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Safeguarding future of pedigree cat breeds
- Thread starter bugmankeith
- Start Date
Thanks for posting this wonderful video of the beautiful cats at the Thai Cat Centre.
Thailand has an incredibly rich heritage of their native cats. which have contributed so much to the world's cat breeds.
and genetic researchers have found that cats from that area are genetically very unique, very different from the rest of the world's cats.
My own girl Phai-lin is almost half from recent imports of Wichienmaat (Siamese) cats from Thailand ; cats from the original source are being used to broaden the gene pool of the moderate type Siamese in the West.
I enjoy very much Mr. Pukkabutr's comments on THai cats and Thai people!. He does make a few little mistakes in what he says about the breeds in the international cat fancy . For example he says the Suphalak is yet to be registered -- but the Suphalak, also called Thong Daeng, is known as the Burmese breed in the west. ( maybe that's why he doesn't say it, because it seems confusing / bizarre / maddening to Thai people that their Suphalak would be called "Burmese" in other countries , when it is an ancient breed from Thailand. But they are next door to Burma and cat patterns don't observe the border. and the cat who originally became the foundation of the Burmese breed in the West, was brought to the U.S. from Burma in the 1930s.
and he says the black cat , called the Konja in the Tamra Maew manuscripts, was registered in India. But that's just some confusion about the breed name "Bombay" , which actually is one of the multiple examples of Western breeders coming up with a breed name for some exotic location that had nothing at all to do with the origin of the cats! It's understandable that he would think that India must have been involved somehow!
Actually, the Bombay is a cross between Burmese and Western black shorthair cats. but now mostly Burmese. and it was originally developed in the USA.
The white cat shown at the end is a Khao Manee which is the latest of the historical Thai breeds to be recognized in the West. they still do not have full recognition but are in the process in TICA and the GCCF.
Thailand has an incredibly rich heritage of their native cats. which have contributed so much to the world's cat breeds.
and genetic researchers have found that cats from that area are genetically very unique, very different from the rest of the world's cats.
My own girl Phai-lin is almost half from recent imports of Wichienmaat (Siamese) cats from Thailand ; cats from the original source are being used to broaden the gene pool of the moderate type Siamese in the West.
I enjoy very much Mr. Pukkabutr's comments on THai cats and Thai people!. He does make a few little mistakes in what he says about the breeds in the international cat fancy . For example he says the Suphalak is yet to be registered -- but the Suphalak, also called Thong Daeng, is known as the Burmese breed in the west. ( maybe that's why he doesn't say it, because it seems confusing / bizarre / maddening to Thai people that their Suphalak would be called "Burmese" in other countries , when it is an ancient breed from Thailand. But they are next door to Burma and cat patterns don't observe the border. and the cat who originally became the foundation of the Burmese breed in the West, was brought to the U.S. from Burma in the 1930s.
and he says the black cat , called the Konja in the Tamra Maew manuscripts, was registered in India. But that's just some confusion about the breed name "Bombay" , which actually is one of the multiple examples of Western breeders coming up with a breed name for some exotic location that had nothing at all to do with the origin of the cats! It's understandable that he would think that India must have been involved somehow!
Actually, the Bombay is a cross between Burmese and Western black shorthair cats. but now mostly Burmese. and it was originally developed in the USA.
The white cat shown at the end is a Khao Manee which is the latest of the historical Thai breeds to be recognized in the West. they still do not have full recognition but are in the process in TICA and the GCCF.
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LOL The first time through the video, I missed that he said at the beginning that the original Thai cats were descended from Siberian tigers!!!
Of course the cats of Thailand, like the cats of the rest of the world, descend from various subspecies of Felis silvestris lybica.
But I think my meezers would like the idea that they are really tigers.
Of course the cats of Thailand, like the cats of the rest of the world, descend from various subspecies of Felis silvestris lybica.
But I think my meezers would like the idea that they are really tigers.
Tx for explaining of how the look alikes of a Burman [edit: Burmese] and a Bombay did turned back into Burman and Bombay... 
Although it is striking, as Bombay is essentially a construction, they do apparently have a sorts of Bombay originale, the Konja. So that is probably not yet end of this story, more will come.
Btw, They mentioned they had many more cat breed back in time. 29?? Sounds grossly much. My guess some of it was they had different colors counted as different breeds.
I think the program is raising thoughs. Who was the man? An interested visitor a little out in the blue, or the custodian of the cat establishent? I though he was the custodian, the person in charge.
And he doesnt seem to have much clue. I mean, if he cant all the nuances of all the westernesse cats, he is forgiven. But when he cant the contemporary history of his own thai breeds...
