Raw Vs Kibble

[Azazel]

MOD NOTE:
These posts have been taken from another thread as they were taking it off-topic. The dialogue between the two members is concluded and this thread is now locked.

Look my own cat eats a grain-free food from a different brand and every Hill's food I tried actually caused irritation over her food intolerances. And I have my own questions/worries about commercial cat foods. With that said, if Hill's was so terrible, how come there are so many customers in different countries whose cats live long lives with Hill's? My brother's now senior outdoor-indoor cat being one. He's very allergic and has been on Hill's z/d for a decade now. He had UTI once when they were moving to a different country from stress and that was literally the only major health issue he experienced. If a food is "such an evil, death sentence" there simply cannot be millions of alive creatures who get fed with it only and still make it to senior age.

Not to say that would be the best choice for your cat - every cat and situation is different. But I don't think they are sooooo much more controversial than the others. With raw diet, there is risk of not providing a balance diet or food poisoning (not every raw meat around the world is same amount of safe!) Like with every option you will hear some bad experiences, and some good ones. At least with popular brands you get lots of feedback.

Here is what Dr. Lisa Pierson would say in response to your questions:

“Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited. That may sound like a very obvious and basic statement but if you think about it……

Every cat with a blocked urinary tract was “fine” until they started to strain to urinate and either died from a ruptured bladder or had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency catheterization.

Every cat on the Feline Diabetes Message Board was “fine” until their owners started to recognize the signs of diabetes.

Every cat with an inflamed bladder (cystitis) was “fine” until they ended up in severe pain, started passing blood in their urine, and began to refuse to use their litter box because they associated it with their pain.

Every cat was “fine” until the feeding of species-inappropriate, hyperallergenic ingredients caught up with him and he started to show signs of food intolerance/IBD (inflammatory bowel disease).

Every cat was “fine” until that kidney or bladder stone got big enough to cause clinical signs.

Every cancer patient was “fine” until their tumor grew large enough or spread far enough so that clinical signs were observed by the patient.

The point is that diseases ‘brew’ long before being noticed by the living being.

This is why the statement “but my cat is healthy/fine on dry food” means very little to me because I believe in preventative nutrition – not locking the barn door after the horse is gone. I don’t want to end up saying “oops……I guess he is not so fine now!!” when a patient presents to me with a medical problem that could have been avoided if he would have been feed a species-appropriate diet to begin with.“

Source: Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition – Common Sense. Healthy Cats.

 

[MissClouseau]

Here is what Dr. Lisa Pierson would say in response to your questions:

“Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited. That may sound like a very obvious and basic statement but if you think about it……

Every cat with a blocked urinary tract was “fine” until they started to strain to urinate and either died from a ruptured bladder or had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency catheterization.

Every cat on the Feline Diabetes Message Board was “fine” until their owners started to recognize the signs of diabetes.

Every cat with an inflamed bladder (cystitis) was “fine” until they ended up in severe pain, started passing blood in their urine, and began to refuse to use their litter box because they associated it with their pain.

Every cat was “fine” until the feeding of species-inappropriate, hyperallergenic ingredients caught up with him and he started to show signs of food intolerance/IBD (inflammatory bowel disease).

Every cat was “fine” until that kidney or bladder stone got big enough to cause clinical signs.

Every cancer patient was “fine” until their tumor grew large enough or spread far enough so that clinical signs were observed by the patient.

The point is that diseases ‘brew’ long before being noticed by the living being.

This is why the statement “but my cat is healthy/fine on dry food” means very little to me because I believe in preventative nutrition – not locking the barn door after the horse is gone. I don’t want to end up saying “oops……I guess he is not so fine now!!” when a patient presents to me with a medical problem that could have been avoided if he would have been feed a species-appropriate diet to begin with.“

Source: Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition – Common Sense. Healthy Cats.

This would make so much sense if all living creatures didn't die from something eventually. My one grandmother died of cancer at the age of 84. No doctor or anyone asked "But why did she have cancer, could this be prevented?" etc Because she was 84. She had already passed the average lifespan for women in our country. If it wasn't for cancer, it was probably going to be something else. My other grandmother died of dementia-related breathing issues and she was also in her 80s. Her kids are not changing their diet like "Our mother had this diet and died from dementia, we shouldn't eat this anymore."

Our cats will unfortunately die from something when they are seniors. If they are lucky enough to make it to senior age. There are a LOT of cats who lived on Royal Canin and Hill's foods worldwide and lived up to the average lifespan for cats. There are examples from all over the world.

