Socializing my feral Panda Bear - advice and encouragement?

[patiently]

Hi all! So, I'm a huge softie and when I noticed a feral hanging around my property a few weeks ago, I quickly started leaving food out for him... well, naturally I began to get attached, not least of which because he was a huge fluffy thing with an incredible 'singing voice' - though he was very shy of people, to the point of not letting us approach, we'd often hear him let out a string of high-pitched meows somewhere near our property. Here's a picture of him.

Screen Shot 2017-03-04 at 1.13.11 PM.png

• patiently
• Mar 18, 2017

Easy to see why I decided to call him Panda Bear!

Anyway, one thing led to another and I trapped him and got him neutered with the help of a very friendly local TNR volunteer. He seems fairly young, maybe a couple years at most (his teeth are PERFECTLY white), and they encouraged me to try and socialize him to some extent, and, even knowing it would be a bit of a long shot, I decided to give it a try. We have some brutal winters here, and I'd rather see this guy leading some kind of stable life indoors, rather than being at the mercy of the elements. Plus, I'm fond of the songbirds in my backyard...

Anyway, he's been neutered and is currently in a large dog crate loaned to me by the TNR volunteer, with a soft blanket, litter box, and an upturned plastic milk crate to shelter in. I have sheets covering the sides, though not the front entrance, although during the day I'll often peel up one of the other sides as well. I've had him for about a week now and have been following these guidelines: http://bestfriends.org/resources/socializing-cats-how-socialize-very-shy-or-fearful-cat. We're up to petting with the brush.

He's become less fearful. He will eat and groom in front of me. Sometimes he'll take chicken from my hand if I'm very slow and careful and get down really low (to the point of lying down as I reach in). Often he'll eat it if I drop or toss it. If I put in a stick or other, he usually doesn't hiss at it, but will sniff it (in the first couple of days he was totally non-responsive). An extended hand will usually get a hiss or even a swipe - I've miscalculated distances a couple of times and come away with a scratch while replacing dishes or trying to offer him chicken. He also had some URI after the surgery and one of his eyes has been leaking a lot of puss. He's on antibiotics, and will endure me cleaning out his eye with a sort of giant stick Q-tip that I made with paper towels. It was gummed shut yesterday, for example, but after about ten minutes of cleaning he was able to open it again. It's hard to know what's going on with him when he lets me do this stuff... he is usually quite still, and I hope he's not just frozen with terror. Sometimes he'll turn to face the wall of his tiny milk crate or do something else that seems to indicate he's not thrilled, and in that case I'll always back off.

In the last three days or so, now that he's become less fearful, he's taking to meowing plaintively at night, usually at least twice - sometimes I'll get out of bed, turn on a low light, and sit by him and quietly read to him to get him to stop. I'm not sure if it comforts him - perhaps it just makes him quiet down because he's a bit apprehensive. Today he started up meowing again, this time during the day. Basically it sounds like he's begging to get out... very sad. At the same time, I'd like to continue with the cage for at least another week to try and make more progress with socializing before letting him loose in the bedroom.

Ultimately, if he's miserable indoors and can't adjust to us, we'll set him free again, and build him a winter shelter. I'll keep up taking care of him outside and try and get a bell on him somehow to give the birds a bit more of a chance. But I'd also like to make this work - a neighbor who adopted ferals but let them roam lost them both to car accidents, and I'd rather Panda live a long life. I'd also like the chance to bond with him. I've got welding gloves coming today that will make things a little easier, I hope - I don't really have the confidence yet to escalate from the brush on a stick to the brush-with-touching phase in the guidelines with bare hands.

Basically, any guidance or advice would be so very welcome... it's hard to hear him meowing so plaintively, although he did do it outside sometimes too, and it's discouraging to feel like I'm making meaningful progress one hour but to have him hissing at me the next. Any ideas, or experiences... I am happy to answer whatever questions might help you get a better read on the situation, too. 

Thanks in advance!

 

[patiently]

Oh, I should also say I've had a Feliway plug-in right by his cage since day one.

Here are some more pics...

During one of his late-night meow-fests, this time including a thorough attempt to find a way out of the cage, which you can see in the pic. The messes he made doing this led me to order some clip-on bowls for his food and water.

unnamed-3.jpg

• patiently
• Mar 18, 2017

A nice one of him on top of his crate, black and white because the contrast made it easier to see his features:

unnamed-2.jpg

• patiently
• Mar 18, 2017

And him lying in a REALLY weird position, which I only saw him do just that one time. He was just chilling like that on his own in the room, having a kind of doze? Very funny and weird. You can see the eye at the worst that it's been here, before I had to patiently 'unglue' it.

unnamed-4.jpg

• patiently
• Mar 18, 2017

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

First off, welcome to TCS; you're in absolutely the right place. I'd urge you to read through this thread when time and convenience allow:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331208/meet-buggy

It might offer tips, encouragement and even a flash of humour at odd turns.

