it seems not long after she opened her eyes and started walking she had gotten herself lost, she was microscopic.
I've posted these pics before but just for comparison
This is Spaska on day one
IMG_3159.JPG Spaska_DayOneLR003.jpg Kasper_Spaska_DayOne001.JPG
IMG_3144.JPG

She was just then learning to eat solids and the only vet we found with kitty milk refused to sell it to us and goat milk we found but she didn't like it or something I can't remember what happened with the goat milk. She came with terrible diarhea and infection on her bum they couldn't even see if she was a boy or a girl for a while there.
Fortunately she pulled through :)

IMG_2228 (1).JPG IMG_1769.JPG
 

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You could always take a look at the video provided above and see what things there are regarding training, as well as how to manage it with other cats :). Engaging her interest and mind with specific interactions with you is always a good thing.

She also has a lovey,
What is a lovey?
 

lollie

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What is a lovey?
🤣
Well for my cat it is a small stuffed animal- a cat. I had it in her basket when I brought her home. She will wrestle and play with it and carry it around in her mouth. Bite it, and then lick it better. When I realized she liked it so much, I bought another one- nope. Put them side by side and she will sniff, and grab her lovey. It has been washed, but she still knows which is hers. I live in fear of something happening to it.
 
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