Slippery Elm Bark, Wet food, Managing Constipation

[oneandahalfcats]

 
One, the girls get probiotics.  It seems to work for Josie, but is immune to Dory's super constipation powers.

LOL .. Super constipation powers! 

Glad to hear that the probiotics are working for Josie at least.

 

[marc999]

I used slippery elm bark powder for ~ 1 week / twice a day. I made a syrup that I mixed into his canned wet food.  His poop schedule returned to normal.

I also give probiotics once per day.  A Vcap that I divide into 3 days (30 billion CFU Vcaps). Makes it quite economical. 

I swear his poop stink went down by 90%.  It's worth it for that alone.  

 

[abbyntim]

Everyone's updates have inspired me to add an update, too, even though I am very new to this thread.

I am continuing Tim with the Nature's Variety Instinct LID for now. I'm a little concerned about the clay, as well as the higher fiber and carbohydrates compared with what he was previously eating (Wellness grain-free canned). I cautiously believe his constipation was due to dehydration, as he was on a grain-free dry food diet previously. But I am continuing to monitor his box habits closely and he has bowel movements daily, sometimes twice. Based on what I can see, things seem to be moving fine.

Tim has other issues, too, which makes it hard to find an appropriate food. He developed crystals after switching to wet food. Totally opposite of what you would expect, so we're avoiding fish to see if that helps. I also suspect sensitivity to chicken, likely from overfeeding, and I'm avoiding carrageenan. All these restrictions really limit our options. NVI LID avoids all of these items, so I'm mixing in homemade bone broth to add moisture and hopefully keep everything moving. Plus, I am picking the whole peas (fiber and carbs) out of the food before I serve it.

Tim has always tolerated plain greek yogurt, so he gets a small dab most days. That is his current form of probiotic, though I may consider something more comprehensive and nondairy. I am trying not to mess with things too much unless I have to. I am keeping the SEB in mind in case he backs up, but I really hope switching to canned food will resolve Tim's constipation. Now I just have to figure out the crystals, barfing, and athsma (all new, since switching to canned, which is why I am eliminating fish and chicken, and carrageenan forever).

Because Tim is doing well on NVI LID but I'm a little nervous about it, we are planning to mix in some other canned brands of the same proteins to see how he does. We will try Hounds & Gatos lamb and beef, Party Animal duck and turkey, and Pure Vida turkey and beef. We'll see how it goes. Once more time has passed and it seems his GI tract is in better shape, I may introduce raw. I just purchased Rad Cat turkey and lamb today, but those will stay in the freezer until he seems ready.

It is really great to read this forum and know I'm not alone. And to share experiences. Super helpful - thank you!

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Everyone's updates have inspired me to add an update, too, even though I am very new to this thread.

I am continuing Tim with the Nature's Variety Instinct LID for now. I'm a little concerned about the clay, as well as the higher fiber and carbohydrates compared with what he was previously eating (Wellness grain-free canned). I cautiously believe his constipation was due to dehydration, as he was on a grain-free dry food diet previously. But I am continuing to monitor his box habits closely and he has bowel movements daily, sometimes twice. Based on what I can see, things seem to be moving fine.

Tim has other issues, too, which makes it hard to find an appropriate food. He developed crystals after switching to wet food. Totally opposite of what you would expect, so we're avoiding fish to see if that helps. I also suspect sensitivity to chicken, likely from overfeeding, and I'm avoiding carrageenan. All these restrictions really limit our options. NVI LID avoids all of these items, so I'm mixing in homemade bone broth to add moisture and hopefully keep everything moving. Plus, I am picking the whole peas (fiber and carbs) out of the food before I serve it.

Tim has always tolerated plain greek yogurt, so he gets a small dab most days. That is his current form of probiotic, though I may consider something more comprehensive and nondairy. I am trying not to mess with things too much unless I have to. I am keeping the SEB in mind in case he backs up, but I really hope switching to canned food will resolve Tim's constipation. Now I just have to figure out the crystals, barfing, and athsma (all new, since switching to canned, which is why I am eliminating fish and chicken, and carrageenan forever).