Cats (feral cats) are instinctual, not logical, the analogue to having only an on/off switch (fight or flight), and socialising them is the equivalent of wiring a dimmer switch between the two poles - presenting an option between fight and flight.  It can be an extensive and arduous process, though one which benefits both parties eventually, in a fashion which is unmatched.

When my last two ferals were obviously recalcitrant to becoming socialised, I broke down and built a shelter last year, and after sixteen months' time, they're nearly ready to come into the main house to meet their Family.  The key, in the end, is the same key to everything else in Life, really - patience overcomes most obstacles, and Love overcomes all (vide Virgil's Ecologues: "omnia vincit amor; et nos cedamus Amori...").

Persist, persevere, and ultimately, you'll have forged between you a bond of Friendship which even the hammer of Thor himself could not sunder.

.

 

[patiently]

@1CatOverTheLine  Thank you so much for the encouragement. I've read a bunch of that thread - it's lovely that the Bug has such a caring and attentive human in his life!

I'm hoping he'll warm up a little once his hormones subside. Not sure when that will be... I hear it can take as long as two or three weeks... Gross question, but might I be able to tell from the smell of his urine? When we first got him after the surgery, it was absolutely pungent - yuck. Now it is less strong but still pretty unpleasant. But it's hard to know what's normal there... unlike my house cat, Panda doesn't usually bother to kick litter over his urine in his box, though he's more fastidious with #2. 

I tried slowly offering some chicken with the gloves on and got a swat, which happily I was well-protected from. I then tried something similar, but dropping it in front of him when he didn't take it after a few seconds. (Very slow movements for all of this.) He ate it up with my hand still there.

People say true ferals don't meow, is that correct? This one meows a lot, in that sad squeaky way, and even did so outside sometimes with no people around - his little concerts. I'm hoping he was perhaps once socialized in some way and a friendlier side of him might emerge more quickly because of it, although perhaps that's unlikely since he was unneutered.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

It can take up to eight weeks for his testosterone level to be sufficiently reduced so as to no longer affect his emotional balance:

https://www.google.com/search?q="6+...he+hormones+to+subside+after+the+neutering.&*

As to ferals not vocalising, that's an observational error on the part of the writer(s).  I've had ferals who vocalised outside and inside as well, and a few who but seldom did in either case.  It seems that any time we make a generalised statement which begins, "all cats..." we end up being proven wrong in the space it takes to draw a single breath.  Their job is to keep us on our collective toes, I suspect.

.

 

[patiently]

Thank you! That's very good information.

How long can he live in the crate? Because he has been making concrete improvements step by tiny little step (with some backtracking), I'm reluctant to let him have the larger bedroom before he'll accept touch. But at the same time I don't know how I feel about more than two weeks in the crate if we're not at that point by then (one week from now)... and my partner very much hates the idea of him being in there for longer than that. But what if he won't get there until his hormone die down? 

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

My personal opinion is that he should be allowed out to explore his home, but it's strictly my opinion.  Crates are for transporting animals and nothing more.

.

 

[patiently]

Today he was all hisses and swipes when I changed his food et cetera. It really is a rollercoaster. 

 

What should I do when he meows up a storm and seems desperate to get out? Should I sit by him and talk gently - which usually breaks the tantrum, but I worry might do so by making him too anxious to go wild - or should I put ear plugs in and endure?

@1CatOverTheLine  I think I'll follow the advice I have to confine him for two weeks, unless he really seems increasingly inconsolable about it. My hope is that although it will be a little more stress now while he's desensitizing to humans, concentrating a lot of exposure into a short period of time will mean less stress once he has the bedroom, since we won't be as terrifying as we might otherwise be at that point. 

 

[patiently]

HELP!

Well, I thought I'd let him have free reign of the bedroom, since he'd been doing not too terribly in the crate, besides a lot of crying at night.

First, I underestimated what cat-proofing means. He knocked a picture down from the wall (how?!), climbed a window by the blinds (wow!) after ripping through the winter-proofing... He spent the whole night hurling himself violently at the windows trying to escape, crying just as much as before. 

Then, as a kicker, he peed on the mattress (which was on the floor) - I woke up noticing my leg was wet and yep, he'd let loose in several spots near the edge of the mattress. He did poop in his litter box. But... ugh. Luckily he wandered back into his crate after that, and I was able to lock him back inside with his litter and food. 

What do I do, guys? Is this hopeless?

