Senior kitty being bullied by young kitty, advice?

brookesphynx

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I am at my wit's end, and I don't know why it didn't occur to me before now to ask all you knowledgeable people for some advice!

Here's a back story (sorry, it's long):
I adopted Helen almost a year ago. She's 8 1/2 years old and rescued from a traveling side-show that featured lots of exotic cats. (I call her my little circus clown
) When I got her, I already had Walter, a 2 year old boy. They took about 2 weeks to get along, mostly because Walter had never been around other cats before, so he hid and pouted. Helen took to him right away and after he got used to her, they became fast friends. They used to play for hours on end. You wouldn't know by the way she played that she was a "senior".

Skip ahead about 6 months, when I adopted Nelson and Mandy. They were a breeding pair that was dumped at the SPCA by a breeder who no longer wanted them. Mandy hid from me for 3 weeks before I could even touch her, Nelson was a love bug from the moment I opened his kennel door, but as a pair they were completely bonded and I wouldn't dream of separating them.

Nelson and Mandy stayed quarantined for 2 weeks before I slowly introduced them to Helen and Walter. Mandy was still very shy, and I never had any aggression problems with her. In fact, it took 3 solid months before Nelson and Walter could safely be left alone together because of the fighting, but I never had any problems with Mandy. Now, over the past couple of months, the boys are getting along and Mandy is really starting to come out of her shell. Unfortunately, she's become aggressive to Helen.

It's gotten so bad that Helen no longer plays, she just stays on her spot on the couch, where it's mostly safe. I say "mostly" safe, because Mandy will run up to her, completely unprovoked - sometimes even when Helen is sleeping - and start beating up on her. I'm afraid Helen is living in fear. She is stalked and attacked whenever she goes to the litter box, and has started peeing outside of the box so she can make a quick getaway. I've even seen Helen wait until Mandy is sleeping to get up & quietly wander over to the litter box. As soon as Mandy hears Helen in the litter, she runs over and stalks her. When I say litterbox, I have four of them, in all different places, hoping that one would be in a place that Helen would feel safe, but it doesn't help. I think I could line my entire house with litterboxes, and she'd still pee on the floor next to it. They are open, uncovered, all different sizes...When I see her wandering around, I can pick her up and put her in her box, and she'll immediately go in it. Then I praise her, and praise Mandy for letting her go in peace, but I can't do it every single time Helen has to pee. I'm afraid she's going to hold it and make herself sick.

The litter box problem isn't the only issue. Helen doesn't play anymore. She gets pounced every time she leaves her safe spot on the sofa. She used to be very friendly with the other cats, and especially with Walter - but now every time one of them comes near her she growls, ears go flat, hisses. When she's feeling energetic, she will swat at them. I miss watching her play for hours. She must be depressed.

As far as her health, I've had her checked by my vet. There's no underlying medical reason for her litter issues. She has a fantastic appetite- just about the only time she gets off the couch is to yell for food! Drinks normal amount of water.

When I am with her, she purrs and purrs, so she is capable still of being happy! She sleeps on my chest every night, and kisses my face until we both fall asleep. So, although she's clearly not 100% happy right now, I don't think she's at the point of no return. I am determined to fix this! I rescued her from a bad situation, and now I feel awful for the way Mandy is treating her. I've considered separating her, but, Sphynx are a breed who thrive on companionship. It would be cruel to isolate her. I just need help with curbing Mandy's aggression, getting peace, figuring out a way for these cats to coexist. I know there is hope, because Helen and Mandy sleep together, right next to each other, touching, every night.

Okay...sorry that was long. Here's what I'm doing now, without much success:
4 litterboxes
3 Feliway diffusers - 1 in the living room, the other 2 by the litter boxes
Feliway spray - sprayed all over the couch, to make her feel comfortable in her spot

• Right now I feed Helen away from the other 3 cats. In the same room, but up on a chair. Should I feed them all together? Would that help bring them all to the same "level"? I feed her separately because she's a slow eater and the other cats will steal her food. Maybe I should separate all of them, so it's not "Helen vs. the other 3"?

• Should I try play time with just Helen and Mandy together? I always play with the 4 of them, but have never tried just playing with the girls.