Because Tim is doing well on NVI LID but I'm a little nervous about it, we are planning to mix in some other canned brands of the same proteins to see how he does. We will try Hounds & Gatos lamb and beef, Party Animal duck and turkey, and Pure Vida turkey and beef. We'll see how it goes. Once more time has passed and it seems his GI tract is in better shape, I may introduce raw. I just purchased Rad Cat turkey and lamb today, but those will stay in the freezer until he seems ready.

It is really great to read this forum and know I'm not alone. And to share experiences. Super helpful - thank you!

Thanks for sharing AbbyNTim! ... Glad to hear that Tim is having regular BMs, and sometimes twice a day. That is REALLY awesome!

It is quite a strange phenomenon when cats develop crystals while on wet food as wet is at least 70% water or better of the content. The only thing that comes to mind as you've pointed out, is if the food contained fish or was too high in ash and magnesium which can all be culprits for UTIs in cats, particularly males. In addition, fish can trigger allergies due to the protein 'histamine' in fish. Typically it is dry food that contains a lot Ash but some wet foods can contain high levels as well. I believe you will want to choose a canned that is 3% or less for Ash content. Sometimes this mineral is listed, and sometimes not unfortunately. If you are wondering about the Ash content of a given food, one of the members here will likely be able to tell you, or you can always try and contact the company.

Here is a link to Dr. Pierson's page (at catinfo.org), about Feline Urinary Tract Health : http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth.  Lots of really good information here, which touches on the connection between hydration, feeding kibble diets, and urinary tract health.

If you are looking for other good grain-free/carageenan-free canned foods, the GO Brand by Petcurean that I mentioned above would be another option.  

Its really smart that you are doing things one at a time, to see what works and track progress, but also very wise in employing the 'if it ain't broke, it doesn't need fixing' approach. Its good to get things sorted out before moving on to something new. I would like to go to some form of raw at some point as well, but need to totally eliminate the dry first. We are actually almost there. I noticed that Max has been leaving some of the dry food behind when I serve this. I think he much prefers more of the wet that he has been getting.

We are almost finished with the current bag, and so I think we are at the jumping off point from all wet and no more dry, at least where Max is concerned.

Please do keep us posted on Tim's progress, especially as you introduce new foods and are finding some that work better than others. I will be quite interested to hear how he does on the Rad Cat, when you are ready to start introducing this.

 

 

[abbyntim]

 I would like to go to some form of raw at some point as well, but need to totally eliminate the dry first. We are actually almost there. I noticed that Max has been leaving some of the dry food behind when I serve this. I think he much prefers more of the wet that he has been getting.

We are almost finished with the current bag, and so I think we are at the jumping off point from all wet and no more dry, at least where Max is concerned.

Glad to hear that Max seems to prefer the wet over the dry. It can be tough to switch, but well worth the effort. Our female, Abby, was easy to switch. In fact, I think she said "about time!", but Tim was definitely addicted to dry and tough to switch. Once I got him eating enough wet, I gave away all the dry so no one would be tempted. I had always fed them a mix of wet and dry, but saw a big difference in hydration and stool quality once we went all wet. I am hoping you see similar significant improvements with Max once the dry is completely out of his system.

 It is quite a strange phenomenon when cats develop crystals while on wet food as wet is at least 70% water or better of the content.
If you are looking for other good grain-free/carageenan-free canned foods, the GO Brand by Petcurean that I mentioned above would be another option.  

I was very frustrated when Tim developed crystals after switching to wet food. I read every word of Lynn Pierson's site and that is where I learned about fish and minerals. The fish might have been a problem, as he was consuming canned food with fish almost daily. But the ash content, at 1.95%, wasn't terribly high. I had also read about other male cats developing crystals while eating this particular food, so I have learned a lesson about rotating brands.

Speaking of brands, I have seen the GO! brand at the pet supply where I purchase NVI LID. I've read every canned cat food label in that store, and the GO! contains either chicken or fish, both of which I am eliminating right now. I am also trying to keep the carbs to a single source per meal/food. But I plan to try GO! when I introduce chicken in April. Thanks for the tip - the FIT + FREE Grain Free Chicken, Turkey + Duck Pâté looks like a good option when we try chicken.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Glad to hear that Max seems to prefer the wet over the dry. It can be tough to switch, but well worth the effort. Our female, Abby, was easy to switch. In fact, I think she said "about time!", but Tim was definitely addicted to dry and tough to switch. Once I got him eating enough wet, I gave away all the dry so no one would be tempted. I had always fed them a mix of wet and dry, but saw a big difference in hydration and stool quality once we went all wet. I am hoping you see similar significant improvements with Max once the dry is completely out of his system.

