Savannah Bengal?

[numa1]

Hello this is my first papered cat Numa!!!!

She is listed as a Savannah Bengal. Ive always wanted one but never really got serious enough till now.

Ive seen many types of Bengal and sizes. She seems to be on the smaller size, is this normal? Shes very light in weight and I would like to breed ( I have rights to breed per the Tica form box wasnt checked) but have no idea how to get a stud for no or small fee. Ive heard you can exchange a Kitten for services but still have not come across any information about this. Any and all information is greatly appreciated.

 

[orientalslave]

I have never heard of a Savannah Bengal and neither has Google.  Hopefully someone can educate me.

As to finding a 'free' stud - I don't know what stud fees are in the US, here in the UK they are generally somewhat less than the cost of raising the litter if it's a decent size.  As to giving a kitten back - what happens if there are no kittens, or just one?  If they want a girl and the Boy fairy has visited?

You say she is small.  How old is she, how much does she weigh?

 

[numa1]

https://www.google.com/search?q=sav...t&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&client=firefox

is what would be a good place to see the Savannah Bengal!!

How does the Stud service work in the UK?
 

 

[orientalslave]

Yes that's where I looked, but reading what came up the links were about Savannas OR Bengals, or Savanhan AND Bengal - no "Savannah Bengal" breed that I could see.  No "Savannah Bengal" listed at tica.org either.  I can believe you might have "Savannahs and Bengals" somewhere on the paperwork if you brought her from a breeder who is involved in both breeds, but have no idea what breed she actually is.

Also the best person to help you with all of this should be the breeder you brought her from - they should be able to advise about suitable studs for example, and what the procedure is.

Stud service in the UK - in the briefest of outlines only - find a suitable stud, contact the owner, find out the fee, agree to it, take the queen along when she is calling, collect her a few days later, pay at one visit or the other and hopefully in 65 days there are kittens. 

However there are lots of ins and outs I've not mentioned.  They are what you need a mentor to guide you through, including not just those to do with the stud but with pregnancy, kittening, raising and registering them and finding them good homes.

 

[StefanZ]

but have no idea how to get a stud for no or small fee. Ive heard you can exchange a Kitten for services but still have not come across any information about this.

I dont think you want a stud for free. You do want AT LEAST a decent stud...  So unless your breeder or your mentor is making you a great favor, there is no stud services for free, like there are no free lunches either.

Count with the cost of roughly what a nice kitten normally does costs, as a rough rule of thumb.

Sometimes it is used as one of the kittens to the studs owner.

So are the usual prices in Sweden, but I think it is roughly so in other countries too.

- In my own breed, Russian Blue, we were cheap. Typically it was 400 kr for mating, and 400 kr for every born and healthy kitten, at 3 weeks. One kitten cost 6000 kr.

400 kr is about 60 dollars, and 6000 a trifle under 1000 dollars...

But I believe the stud service prices had gone up somewhat, more into parity with the other breeds.

Numa, my advice to you is the same as Oriental gives:

1. Look up WHAT breed you had really got before you do anything else.  I understand it is in Tica...

2.  Find yourself mentor(s).   One of them preferably the breeder who sold you this queen to come.

And read on, read on. Visit shows, Participate in Shows, etc...

Good photos always welcome!

Good luck!

ps.  I shall ask the mods to move this thread into the Showing and Breeding forum, as you arent really interested in identifiying of the cat (??), as you are supposed to have all the papers,

but you want to know more how to do as a breeder.

 

[northernglow]

I have never heard of Savannah Bengal either. What exactly does it say in her pedigree? You either have Bengal or Savannah (or a moggie if you were ripped off).

StefanZ, that's quite cheap. In my breed the cost is 100€ per kitten which makes it to 2 weeks old + a mating fee of something aroung 50€. 100€ = $135. So if you get 5 kittens, the total would be roughly $750. The better the stud, the higher the fee. Mine were based on young International Champions. The price of a kitten is usually 650-950€. (1€ is roughly 10kr).

You can't get a good stud for free or cheap, unless of course the stud owner wants a kitten instead of money. That can however be very bad for you, if they want the kitten you'd like to keep for breeding, or you only get one or two kittens. Obviously you need to pay attention to their pedigrees too, you can't just pick the cheapest available male. You also need to make sure the stud has had all necessary tests done.

 

[sohni]

Looking at the TICA site of registered breeds, there is a Bengal breed and a Savannah breed . There is no Savannah Bengal. What kind of papers do you have?

I breed Maus and found the easist way to breed was to purchase my own stud. If you make arrangements with a stud owner, you need a contract and when you register the kittens, TICA will need to confirm with the stud owner that it is OK to release the registrations. I had a Mau girl shipped to me for breeding to my stud a few years ago. I bred them then sent her back to have the kittens. I charged the cost of one kitten - other people will ask for a kitten back OR the cost of a kitten. What you need to worry about is the health of the stud and the health of your queen. If either give the other a disease, that opens all kinds of problems.

All of this is moot however, if you don't have a properly registered cat.

 

[orientalslave]

How about scanning the papers and posting the image here so we can see what the cat actually is?