I know your cats are doing fine on a raw diet and that's fantastic. But I don't believe there is one size fits all with any diet. Especially considering, with a raw diet, meat isn't the same quality everywhere in the world or even in different regions in the same country.

 

[Azazel]

This would make so much sense if all living creatures didn't die from something eventually. My one grandmother died of cancer at the age of 84. No doctor or anyone asked "But why did she have cancer, could this be prevented?" etc Because she was 84. She had already passed the average lifespan for women in our country. If it wasn't for cancer, it was probably going to be something else. My other grandmother died of dementia-related breathing issues and she was also in her 80s. Her kids are not changing their diet like "Our mother had this diet and died from dementia, we shouldn't eat this anymore."

Our cats will unfortunately die from something when they are seniors. If they are lucky enough to make it to senior age. There are a LOT of cats who lived on Royal Canin and Hill's foods worldwide and lived up to the average lifespan for cats. There are examples from all over the world.

I know your cats are doing fine on a raw diet and that's fantastic. But I don't believe there is one size fits all with any diet. Especially considering, with a raw diet, meat isn't the same quality everywhere in the world or even in different regions in the same country.

The point is that, yes, some cats will survive on a poor diet of kibble, just as some humans will survive on a poor diet of over processed foods. But many will get sick. So many of us choose to feed healthier foods from the start as a preventative because we are not willing to gamble that our cats will be one of the lucky ones who can survive a long time on a species-inappropriate diet.

It’s not about one size fits all. It’s common sense and logic. The only reason kibble even exists is because there was a shortage of cans during WWI (or maybe WWII, can’t remember), so manufacturers started creating non-canned pet food. It doesn’t exist because it’s healthier for cats or dogs. It continues to exist today because of the profit margin and its preference by people because of its convenience. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare over-processed carbs to fresh raw meat.

Do you think if you told your human doctor you were going to avoid the fresh food aisle at the supermarket for the rest for your life because your aunt or uncle lived until 100 on an entirely processed food diet they would agree that this would be a healthy and wise choice?

 

[MissClouseau]

The point is that, yes, some cats will survive on a poor diet of kibble, just as some humans will survive on a poor diet of over processed foods. But many will get sick.

Many cats get sick period. Many humans get sick too. The correlation Lisa Pierson hints at to food has no solid evidence. From genes to getting fed too much or too little, eating toxic plants or something, there are many factors why a cat (or a human) might get sick.

So many of us choose to feed healthier foods from the start as a preventative because we are not willing to gamble that our cats will be one of the lucky ones who can survive a long time on a species-inappropriate diet.

It’s not about one size fits all. It’s common sense and logic.

You preparing raw food for your cats only have your cats as feedback. The food other people will give to their cats will not come from your kitchen. You don't know if they will do a good job at providing a balance diet. You cannot possibly know the quality of meat where they live as they will probably not buy from the same places you do or Lisa Pierson does.

Do you know the quality of meat say everywhere in Russia? Does Lisa Pierson do? There are still anthrax cases in the world. Some countries are not great at regulations, or checking for instance if there is still antibiotics left on meat or if they are clean enough and so on. When the meat is cooked which is how we humans eat, the risk goes down to minimum. That's not going to be the case with a raw diet.

My common sense and logic tells me again there is no one size fits all about diet.

 

[Azazel]

Many cats get sick period. Many humans get sick too. The correlation Lisa Pierson hints at to food has no solid evidence. From genes to getting fed too much or too little, eating toxic plants or something, there are many factors why a cat (or a human) might get sick.

We have no solid evidence that nutrition and diet is important for health? I don't know any human or cat doctor or nutritionist who would deny that.

Of course there are lots of factors that play into health. I don't really feel good about the logic of "well, anything else could be killing my cat so I'll just continue to feed it an overly-processed diet of carbs."

You preparing raw food for your cats only have your cats as feedback. The food other people will give to their cats will not come from your kitchen. You don't know if they will do a good job at providing a balance diet. You cannot possibly know the quality of meat where they live as they will probably not buy from the same places you do or Lisa Pierson does.

Cat food isn't rocket science. Vets have done a good job of making the general public afraid of making cat food. But by this logic we should just have store bought kibble as human food too since humans are probably too stupid to make food for themselves and their own babies.