I was very frustrated when Tim developed crystals after switching to wet food. I read every word of Lynn Pierson's site and that is where I learned about fish and minerals. The fish might have been a problem, as he was consuming canned food with fish almost daily. But the ash content, at 1.95%, wasn't terribly high. I had also read about other male cats developing crystals while eating this particular food, so I have learned a lesson about rotating brands.

Speaking of brands, I have seen the GO! brand at the pet supply where I purchase NVI LID. I've read every canned cat food label in that store, and the GO! contains either chicken or fish, both of which I am eliminating right now. I am also trying to keep the carbs to a single source per meal/food. But I plan to try GO! when I introduce chicken in April. Thanks for the tip - the FIT + FREE Grain Free Chicken, Turkey + Duck Pâté looks like a good option when we try chicken.

The GO Brand does have quite a few varieties that contain chicken and/or fish for sure, but there is one that is completely Duck which I currently have Max on.  Duck Pate : http://www.petcurean.com/for-cats/go/sensitivity-and-shine-grain-free-duck-pate

Yes, I definitely think the dry food will not be missed 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Its been a couple of months since I updated this thread, but then things have been going so well that there has not been much to report, other than to say that Max continues to do REALLY well. Oh, and I stopped giving Max SEB back in February!

Since February, Max, Maggie and Thomas have all been getting probiotics each day. Max has been having bowel movements EVERY day, with the very occasional exception.

I am amazed when I looked back at what Max has been through, the things we tried, including Cisapride, to find that all he needed was to get his digestion back on track? Its been an experience and confirmation for me that it is possible to correct and prevent constipation through holistic measures. I truly believe that with perseverence, faith, patience and willingness to get to the root of the cause of constipation, that most if not all, situations can be rectified.

While I am thankful to SEB for literally helping us turn the page when it comes to Max's constipation, he obviously doesn't need to be on this going forward. I intend to keep this handy however, as I have learned that not only is it good for diarrhea and constipation, but is also effective as a compress to heal superficial wounds and scrapes. Max gets rodent ulcer flares from time to time which I have started treating with SEB, and the results are very positive. SEB doesn't cause irritation and there are no concerns if a cat happens to lick SEB. 

 

[stephenq]

Yay!!!

 

[abbyntim]

This is a fantastic update - thank you for sharing! And it give me hope for my guy.

 

[abbyntim]

 
Since February, Max, Maggie and Thomas have all been getting probiotics each day. Max has been having bowel movements EVERY day, with the very occasional exception.

I've been thinking a little more about this update and Max. I am very happy for all of you! This is wonderful!

I remember reading that Max was going every other day, and now he's going every day with a rare exception. What do you think made the difference? For the past week, Tim has being going mostly every 36 hours, though he did go 24 hours between Sunday morning and yesterday morning. During this time, I reduced his food because he can stand to lose a little weight and also stopped laxatone. The holistic vet isn't worried right now, but I selfishly would like him back on his 24 hour schedule, at least until we are able to transition to raw, and I'm wondering how you achieved that with Max. Or, alternatively, maybe this is Tim's new normal and I need to adapt.

Thanks!

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
I've been thinking a little more about this update and Max. I am very happy for all of you! This is wonderful!

I remember reading that Max was going every other day, and now he's going every day with a rare exception. What do you think made the difference? For the past week, Tim has being going mostly every 36 hours, though he did go 24 hours between Sunday morning and yesterday morning. During this time, I reduced his food because he can stand to lose a little weight and also stopped laxatone. The holistic vet isn't worried right now, but I selfishly would like him back on his 24 hour schedule, at least until we are able to transition to raw, and I'm wondering how you achieved that with Max. Or, alternatively, maybe this is Tim's new normal and I need to adapt.