Any other suggestions??
 

littleraven7726

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Originally Posted by BrookeSphynx

Okay...sorry that was long. Here's what I'm doing now, without much success:
4 litterboxes
3 Feliway diffusers - 1 in the living room, the other 2 by the litter boxes
Feliway spray - sprayed all over the couch, to make her feel comfortable in her spot

• Right now I feed Helen away from the other 3 cats. In the same room, but up on a chair. Should I feed them all together? Would that help bring them all to the same "level"? I feed her separately because she's a slow eater and the other cats will steal her food. Maybe I should separate all of them, so it's not "Helen vs. the other 3"?

• Should I try play time with just Helen and Mandy together? I always play with the 4 of them, but have never tried just playing with the girls.

Any other suggestions??
We have a little of this going on, but not as bad as your situation. Nabu is going to be 13 yrs old this year, and Lola, our youngest is almost 2 yrs old. She loves to try and play with him but she's way bigger than he is.

What is your litter box layout? We have to have litter boxes in 2 locations at least. Which for us usually means most of them in one location, and 1 box in another room. This solved the litter box issues we had when they were all in 1 spot.

For feeding, my cats all have the spots that they like to eat at when I feed canned food. Nabu- on the counter, Lola- on the table, and Stimpy- on the floor (usually). Our kitchen is pretty big so this gives everyone enough space. I've tried 2 locations for dry food, but then they just gobble all the food in the new location and Nabu still has to go to the kitchen.


When Lola starts getting too exhuberant with Nabu, we try to throw toys to distract her. Which works 99.9% of the time.
She loves to chase the toys.
 

otto

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Oh dear, it breaks my heart reading this!

I had some trouble with Mazy and Ootay (rb 5/09) this way. Ultimately what I ended up doing was, anytime I saw Mazy stalking Ootay, or at first, even LOOKING at Ootay, Mazy was snatched up and put behind a closed door for a few minutes. (with a "NO Mazy")

I am not normally a fan of "time outs" for cats, because I think usually by the time you pick up the cat and get her to the Time Out spot she is no longer thinking about the "bad" behavior, but rather thinking about "what's this fun new game mommie is playing by picking me up."

It has to be quick, instant, for the cat the make the association. But I was desperate because I couldn't stand Ootay being scared in her own house.

My apartment is tiny, so I was able to scoop Mazy up and get her behind the bathroom door in one motion. You might want to try using some other kind of restraint, like a carrier or cage, so the consequence of Mandy stalking Helen is instant.

In addition, when I saw Mazy walk by Ootay and ignore her I praised her to the skies, with treats.

This training had some success, but it wasn't until Jennie came along that Mazy stopped harassing Ootay altogether. I'm not sure why the addition of Jennie changed things for Mazy in that way, but I knew it HAD changed, even when I wasn't home, because Ootay stopped hesitating and peeking around corners and over her shoulder with every move. How I HATED seeing that!
 

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First of all, take a deep breath! Remember, you kitty will pick up on your stress.

I had a very similar situation with Callie when we adopted Hannah. It took about 2 years for her to finally return to "normal" and now she's acting more kittenish that she did prior to Hannah!

Give Helen TONS of loves all by herself. I used to lay on the floor under the table with Callie and just pet her and tell her how much I loved her and what a good girl she was.

Stick up for Helen. Be her advocate. When you see the younger kitty bullying her, separate them using a bath towel to "herd" the bully away. Provide several 'safe places' for her.

Let her come around on her own timetable, but teach the younger kitty to be gentle and not to play too rough.

Have you had her to the vet lately for a full senior panel bloodwork to rule out anything going on medically? Also, she may be developing some arthritis which may make it more difficult for her to move around.
 
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brookesphynx

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Thank you all for your replies and kind words!

Originally Posted by littleraven7726

What is your litter box layout? We have to have litter boxes in 2 locations at least. Which for us usually means most of them in one location, and 1 box in another room. This solved the litter box issues we had when they were all in 1 spot.
Right now I've got 3 in one room and 1 in another room, but they are all in the same side of the house. I'll try moving one box to the opposite end of the house and see if that doesn't help.

Originally Posted by otto

My apartment is tiny, so I was able to scoop Mazy up and get her behind the bathroom door in one motion. You might want to try using some other kind of restraint, like a carrier or cage, so the consequence of Mandy stalking Helen is instant.

In addition, when I saw Mazy walk by Ootay and ignore her I praised her to the skies, with treats.