It may be OK for an local fancier. But it is not OK for the expert in charge. How can he develop them if he dont know the contemporary developments at all?
At the very best he may preserve them as they are.
(or was it simply a bad translation combined with an ignorant journalistic work??)
And yet, I do allow him for not saying aloud the name of Burma - it may be something political.
And this with siberian tiger may be just a common jokingly exagerration - after all, they do say it in west too, "our cats dont know they arent tigers for real", or alike saying...
One point thought. At the first moment, I was a little shocked. They were keept in cages!
But it dawned on me; the cages were surely just their exhibition and show area, for the cameras and for the visitors.
They normally were living somewhere else.
We can see it among others, they had no litters, sleeping places etc in there, and still, the cats were seemingly in excellent shape and thriwing.
Yeah, surely a fascinating cat country, Thailand and its history.
Although it is striking, as Bombay is essentially a construction, they do apparently have a sorts of Bombay originale, the Konja. So that is probably not yet end of this story, more will come.
Btw, They mentioned they had many more cat breed back in time. 29?? Sounds grossly much. My guess some of it was they had different colors counted as different breeds.
I think the program is raising thoughs. Who was the man? An interested visitor a little out in the blue, or the custodian of the cat establishent? I though he was the custodian, the person in charge.
And he doesnt seem to have much clue. I mean, if he cant all the nuances of all the westernesse cats, he is forgiven. But when he cant the contemporary history of his own thai breeds...
It may be OK for an local fancier. But it is not OK for the expert in charge. How can he develop them if he dont know the contemporary developments at all?
At the very best he may preserve them as they are.
(or was it simply a bad translation combined with an ignorant journalistic work??)
And yet, I do allow him for not saying aloud the name of Burma - it may be something political.
And this with siberian tiger may be just a common jokingly exagerration - after all, they do say it in west too, "our cats dont know they arent tigers for real", or alike saying...
One point thought. At the first moment, I was a little shocked. They were keept in cages!
But it dawned on me; the cages were surely just their exhibition and show area, for the cameras and for the visitors.
They normally were living somewhere else.
We can see it among others, they had no litters, sleeping places etc in there, and still, the cats were seemingly in excellent shape and thriwing.
Yeah, surely a fascinating cat country, Thailand and its history.
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Hi Stefan.
The gentleman in the video is Mr. Preecha Pukkabutr , and you are correct, he wasn't a visitor; he runs this Thai Cat Centre and is the breeder of these cats, I think he is helped by some younger family members.
Unfortunately I don't speak Thai, so I don't know how much was a bad translation. and yes he certainly may have been joking about the tiger thing, making a point that they think they are tigers!
And yes the thing about Burma definitely is political. and I an absolutely imagine someone not wanting to acknowledge that the Suphalak / Thong Daeng is called Burmese.
But I also do not think he is much informed about the Western cat fancy.
The thing about 23 "breeds" refers to the Tamra Maew medieval era manuscripts dating back to the Ayudhia period starting from the 1300s , with poems describing different kinds of cats considered lucky or unlucky. Most of them are just differing arrangements of black and white , so not really different breeds exactly in the way that we would define breeds. It's more about different color and pattern.
Biologically they have one "race" of cats, that is genetically very unique due to long isolation on a peninsula , with mountains and dense jungle cutting it off.
Thai people call a a random-bred native blue cat a Si Sawat ( Korat) or a random bred pointed cat a Wichienmaat (Siamese) .
But the Tamra Maew does recommend keeping and breeding the lucky cats, and some of them have been bred 'purebred' for a long time.
- the ones you'd expect -- Siamese, Burmese, Korat and Khaomanee.
. But I think some of the breeders also keep some black or black & white cats so they can say they have some other examples from the Tamra Maew. And this place seen in the video is not just a breeding cattery, but a tourist attraction, so they want to show more of the Tamra Maew cats.
One of the ones that doesn't exist now, the way it's described sounds like the black grizzled pattern now seen in the Chausies. Perhaps an early hybrid?
f
I do think the cats are mostly in cages. It's possible that what's in the video is just an area for visitors to see examples and maybe some of the time they are in a larger enclosure.
To be honest they do not have the same kind of standards we do in the West today for catteries especially small home based catteries. It is pretty common that most the cats are in cages and breeders have more cats than most 'reputable' breeders in Europe or North America do today. Yet from what I have heard they often do seem to be very friendly cats, which is maybe a lot due to the very social nature of these cats. but of course must also be due to regular human interaction with the cats.
There are certainly some breeders better than others.