Thanks!

HI there, and thanks!

I think one of the biggest impacts for Max has been the switch to and increase in wet food, the probiotics and water that I have been adding to his meal. With the increase of wet food and the decrease in dry, his water intake isn't what it used to be. This was to be expected, but I want to make sure he gets enough. Everyone still gets a bit of dry kibble (1/4 cup) in the form of the NV Rabbit, but the majority of food is wet canned NV.

Initially when I started the probiotics, I overlapped with the SEB to start and then later stopped the SEB altogether. I wasn't seeing much of a change at first, but over time, the quality and frequency of Max's BMs has been steadily improving.
He's been going everyday for a good month or so. I actually can't remember the last time he went more than 24 hours without a BM. I attribute the steady improvement to the probiotics doing the work of cleaning Max out. I feel very strongly that
Max's problem all along, has been one of poor digestion, made worse by different dry foods.

Something else happened that I had completely forgotten about and that is, we think Max vomited a huge amount of hair one night. Like two cigar sized wads!

  We are pretty much 99.9% sure it was him, as the wads were definitely too big to have come from Maggie, and the color wasn't right for this to have come from Thomas. Max has NEVER vomited hairballs before and so I was actually delighted to see this as I had been wondering and worrying some as to whether Max had been carrying around some hair and how this was going to manifest one day. Not only is Max a prolific groomer of himself, he also engages in mutual grooming with Thomas on a regular basis. The very strange thing is that two different vets checked Max for hairballs and said they couldn't feel anything

To counteract any potential issues with this, Max has been getting Coconut Oil every week. Both Max and Thomas get Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil which is good for a whole bunch of things : boosting immunity, hairball control, skin conditions, allergies to name just a few of the main benefits.

It could be that what you are seeing with Tim, IS his normal output. I don't recall if you still have Tim on probiotics, but if you aren't, I would strongly suggest to start this again. It takes time to see benefits and so you need to give the probiotics at least a good month or so. Even if this doesn't improve the BM frequency, probiotics are just a powerhouse when it comes to keeping the gut in good shape, and could be beneficial once you start the raw or home-cooked diet. Both my husband and I take the same probiotics as the cats get, and feel great as the result.

 

[abbyntim]

Thanks for the detailed response! Tim currently eats all canned food. I know he's dying for dry, but I'm too scared right now to give him any. I add homemade turkey broth to his morning meal and water to his evening meal. This is a holdover from when I thought he might have urinary crystals, but the cats aren't complaining and they both checked out very well with the holistic vet so I am continuing this. Tim still gets a daily probiotic and I've been giving a half-dose to Abby.  New changes include experimenting with a tiny bit of psyllium in an effort to keep his stools soft and move things along but not add bulk, the thought of which terrifies me. I also stopped the laxatone cold-turkey a little over a week ago (coincidence?). Finally, we are feeding him a bit less because he can stand to lose a couple of pounds.

I am ashamed to admit that my husband and I weren't super diligent about monitoring the litter box. It wasn't until Tim was at the emergency vet and they were trying to get him to have a bowel movement that we realized we thought the other was scooping most of the poop. Because we still take turns scooping, we now share with each other our findings. Additionally, I am now recording number of pieces, as well as size and texture of each piece, for both cats. Long way of saying, I don't know what's normal for Tim. And given all of his other problems, most resolved, maybe he's never experienced normal and we'll all be discovering his new normal together.  Maybe what's normal for him is when he's got a certain amount of waste, which could be 24 or 36 hours, depending.

There is some evidence to suggest he's going to be fine without cisapride: I don't have a lot of objective data on size, but there is no significant difference between his 24-hour stretches and his 36-hour stretches based on what I do have. And my subjective notes suggest the same. When he goes, he is pretty quick in and out after a lot of digging and scratching; there is no sign of straining or difficulty. The trips to the box without doing anything have stopped (think it was tummy upset). A couple of recent 24-hour deposits were a bit on the soft side, suggesting portions moved through him a little too quickly; these were deposits following a cisapride dose.