This training had some success, but it wasn't until Jennie came along that Mazy stopped harassing Ootay altogether. I'm not sure why the addition of Jennie changed things for Mazy in that way, but I knew it HAD changed, even when I wasn't home, because Ootay stopped hesitating and peeking around corners and over her shoulder with every move. How I HATED seeing that!
I'm glad you mentioned this! Like I said in my OP, it took 3 months before I could leave my two boys alone in the same room together. I used the same technique with Nelson - whenever he was aggressive, or had the "look", I would put him in a crate until the mood passed. In fact, Nelson became crate trained, and all I had to do was say his name in the right tone and he'd go running to his crate!
I'll pull the ol' crate out and try it with Mandy!

Originally Posted by stephanietx

First of all, take a deep breath! Remember, you kitty will pick up on your stress.

I had a very similar situation with Callie when we adopted Hannah. It took about 2 years for her to finally return to "normal" and now she's acting more kittenish that she did prior to Hannah!

Give Helen TONS of loves all by herself. I used to lay on the floor under the table with Callie and just pet her and tell her how much I loved her and what a good girl she was.

Stick up for Helen. Be her advocate. When you see the younger kitty bullying her, separate them using a bath towel to "herd" the bully away. Provide several 'safe places' for her.

Let her come around on her own timetable, but teach the younger kitty to be gentle and not to play too rough.

Have you had her to the vet lately for a full senior panel bloodwork to rule out anything going on medically? Also, she may be developing some arthritis which may make it more difficult for her to move around.
Wow, 2 years?! That gives me hope, even if there may be a long road ahead... Helen had a blood workup a few months ago (all good!) but the vet does think she has a bit of arthritis in her hips. She's not able to jump any higher than the bed and couch. The difficulty here is that the other cats can easily access any place she goes so she has nowhere to get away to. I don't know how to set up a safe area for her that the other cats won't just push her out of and steal for themselves. Any thoughts on providing 'safe places' for her?

Since I wrote my first post and had time to reflect about the situation all day, I did come home and pull out every interactive toy in the house - Undercover Mouse, Flingamastring and DaBird were all played with tonight. That seemed to help! Helen didn't play, but the other cats were more interested in toys than they were in beating up on her. So, I'm going to dedicate more play time each night than I have been. I'll approach this almost like a new-cat introduction and give more praise and rewards when there's no fighting. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, even if I have to bring in a behaviorist!
 

otto

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Regarding the arthritis, ask your vet about starting Helen on cosequin for cats. This will help her tremendously!
 

otto

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Regarding litter boxes: Mazy was barring Ootay from getting to the litter boxes, too. I had to put one up here (the litter boxes are downstairs in a utility corner) in my bathroom for her.

All the cats knew it was Ootay's litter box only and none ever used it except Ootay (she also knew it was for her) except sometimes...you guessed it Mazy cat! I tried to discourage Mazy from using it, but I didn't want to make too big a deal out of it given her FLUTD.
 
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brookesphynx

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Originally Posted by otto

Regarding litter boxes: Mazy was barring Ootay from getting to the litter boxes, too. I had to put one up here (the litter boxes are downstairs in a utility corner) in my bathroom for her.

All the cats knew it was Ootay's litter box only and none ever used it except Ootay (she also knew it was for her) except sometimes...you guessed it Mazy cat! I tried to discourage Mazy from using it, but I didn't want to make too big a deal out of it given her FLUTD.
I've tried making a "Helen only" box...but, nope, couldn't keep the other cats out of it! How did you teach them it was Ootay's box?

It's really a bummer, because I bought a Litter Robot so I wouldn't have to scoop anymore (man, I hate scooping). It was great for about a month until this started happening. Now Helen won't go near the Robot, and I keep adding more litterboxes...because mopping up pee every day is even worse than scooping!
 

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Originally Posted by otto

Regarding the arthritis, ask your vet about starting Helen on cosequin for cats. This will help her tremendously!
I definitely second that idea! Cosequin has helped my girl tremendously. You can usually find it on sale at Entirely Pets.com if you decide it works for her. Also, a heated pet bed will help her to move a bit easier.

My Callie loves to hide in the closet, so I made a little bed for her with an old pillow and a little fleece blanket. Hannah never finds her in there!
Also, you can take a box and cut the top flaps off. Cut an entry hole in one end and turn it upside down. Instant hiding spot! When you see the other kitties going near her in the box, direct them to a different spot or distract them with play.