 

[maewkaew]

We'd love to see more pictures of your kitty! If that's her in the picture the pattern looks more like Savannah than Bengal. Whichever she is, or if she is some of both, she's probably going to keep you busy!

Breeding is something that should not be done without some serious advance research and planning, I mean well before selecting a cat to breed. I am kind of concerned you probably havent done that much, and don't have a knowledgeable responsible breeder mentoring you, or you would know that those are 2 different breeds and are not permitted outcrosses for each other. I'm not saying you can't / shouldn't ever be a breeder of Bengals OR Savannahs, but it may be that now is not the right time and this is not the right cat for your foundation cat.

Stud fees in the US are usually about the cost of a kitten of the breed. But most owners of quality studs don't offer stud service to queens owned by strangers who aren't already established breeders or being mentored by a breeder they know and respect.
Also, the more responsible Savannah or Bengal breeders won't want their cattery name associated with crossing the two breeds. So IF your girl IS indeed a cross , that would probably further limit your options to the least responsible breeders or just pet owners who happen to have an unaltered male. & I just don't think it's a very good idea. Not all cats need to be bred. and that includes most cats with papers even if they are just ONE breed. Hey, I have a cat who is a Supreme and a Regional Winner in TICA and he is neutered and never has been bred.
Maybe she should just be spayed and be your beloved pet and then if you truly are interested in getting into breeding one or the other of these breeds, choose which one, spend at least a year or two getting knowledge and meeting people and networking, so you start out on the right paw, so to speak.

As people have mentioned, there is no breed called Savannah-Bengal. Of course it IS possible for a cat to be a cross between a Savannah and a Bengal. And a kitten from a non-permitted outcross breeding can be registered in TICA with a special registration prefix ( the first 3 letters of the Registration Number. )
If she IS a cross of 2 breeds, the breeder should have made that clear.

In any case, it should be easy to figure out something about her ancestry if you just look at the TICA papers. At the very least, you should have either your cat's individual registration paper, or else the slip that you can send in to TICA to individually register a kitten. You probably would have got a pedigree with the cat that will tell registered names, titles, breed, registration number, color/ pattern for 5 generations. But at least you should have that for the parents on the registration paper.

If you are mistaken about the "Savannah Bengal" and she is one or the other and has an SBT prefix so she is eligible to be shown, I would recommend getting out to some shows and getting some objective opinions from judges.

TICA's policies can be confusing, and can in a way seem contradictory.
On the one hand, for each breed, it is the Breed Section who define their breed; they (with input /approval of the Genetics Committee, Rules Commitee and the Board of Directors) determine the breed standard and whether there are any permissible outcrosses. Neither the Bengal standard nor the Savannah standard allow the other breed as an outcross.
That means a cross of Savannah and Bengal is not considered to be really a purebred of either breed (and cannot be shown) until it gets to the 4th generation with 15 out of 16 grandparents as all the same breed.
(There are similar rules about how far they are from the non-domestic species. Only the ones with an SBT registration prefix can be shown. )

But on the other hand, TICA's registration rules give a LOT of latitude to individual breeders in order to permit people to do an occasional outcross if they think there is sound reason for it, and to encourage honesty in pedigrees.
So technically , one CAN breed to a non-permitted outcross and then register the kittens under either breed -- BUT they get a special registration prefix, and would not be eligible to show. and if they were bred , their descendents could not be shown until/ unless there was 4 generations of breeding back to just the same breed (For some other breeds, it could be within a breed group, or to another permitted outcross. But in the case of Bengal or Savannah those things don't apply. )

IMO a good reason why a breeder might use a non-permitted outcross would be something like if it were a small breed needing to increase genetic diversity/ reduce inbreeding. Or if some health problem had become widespread in a breed, and they needed to outcross to non-affected cats. A knowledgeable breeder might go ahead and do that , while at the same time working to try to get the rules changed for their breed.
I don't think either Bengals or Savannahs need an outcross for those reasons.
There may be other examples where there would be a good reason to do a non-permitted outcross.
Some examples I would NOT consider good reasons are:
* "Buyers will think it is cool to have a cross of these 2 breeds! Or I'll tell people it is some new rare breed!"
* or "Well, i happen to have a cat of each breed and they're not fixed and it might be fun to breed them. "
Unfortunately although the intention is not for people to use this loophole for such frivolous reasons , there are people who do, and sometimes also mislead buyers.

This issue of TICA registration rules is discussed on this thread of the Savannah Cat Chat forum . http://www.savannahcatchat.com/threads/we-are-a-championship-breed.231/page-3 Especially look at post 24 by Dr. Cris Bird. ( this is the Chausie breeder I mentioned in another thread recently, who is also on the TICA rules committee).

 

[cat person]

Okay, yes, there is no such thing as a Savannah Bengal. However, one breeder, I am aware of, routinely lets her male ALC/Asian Leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis) breed her F1 queen or her F2 queen. The resulting kittens, are spotted like the Savannah or Serval. They do not have the pretty Rosettes of the ALC or F1 Bengal. The body type and stature end up looking like a very large ALC or F1 Bengal.