And so far, I don't see any evidence that he won't be fine without cisapride, only my fears. And my own discomfort that he seems to have stopped going every 24 hours. He took a 5mg cisapride capsule every day for nine months, which I now see kept him so regular. We are almost two months into the weaning process and hope to be complete in a few weeks. Today we took another step and skipped a third day. How this all goes will depend on him.

 

[ghibli]

What is it about these cats and their fondness for dry kibble? My big boy Ghibli would love to eat dry exclusively, and will only eat wet food in small quantities at a time (even at the best of times). He's super picky about texture and temperature (wish more canned food came in optional smaller 'fancy feast' portions!) and doesn't eat that much for his 23 pound size. It's been a struggle to get him to eat as we tinker with his diet for megacolon.

How do y'all deal with tracking the litter action and eating habits with multiple cats? I will forever feel guilty because we lost our other cat Rousseau a few years ago- we missed any warning signs from him since Gibli was just being diagnosed as diabetic and we were concentrating on all the instructions and new routines, and meanwhile Rousseau's kidneys failed. He was 14, and he had a good last adventure since we took him on vacation to PEI with us and he got to chase butterflies. I would love to add another cat to our family someday (once we get Ghibli's newly diagnosed and worrisome megacolon figured out). How are you able to keep track of all these changes in eating and litter habits? Copious notes? Become your own in-house Dian Fossey?

 

[denice]

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/transit...-to-a-new-type-of-food-canned-raw-or-homemade   will help with the transition.  Be patient it could take awhile.  Kitties are huge creatures of habit that is why it is difficult to switch them to another type of food.  Many companies don't play fair with their kibble either.  They spray it with animal digest which kitties love.  You can use a probiotic called Fortiflora that has animal digest in it to entice kitties to eat another food.  Just sprinkle some on the new food, sort of the same thing that the companies do with their kibble.  

If you get kitties on timed meals it is much easier to track each one's eating.  The litter box is more difficult, I really don't know how to do that one.  In my case I have two kitties, one with chronic health issues so if there are changes in the litter box I assume it's the chronically ill one.  That's really not good, there are no guarantees that the other one won't develop health issues.

 

[abbyntim]

How do y'all deal with tracking the litter action and eating habits with multiple cats?

Exactly what Denice said. Now that our cats are on timed eating, it's super easy to track eating habits. We used to let them free-feed kibble and we have no idea if Tim's eating habits changed leading up to his horrible constipation events. It was hard to shift them to timed eating and it took several months, but they've adjusted and it gives me great peace of mind to know exactly what and how much each cat eats.

Litter box habits are harder. I am trying to strike a balance between being aware of each cat's poop habits but without hovering too much. Right now, I am tending on the side of a "helicopter cat-mom". But through my increasingly detailed notes, I have learned that Abby and Tim have pretty different outputs. About two weeks ago, in addition to counting pieces, I pulled my scat ruler out of my day pack and now measure the pieces. The outputs vary in terms of both width (proxy for diameter) and total length. The two cats also bury things differently. Abby smooths things over and you can hardly tell she was there. Tim leaves a mountain of litter over his. But it was only through close observation over time that I can now pretty much tell who leaves what. Where I have trouble is when one cat goes in immediately after the other (despite having two litter boxes) and the pieces get mixed up; the sizes of the pieces aren't terribly different between the two cats, but Tim generally has more pieces. This happens but it is very rare.

Get to know Ghibli's habits, then it will be easier when you add a second cat. We were fearful we might miss something with Abby due to our intense focus on Tim, so early on in my note-taking, I started adding information about her, too. Glad I did, because I caught a mild bout of constipation that we resolved with a minor tweak to her diet and three tiny administrations of miralax. If I hadn't been watching so closely, I might have missed it.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

How are you able to keep track of all these changes in eating and litter habits? Copious notes? Become your own in-house Dian Fossey?

In a word, yes!

The best way to help you 'see' patterns of elimination, will be to keep detailed notes of everything from eating to drinking, to how much you are feeding, how often your kitty is using the litter box, how much is produced. No details are too insignificant if it can help you to figure out what is working, or what might be making things worse in terms of diet, what type of litter you use, any supplements that are introduced (including how much and when), and any medications that he is on that might contribute to constipation such as pain killers, antiobiotics, anxiety medication, etc.