You might be interested in these photos of cats in Thailand, including both cats who have homes but are seen in shopfronts etc. , homeless cats on the street or at a wat ( Buddhist temple. The monks feed stray animals. ) and purebred cats at breeders. http://www.siamesekittens.info/thailand.html
P.S. In English, the sepia patterned shorthair cat from Southeast Asia origin is called "Burmese" . If you write it as "Burman" , people will probably think you mean what in English is written as "Birman" (sometimes called Sacred Birman, in France called the Sacrée de Birmanie , the longhair pointed cat with white 'gloves', that I have said before I believe was really probably created by French breeders in the early 20th century
The gentleman in the video is Mr. Preecha Pukkabutr , and you are correct, he wasn't a visitor; he runs this Thai Cat Centre and is the breeder of these cats, I think he is helped by some younger family members.
Unfortunately I don't speak Thai, so I don't know how much was a bad translation. and yes he certainly may have been joking about the tiger thing, making a point that they think they are tigers!
And yes the thing about Burma definitely is political. and I an absolutely imagine someone not wanting to acknowledge that the Suphalak / Thong Daeng is called Burmese.
But I also do not think he is much informed about the Western cat fancy.
The thing about 23 "breeds" refers to the Tamra Maew medieval era manuscripts dating back to the Ayudhia period starting from the 1300s , with poems describing different kinds of cats considered lucky or unlucky. Most of them are just differing arrangements of black and white , so not really different breeds exactly in the way that we would define breeds. It's more about different color and pattern.
Biologically they have one "race" of cats, that is genetically very unique due to long isolation on a peninsula , with mountains and dense jungle cutting it off.
Thai people call a a random-bred native blue cat a Si Sawat ( Korat) or a random bred pointed cat a Wichienmaat (Siamese) .
But the Tamra Maew does recommend keeping and breeding the lucky cats, and some of them have been bred 'purebred' for a long time.
- the ones you'd expect -- Siamese, Burmese, Korat and Khaomanee.
. But I think some of the breeders also keep some black or black & white cats so they can say they have some other examples from the Tamra Maew. And this place seen in the video is not just a breeding cattery, but a tourist attraction, so they want to show more of the Tamra Maew cats.
One of the ones that doesn't exist now, the way it's described sounds like the black grizzled pattern now seen in the Chausies. Perhaps an early hybrid?
f
I do think the cats are mostly in cages. It's possible that what's in the video is just an area for visitors to see examples and maybe some of the time they are in a larger enclosure.
To be honest they do not have the same kind of standards we do in the West today for catteries especially small home based catteries. It is pretty common that most the cats are in cages and breeders have more cats than most 'reputable' breeders in Europe or North America do today. Yet from what I have heard they often do seem to be very friendly cats, which is maybe a lot due to the very social nature of these cats. but of course must also be due to regular human interaction with the cats.
There are certainly some breeders better than others.
You might be interested in these photos of cats in Thailand, including both cats who have homes but are seen in shopfronts etc. , homeless cats on the street or at a wat ( Buddhist temple. The monks feed stray animals. ) and purebred cats at breeders. http://www.siamesekittens.info/thailand.html
P.S. In English, the sepia patterned shorthair cat from Southeast Asia origin is called "Burmese" . If you write it as "Burman" , people will probably think you mean what in English is written as "Birman" (sometimes called Sacred Birman, in France called the Sacrée de Birmanie , the longhair pointed cat with white 'gloves', that I have said before I believe was really probably created by French breeders in the early 20th century
It got me to think. There is the Bombay orginale, the Konja. And yet the western breeders make themselves a lot of fuss to construct the Bombay.
AND our Custodian in half does admits the Bombay is the Konja...
The equation doesnt match. There is at least one unkown X-factor. A fat and big one.
My try for solution.
1. The western develpers had the idea as they knew about the Konja, but by some reason, couldnt get any Konja to start breeding it. So they recreated it, by using its very near akin the "Burmese".
OK, nice and fine, the equation is almost OK, but not really yet satysfied.
2. I suspect strongly, there WAS some informal connections, and some Konjas were sent / sold and used in the breeding programme of Bombay.
Although with a strong promise of secrecy.
(It was perhaps said they used a black moggie as an intermediate.)
And thus, our venerable Custodian DOES recognizes the Bombay as a real Konja-descendant.
The equation is now fully satysfied, as I see it.
What do you think, Maew & CO?
I am not sure if Nikki Horner knew anything about the Konja cats described in the Tamra Maew when she had the idea of crossing Burmese and black American Shorthairs to make a miniature black panther.
Even without knowing that, breeders would surely be able to assume that there must be black cats in Southeast Asia , but I never heard anything about them being used for the Bombay.
but it could be a cool idea!
Even without knowing that, breeders would surely be able to assume that there must be black cats in Southeast Asia , but I never heard anything about them being used for the Bombay.
but it could be a cool idea!