Do you know the quality of meat say everywhere in Russia? Does Lisa Pierson do? There are still anthrax cases in the world. Some countries are not great at regulations, or checking for instance if there is still antibiotics left on meat or if they are clean enough and so on. When the meat is cooked which is how we humans eat, the risk goes down to minimum. That's not going to be the case with a raw diet.

It's up to the pet parent to make sure the quality of meat they are purchasing is from a credible source. That's not Dr. P's responsibility. Do you know the quality of the meat that goes into the kibble you purchase? According to US pet food regulations, the meat in pet foods could potentially include meat from diseased animals. Do you recall the 2007 epidemic of humans becoming sick from salmonella from dry kibble? Amazingly, the cats were never affected. That's because cats aren't humans. They have short and acidic digestive tracts that are meant for processing good and bad bacteria efficiently.

My common sense and logic tells me again there is no one size fits all about diet.

Right - and Dr. P. isn't using a one size fits all logic, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.

 

[MissClouseau]

We have no solid evidence that nutrition and diet is important for health? I don't know any human or cat doctor or nutritionist who would deny that.

Of course there are lots of factors that play into health. I don't really feel good about the logic of "well, anything else could be killing my cat so I'll just continue to feed it an overly-processed diet of carbs."

That's not what I said at all. I said there is no evidence the cats who got sick got sick BECAUSE of their Hill's food. My brother's cat didn't make it to senior years and counting because of his Hill's food necessarily. And a cat who died mid-aged and was fed with Hill's didn't develop whatever killed him because of his Hill's necessarily either.

Cat food isn't rocket science.

No it isn't but there are nuances. I don't remember if it was Lisa Pierson or someone else but I watched Pet Fooled and one of the things said to support a raw diet raised my eyebrow like how humans' diet doesn't change or something like that. That's also not true. Lactose intolerance is more common in some countries than the others. In Turkey and abouts we have "Mediterranean anemia" which is genetical. The genome of wheat isn't exactly the same everywhere. Some people do better on a vegan diet, some don't. Genes, environment, access to resources all play a factor.

But by this logic we should just have store bought kibble as human food too since humans are probably too stupid to make food for themselves and their own babies.

If you trust everyone's cooking or preparing meal, does that mean you would eat the food served anywhere in the world from anyone? If so, you have more trust in my uncle's cooking than he does.

It's up to the pet parent to make sure the quality of meat they are purchasing is from a credible source. That's not Dr. P's responsibility.

Pet parents don't have a lab in their kitchen like commercial food companies do nor their food will get tested. There are users from at the top of my head India, China, Qatar on TCS. You simply don't know how many credible sources are there in these countries, how expensive it is, how well their food regulation systems work... You might think Hill's is bad and you might even be right but it might STILL be the lesser of the evils at the same time and the best option for a cat.

Right - and Dr. P. isn't using a one size fits all logic, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.

Because you kind of do.

 

[Azazel]

That's not what I said at all. I said there is no evidence the cats who got sick got sick BECAUSE of their Hill's food. My brother's cat didn't make it to senior years and counting because of his Hill's food necessarily. And a cat who died mid-aged and was fed with Hill's didn't develop whatever killed him because of his Hill's necessarily either.

Okay, but no one is claiming that your brother's cat got sick from Hill's food. We're talking about nutrition and the importance of it for health more generally. Diseases also rarely occur as a result of a single factor. There are usually multiple factors that come into play and nutrition is usually an important one.

No it isn't but there are nuances. I don't remember if it was Lisa Pierson or someone else but I watched Pet Fooled and one of the things said to support a raw diet raised my eyebrow like how humans' diet doesn't change or something like that. That's also not true. Lactose intolerance is more common in some countries than the others. In Turkey and abouts we have "Mediterranean anemia" which is genetical. The genome of wheat isn't exactly the same everywhere. Some people do better on a vegan diet, some don't. Genes, environment, access to resources all play a factor.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to in Pet Fooled, but the fact that cats are obligate carnivores has not changed. That's a little different from lactose intolerance. I hope you're not implying that any cat would do better on a vegan diet. Comparing feline and human nutrition is also like comparing apples to oranges.

If you trust everyone's cooking or preparing meal, does that mean you would eat the food served anywhere in the world from anyone? If so, you have more trust in my uncle's cooking than he does.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here or how it's relevant.

Pet parents don't have a lab in their kitchen like commercial food companies do nor their food will get tested. There are users from at the top of my head India, China, Qatar on TCS. You simply don't know how many credible sources are there in these countries, how expensive it is, how well their food regulation systems work... You might think Hill's is bad and you might even be right but it might STILL be the lesser of the evils at the same time and the best option for a cat.