One of the main reasons why cats prefer dry food is that it is denser than wet food, and higher in calories from the carb content, so cats tend to feel more satisfied. 'Some' kibble is sprayed with special flavoring, but not all. It can be challenging to switch from dry food to wet, but it can be done. You may have read that I started the switch from all dry to wet last October, and the transition has gone well.

I would refrain from the temptation to hover around your kitty when he is doing his business, especially if he is experiencing a dry spell, as this can add stress and anxiety and for the reason that cats need and deserve some privacy to do their business. There is always time to check the litter box once your kitty has gone.

 

PS: I am sorry to read that you lost your beloved Rousseau ... The trip to PEI sounds like it was a lovely time. I am originally from New Brunswick, Canada.

 

[abbyntim]

 
I would refrain from the tendency to hover around your kitty when he is doing his business, especially if he is experiencing a dry spell, as this can add stress and anxiety and for the reason that cats need and deserve some privacy to do their business. There is always time to check the litter box once your kitty has gone.

 

Totally agree with this. I was hovering around when we first started weaning Tim off cisapride and it was stressful for us both. Now I keep an eye on them around the house and remain alert when I see a cat going to or from our home office, where the litter boxes are kept. But now I don't follow them into the office, though I check fairly soon afterwards. If I happen to be in the office when they enter, I remain (I don't watch anymore, like I used to). One thing about my early observations and later detailed note-taking: I have a rough idea of each cat's schedule, and now am more comfortable leaving something in the box to inspect a little later. This morning, I didn't check Tim's deposit for nearly 30 minutes after he left it. So I'm still a bit of a helicopter cat-mom, but not nearly as bad as I was.

 

[tdonline]

I'm taking Dory to the vet this Saturday.  If I do everything to help her poop--she goes every five days.  If I don't do as much to help her poop--she goes every five days.  Sigh.

I'm a little worried the vet will recommend some special high fiber food as the next step.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
I'm taking Dory to the vet this Saturday.  If I do everything to help her poop--she goes every five days.  If I don't do as much to help her poop--she goes every five days.  Sigh.

I'm a little worried the vet will recommend some special high fiber food as the next step.

Hi there .. I was just thinking about your girls and you today, and wondering how things have been going

You know, while I wouldn't normally recommend this, I wonder if Dory could benefit from the RC Fiber food? Max was on this and it did produce soft, regular stools, but my concern was that the food contained things like corn, wheat and therefore not something that was providing much nutritional benefit. If this stuff can help to increase the BMs, it might be worth it to experiment a bit. This would certainly be far safer than going with something like cisapride. It would be important to also supplement with some good quality wet canned to ensure that they get the protein and moisture that she needs.

 

[tdonline]

If the vet pushes high fiber food...I guess I can give it a try.  I looked at the ingredients for RC Fiber Response dry food and it's pretty...underwhelming.  What is in RCFR that makes cats go?  I've tried fiber in Dory's wet food and it hasn't made any difference.  The fiber I've tried are pumpkin, cauliflower and grass.  Pumpkin used to help long ago when Dory's constipation was mild--like lasting two days.   It hasn't worked ever since her constipation became severe overnight.

My concern is that the fiber will enlarge her colon.  I'm assuming the special dietary foods will have a large amount of fiber to 'force the issue.'

I know cisapride has side effects--but I feel at this point, Dory needs something to increase the frequency of her deposits, but not necessarily the volume.  Miralax is keeping it soft so that's not an issue.  She doesn't seem to be in pain when she goes.  I feed her a wet diet with added water, so I don't think she's dehydrated.  I just need her to move away from the 5 day schedule.  Her sister, Josie, is going every other day.  So she has responded somewhat to all the things I'm doing.  But Dory just won't budge.  To give Dory some benefit of the doubt, Josie is more tolerant of coconut and fish oils, is more active and has been on half the dosage of prozac.  Which I think probably have some bearing on Josie's more robust BM schedule.

I have started weaning them off prozac.  They are dosed every 3rd day now instead of every other.  I started 2 weeks ago and it hasn't impacted their BM schedules.  I don't know if that means prozac isn't the issue or if it just takes a long time for the drug's influence to decrease.