My partner thinks we should just let him out. I don't know what to think, but I am certainly disheartened and overwhelmed. 

 

[msaimee]

I think you should allow him back outside, and provide him with a warm, heated shelter on your porch (there are lots of threads on this site about making or purchasing a shelter with a heated outdoor pad), and leave dry food out for him during the day in a bird-proof pet feeder (I can give you info on this), and provide him with canned food once a day when he appears so he can continue to bond with you. Male, adult feral cats are usually miserable being confined indoors against their will, and get extremely stressed when confined in a cage. It's simply not in their nature. Most female adult ferals and kittens of either gender can adjust to life indoors, but it's much more difficult for an adult male. If you let him back out, he will likely return to your property, if not the same day, then in a day or two, since you're his food source and you've bonded. And you've given him a great gift by getting him neutered! My only concern is his eye infection. How many more days of antibiotics does he have? Is it possible to get him to a vet to give him a Convenia (antibiotic) shot? Could you continue to give the antibiotics to him in some wet food if he's outside? That would be my only concern, and a reason to keep him indoors longer. I know some folks here will advise you to keep him caged in order to break him and socialize him, but I don't agree with breaking a feral cat's spirit--I feel a feral cat has the right to decide how to live his life. There are many adult feral cats who live happy lives outside with a caregiver. I would not force him back into a cage at this point.   

I've taken in four feral cats--and the one that I let back outside was an adult male feral, who went nuts, caterwauling and scaling walls and windows. The others were a male kitten and two female older kittens--and those ones never expressed the desire to return to life outdoors--never scaled walls or tried to break through a screen or window, or caterwauled. They wanted the safety, warmth, and endless food supply of indoors. The male feral wanted his independence and freedom. Each cat is different.  

 

[Shane Kent]

"I feel a feral cat has the right to decide how to live his life."

As much as I would like to believe that I can't help but feel there are times where we humans must decide for them. The two cats I have at work were feral. I know longer consider them feral, I have socialized them. They threw themselves at the window when I first brought them in. The cat I call Kitty spent days trying to get out the window and scratched her nose trying to get through a metal framed window. I felt bad forcing them to stay inside but there was no way I was putting them back outside. Rusty settled within a few weeks where Kitty was around two months. Kitty was so determined to get out she pulled a metal grate off the floor and went down the duct work.

When my vet found out where I had them they told me do not put them back outside where I am. I had no intention, I already knew there are far too many wild animals around.

I think the ability to put them back outside really depends on where outside is. I have two cats at my work place that is on the edge of the city of Ottawa in Canada. There are coyotes, fishers, fox, raccoons, skunks, porcupine, etc. Plenty of wildlife. There are lots of wild turkeys in the wood lots around my work and typically where there are wild turkeys there is a good chance there will be fishers. I have seen coyotes on the security cameras and one winter a fox tried to den in a material storage shelter. If you don't know what a fisher is, imagine a big nasty weasel. Fisher's are extremely vicious and they have no problem stalking and killing cats. The coyotes, fishers and fox are a huge concern to me. The fishers worry me the most.

http://www.natureindeed.com/PDFs/Fisher_Fact_Sheet.pdf

A domestic cat is not native to the Canadian wilderness. They don't stand a chance against some of the wild animals they are likely to run into sooner or later. I think it would be extremely cruel of me to put domestic cats outside to be a meal for a wild animal.

My two work cats have no desire to get out anymore. They lived outside last winter and don't seem to miss it at all. I let them roam the building. They know where the door to outside is and when I get here on the weekend they wait there for me to come in and have never attempted to go out.

 

[msaimee]

I agree that a lot depends on where "outside" is. I live in the suburbs of Western PA, where the only wildlife we have are raccoons and opossums. We rarely have temperatures below zero, and heated pet houses can provide adequate protection. In areas where there are a lot of Wildlife and frequent deep snow, the ideal would be to try to keep feral cats safe indoors, if possible. I also agree that there are times where we have to step in and do what is best for a cat even if they don't like it. But I also think there are cases in which a feral cat should be allowed to live its life Outdoors, with a human caregiver. Each case is different, and each cat is different, but realistically speaking, we can't rescue every feral cat and take them indoors. These decisions are hard, and sometimes heartwrenching. In the end we have to trust our instincts and try to read the soul of each cat.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Luckily he wandered back into his crate after that, and I was able to lock him back inside with his litter and food. 
What do I do, guys? Is this hopeless?

 
My personal opinion is that he should be allowed out to explore his home, but it's strictly my opinion.  Crates are for transporting animals and nothing more.

.

 

[patiently]

Thanks, guys.