Callie used to sit in the living room and watch me and Hannah playing. Now it's Callie who's running around chasing the toy and Hannah sitting on the sidelines watching.
 

otto

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Originally Posted by BrookeSphynx

I've tried making a "Helen only" box...but, nope, couldn't keep the other cats out of it! How did you teach them it was Ootay's box?
I'm not sure exactly. Maybe because the bathroom was already Ootay's domain.

She had a bed in there and no one slept in that bed but Herself. Plus I used a small litter box, Ootay was only 6 pounds at her healthy weight, the other cats were too big for it, but really, they just IGNORED it's existence, except for Mazy cat, the Litter Box Police.

It drove Mazy (the Litter Box Police) CRAZY, that litter box in the bathroom! When I first put it in there Mazy kept going into the bathroom and staring at it. A couple times I caught her lying on the floor, and dragging litter out of the box onto the floor with her front paw.

When I went into the bathroom she would follow me in, and then stare pointedly at that box, look at me, say "prrt?" and stare some more, with the most Disapproving Long Nose Look she has.

But I did other stuff they knew was Ootay only, too, for instance the middle of the night (3 a.m.) snacks. Ootay could not go very long without food so I got up at 3 a.m. every night and gave her a snack. The other cats barely opened an eye during this, they knew it was for her only.

I've just thought of something else. When Ootay's illnesses first started, and she was getting medicated all the time (and so getting a lot of, what Mazy perceived as treats and special attention) the harassment got really bad. I figured out that Mazy was jealous of Ootay getting all this special stuff (Mazy is the only cat I ever have had, so far, that shows jealousy)

So I started including Mazy in Ootay's medicine giving routine. Mazy had to work too of course, those kinds of treats were not free. But I would give Ootay her pill and treat, (usually a dot of yogurt) and then immediately turn to Mazy, do Paw Work with Mazy, then give her a treat (dot of mayonnaise). That helped a lot too.

Perhaps you can invent some treat giving ritual between the two, and see if it helps.
 
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brookesphynx

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Just wanted to give a quick update on the Helen situation....

It hasn't been very long, and I haven't been able to do much yet. Maybe just being more aware of it, and knowing why it's happening...? But, I've taken your advice and have been giving more one on one attention to Helen, putting Mandy in 'time-out' when she's acting out and Helen hasn't had a single accident outside of the litter box since I wrote my original post!
No joke, it was a daily ocurrance before.

AND, tonight she even climbed down from the couch and played with DaBird with the other 3 cats! She even caught the bird and chewed on him for a minute! (okay, I let her catch it...
)

We've still got a long way to go...as I was typing this, I had to intervene and put Mandy in the other room, but we are making progress. I've got a vet appointment this week and will see about starting her on Cosequin as suggested for her arthritis, because she does have pain in her hips and I'm sure that is a contributing factor, too.

Thanks again for all of your advice.
 

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That's wonderful news! Sometimes I think just being more aware of the situation is a huge step in the right direction. I don't remember if this was mentioned previously or not, but you also want to clean the spots where she's eliminated previously with some kind of enzymatic cleaner.

Keep us posted on her progress!
 
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brookesphynx

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Originally Posted by stephanietx

That's wonderful news! Sometimes I think just being more aware of the situation is a huge step in the right direction. I don't remember if this was mentioned previously or not, but you also want to clean the spots where she's eliminated previously with some kind of enzymatic cleaner.

Keep us posted on her progress!
Oh yes - I wish I owned stock in Nature's Miracle!


Will definitely keep you updated!
 
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brookesphynx

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Thanks for checking! Had her to the vet yesterday for a senior blood workup and to have the vet give an opinion on her arthritis...blood work just came back perfect, middle of the road for everything (yay!). She did have an accident this morning next to her litter box. I'm thinking of getting her a little ramp? When I get a shorter box, the cats kick the litter right out of it and all over the floor
.

There's still a little bit of harassing between Mandy and Helen, but the more I observe, the more I'm convinced that these problems have to do with Helen being in pain from her hips. I'm starting her on supplements that hopefully will help in the coming weeks! My vet wants to try Metacam with her, but I'm aware of the risks...we had a long discussion about quality of life vs. quantity so I may reconsider if Cosequin and Trixsyn don't do the trick. Fingers crossed!
 

stephanietx

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I think Cosequin will do well for her. You might also try some fish oil. Those 2 things have really helped my old lady cat.
 
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