More importantly, the disposition of the hybrid is much much less "spookish"/feral acting. Which, is very common with F1 Bengals or pure ALC. I would need to see photo's, in order, to know, if, that is what the OP means. Now, when, the breeder "papers" the cat, you can paper the cat F1 Bengal. Since, one parent is a pure ALC. Another, more popular way to "paper" the cat, is, to call it an F1  or F3 "savannah". The way that works is, one parent was a savannah.  The ALC male x the F1 female Savannah or an F2 Savannah queen. So, the ALC x F1 savannah, is supposedly still making an F1 "savannah". It is definitely a first generation hybrid

. I am not sure, I would call it a F1 "Savannah" though. Since, the sire is a ALC, it isn't a high percentage (HP) F1 Savannah. Since, of course, a Serval ( Leptailurus serval) isn't used in this breeding scenario. Now, when, the ALC is mated with the F2 Savannah queen, you get a "F3 savannah".

Another possibility, please note the term possibility, as, I have no idea, if, this is the case, is, I have seen breeders, breed a male SBT Bengal to a F3-F5/SBT Savannah. Then, call it a Savannah Bengal. I see no point to that. As, they look like a Bengal and tend to have the crazy Savannah energy.

Please, refer to maewkaew's post for all the rest, as, they are spot on, IMHO.

Sorry for all the edits. I am not sure how to make my point clear

. Can anyone help me

. Yes, I am literately

, so, I need to stop

.

 

[Anne]

Technical clarification -

Usually newbies cannot post in this specific forum. However, I've made an exception here, to allow the OP to post back to the thread if she wants to.

So, to clarify - some users can be let in on an individual basis. It doesn't mean we changed the rules of the forum. New threads by such members will be moderated (and this could end up being a temporary privilege in some cases).

 

[callista]

H'mmm... Maybe the best way for you to learn stuff would be to start going to cat shows, and asking people who are breeding the cats you want to breed. I think it is much more useful to have a good broad knowledge of practical things involved in breeding before you start; and you can try showing your own kitty, to get practice for that, if she happens to like it. After all, it is a rather serious thing to breed kittens, and you don't want to make a mistake and end up with health problems or kittens that are not very good examples of the breed; and a litter of kittens will cost a lot, so you want to be absolutely sure you want to breed. Plus, getting to know the community is fun, and while you're doing that you can put off making any major commitments, so you know exactly what you are getting into.

 

[StefanZ]

How is it in your country and your Association?

Here in Sweden and our big Association Fife - and our national sub-association Sverak.

All breeders and show participants, and most of owners of pure breeds, belong of course to the Sverak / Fife  (or some other association).

But we are also supposed to belong to some local cat club.  And being active in such a local cat club gives much. They have often classes on basic breeder knowledge, basic Showing knowledge, they arrange Shows, both smaller internal local shows mostly for own club members, and also big international / Regional shows...

And thus, there is easy to get quite a lot of guidance and with any help, mentors.

Not necessarily in one own breed, but an  all round mentor...  Not seldom helping with the practical around participating in Shows.    Which isnt easy for a newbe the first couple of occassions.

 

[orientalslave]

I've lost track of who is wanting to breed, but another good preparation (as well as going to shows and so on) is to foster a queen with kittens.  In the UK most rescues are desperate for more foster homes.

 

[cat person]

I've lost track of who is wanting to breed, but another good preparation (as well as going to shows and so on) is to foster a queen with kittens.  In the UK most rescues are desperate for more foster homes.

Yes, I agree. But, having an F1 (Bengal or Savannah) with a litter is NOTHING like a domestic. The mother is VERY protective and can be down right aggressive, when, defending her offspring. Even a nice F1 queen, can be dangerous with her first few litters.

<snipped>How is it in your country and your Association?

I am pretty sure, that, the only association, which is large and takes the true hybrids, are T.I.C.A.

Here in Sweden and our big Association Fife - and our national sub-association Sverak.<snipped>

Do they accept the true hybrids? Those are the Bengals (Asian Leopard Cat x domestic), Chausie (Jungle Cat x domestic) Savannah (Serval x domestic) and Safari (Geoffrey x domestic). The up and coming breed, is, the Cara Cat. That is, the African Caracal/Caracal Lynx (old name and NOT a lynx) crossed with a domestic.

H'mmm... Maybe the best way for you to learn stuff would be to start going to cat shows, and asking people who are breeding the cats you want to breed. I think it is much more useful to have a good broad knowledge of practical things involved in breeding before you start;

Now, I just looked at, the OP's display pic. That is clearly an F1 "Savannah Bengal". The Father was clearly an ALC (Asian Leopard Cat). The bone structure and face make that clear. Plus, the "small size". An ALC is less then 10 lbs and looks like a long DSH in the most basic terms. Now, if, you look at the coat, you do not see the rossets of the ALC/Bengal. Why, it is quite simple, the mother was some sort of spotted cat. I am guessing a Savannah. I have NO idea, of, the generation. It could be F1-SBT. Yes, I have seen an ALC breed a 62% F1 Savannah. Quite a site

. Yes, the queen allowed it and only the ALC at that

.

I wish the OP would come back

.