Should I be testing every meal I make for myself?

You do realize that most of the 'testing' that occurs with kibble companies involves feeding cats the same meal for 30 days to see if they survive, right? It's really not rigorous or transparent testing and no data has been released to the public (as far as I'm aware). You have a lot more confidence in taking what authority tells you at face value than I do, I guess.

Hmm, in many countries in the world pet food doesn't exist. People feed their cats raw meat scraps and cats hunt for themselves. Kibble is really a very new and "Western" thing. So rather than raw feeders having to justify why they feed raw to cats, which is what cats have been eating since they began existing in this world, it really is up to kibble companies to justify why we should be feeding kibble - a new and over processed carby type of food - to obligate carnivores.

Anyway, we are hijacking the thread now and I'm really not sure where this conversation is going as your responses seem to dance around most of the comments I make.

Because you kind of do.

Are you referring to the comment that it's a fact that cats are obligate carnivores? Yes, actually, that is a scientific fact and one size does fit all in that case.

 

[MissClouseau]

Diseases also rarely occur as a result of a single factor. There are usually multiple factors that come into play and nutrition is usually an important one.

Yes! And that's exactly what I said in response to that Lisa Pierson argument and her not having evidence why cats get sick.

I hope you're not implying that any cat would do better on a vegan diet. Comparing feline and human nutrition is also like comparing apples to oranges.

Of course not. I made a comparison to human diets because you said if kibbles are better than that's how humans should eat too.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here or how it's relevant.

You assume everyone will do a good job at preparing a raw diet and provide the same quality meat you do to your cats.

You do realize that most of the 'testing' that occurs with kibble companies involves feeding cats the same meal for 30 days to see if they survive, right?

That's still more than how we can test our foods which we test just once, on our own cat.

Hmm, in many countries in the world pet food doesn't exist. People feed their cats raw meat scraps and cats hunt for themselves.

A cat hunting for themselves is so much more fresh than store-bought processed, transported, medicated, packaged raw meat. Or table scraps that tend to be cooked as that's what humans eat.

Are you referring to the comment that it's a fact that cats are obligate carnivores? Yes, actually, that is a scientific fact and one size does fit all in that case.

No I'm referring to you saying a raw diet is better when you don't know how that person's raw food is. The quality of it, where they get the meat, etc

I hope our discussion helps someone and I enjoyed our debate :-)

 

[Azazel]

Yes! And that's exactly what I said in response to that Lisa Pierson argument and her not having evidence why cats get sick.


Of course not. I made a comparison to human diets because you said if kibbles are better than that's how humans should eat too.


You assume everyone will do a good job at preparing a raw diet and provide the same quality meat you do to your cats.


That's still more than how we can test our foods which we test just once, on our own cat.


A cat hunting for themselves is so much more fresh than store-bought processed, transported, medicated, packaged raw meat. Or table scraps that tend to be cooked as that's what humans eat.


No I'm referring to you saying a raw diet is better when you don't know how that person's raw food is. The quality of it, where they get the meat, etc

I hope our discussion helps someone and I enjoyed our debate :-)

My reference to humans eating kibbles was in response to your concern that humans wouldn't be able to properly make food for their cats. I'm basically trying to make the point that making cat food is not that complicated. I wasn't trying to say that humans' dietary needs are in any way similar to felines.

Most people I know who feed raw don't buy processed or medicated meat. I get mine directly from the farm. I realize not everyone has access to good meat sources, but many people use this as an excuse rather than trying to do some research to see if they do have access to good sources.

Of course I can't claim that any person who makes raw cat food is going to do it well. That would be silly. This thread was initially asking about Hill's and my response to that is that I do not like their ingredients list, their food is species-inappropriate, and they are also not transparent about their ingredients or the source of their food and therefore I would never feed it to my cats. You asked some questions about why, if Hill's is so bad for cats, some cats survive a long time on this diet - my response is that some humans will also survive a long time on an overly processed and unhealthy diet. That doesn't make what they're eating necessarily a "good" food and I'd rather feed my cat food that is fresh and healthy from the start rather than gamble that they will survive a long time on over processed kibble. The logic I follow is deductive - cats are obligate carnivores, so I try to feed them fresh food that is close to what an obligate carnivore should eat.

I also enjoy discussing feline nutrition, thanks for the discussion.