The eye is looking a lot better but still leaky. I'd be able to keep up the antibiotics if we let him go, provided he returned back for his food. We didn't have long to bond before I trapped him - I was concerned about the weather so did it only a week or so after I began feeding. It goes without saying that if it comes to letting him go, I'll build him a shelter and continue to look after his food. It's disappointing if it comes to that. My neighbor lost both of her adopted ferals (who had outdoor privileges) to cars. And I'm really no fan of the effect feral cats have on songbird populations - I'm an avid birdwatcher. Plus he tolerated my grooming him with a cat brush on a stick while he was in his cage, and the amount of mats, ticks, and flea dirt I got off of him just broke my heart... guy was being eaten alive with that long fur.  

I just bought a tarp, so if I let him out in the room again, that should discourage him from peeing on the bed. I can also add another box with some litter to the room. @1CatOverTheLine, I don't feel safe letting him have access to more than the bedroom of my small apartment for now. Not only would I have to cat-proof the rest of the apartment for a hellion bent on escape (feasible, but very daunting), I have a domestic cat, and would want to slowly monitor their introductions.

My partner really wants to let him go. He points out I'm getting much less sleep, and that it's stressful to listen to him crying inconsolably. But... but... but... I'm so worried that this behavior will just calm down as soon as his hormones do (we're about 10 days post-neuter) and I'd so hate to have given up on him very shortly before that. Ugh, I feel awful about all of this.

I'm leaning towards letting him out in the room again today, with the tarp and extra litter box set up, but I'm really feeling worried about whether that's a sustainable status quo if he continues to be so loud and frantic. 

 

 

[msaimee]

I am glad that your giving it more time, especially since his eye is still leaking. Because if he took off and didn't return for several days, the eye could get infected more badly. I meant to add in my last post that if you do the him back outside, please don't put a collar with bells on it. Feral cats do need to hunt in order to survive, and in the event that he didn't return to your home for you to feed him, he could starve to death. Cats hunt birds, just like birds hunt worms, everything needs to eat to survive. I'm glad you're letting him out of the cage, he will likely be less stressed.

 

[patiently]

Thanks, @MsAimee. That's a good point and I won't try to put a bell on him. It's hard to reconcile my love for cats with my love for songbirds sometimes. 

 

[patiently]

I just let him out again with a second litter box, and I will put the tarp over the bed when I go to sleep in it tonight. He is sleeping in a little corner hide-out for the time being. Feeling much trepidation and dread.

 

[Shane Kent]

@patiently

My heart goes out to you. I wish I could offer you lots of advice but my situation was different than yours. My feral cats are at work and I had an empty office to socialize them in. I started feeding them outside when they were approximately 2 months old and trapped them at approximately 9 months old. I would have liked to work on them trusting me more before I trapped them but the male cat Rusty had URI and eye infection really bad so I had no choice. It didn't take long for the male cat Rusty to settle, I would say a few weeks. His sister was closer to two months. She actually went down the duct work and I had to remove a section of duct work to get her out. I felt really bad forcing them to stay inside but my post above explains why I had to stick with it. In addition to wild animals there are two big boom fork lifts, 5 ton, 4 ton, 3 ton and a 1 ton trucks. A bunch of pickup trucks. When fully loaded those trucks are not stopping fast which is just one more thing for me to lose sleep over.

I found socializing them to be a curve. Very steep and difficult at first but it levels off and becomes easier. And of course a little bit of one step forward and two steps back. I think if your heart is telling you to stick with it then you should stick with it. It is very frustrating at times but in the end it is well worth it. I sleep so much better at night knowing the cats are warm and safe inside the building I work at. However, I do realize it is more difficult with an older cat and you may never get the cat to stay indoors. I wish I could tell you it will work out well but cats are living creatures with personalities and they can't be predicted.

Kitty and Rusty outside.

kandr_beams.JPG

• Shane Kent
• Feb 27, 2017

I had to use a time lapse camera to get photos. I couldn't get anywhere near them for several months. When I tried to get close they would hide in the beams.

Kitty and Rusty at the door to their safe room.

angrybird_happycat.jpg

• Shane Kent
• Jun 30, 2016

After a approximately two months I would leave the door open so they could start roaming the upper floor of the building.

These two will be going to a proper home in a few weeks if all goes well. I will miss them dearly but they have become so affectionate I feel really bad leaving them at work when I go home. They need a proper home and I can't take them home because my cat Taz has serious stress issues. He is easily stressed out, I am hoping he improves with age.

 

[patiently]

@Shane Kent  They're lovely. Thanks for your encouragement and advice.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Please take a few minutes to read through this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331208/meet-buggy

It might provide a lot of help right now.

.