Raw & Vacations?

orange&white

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I am struggling with this myself now. How do I make sure my cat gets fed when I go out for the day/night or unexpectedly can't make it home? I am brand new to feeding food that isn't canned and preserved, and she can no longer have any dry food. This is stressful! I'm not even talking vacations or several days. I'm just talking during the course of 1 day. I can often end up leaving in the mid afternoon and not return home until 3am for example. One of my biggest concerns is that she often doesn't finish her meal and I don't like the idea of her possibly consuming food that has been sitting out for hours.

I bought the Cat Mate C500 and ran some testing today over the course of 10 hours. I am a researcher so I like to approach things scientifically. I measured the temp of the food in each slot every 2 hours over a 10 hour period (having the timer rotate the food dish every 2 hours). The ice packs don't cover the entirety of the bottom of the dish so it gave some variation in how chilled each dish became as it rotated. The food felt cold to the touch the entire time, but obviously it sat above safe temps after hour 0 and could begin growing bacteria.

Cat Mate C500 Temp
Slot Hour 0 Hour 2 Hour 4 Hour 6 Hour 8 Hour 10
0 43 51 51.4 59.5 54.3 58.6
1 43 48.2 49.1 53.1 60.8 58.5
2 45 48.2 48.6 50 56.3 51.5
3 51 56.7 49.3 50.2 52 59
4 45 57.2 56.5 51.8 53.1 56.5

I picked up the FrostyBowlz and am gonna see if those keep the food chilled better. I am mainly looking to see if I can buy myself a 10-12 hour window of the food sitting out safely for her, since she doesn't consume it all at once.

If I freeze small portions like in an ice cube tray and put them out in the chilled dish I'm sure it would stay fresh longer, and I will try testing that next to see how long it would take to defrost, but she still wouldn't consume it all at once and could still possibly consume it hours later without anyone to take it away.

This isn't even considering the fact that my cat HATES to consume cold food. It was no problem microwaving canned food, but I cannot nuke or heat up the new food as it would kill all the nutrients/supplements I add. I have her food frozen in daily portions, then I thaw the portions in the fridge and add the supplements to that daily amount and keep in the fridge. It's just easier to track that way. Still trying to figure out how I could safely warm her food a little when I'm home without sacrificing nutrients. Maybe a ziploc bag under warm water.

I'm a graduate student so I cannot afford a regular pet sitter in my area. If any of the veterans here have thoughts I'd much appreciate hearing them.
That's interesting.  I'm kind of a Math-Head too.

I would try the frozen portions in the Frosty Bowl (FB).  You could feed fresh-warmed in the AM, put some fresh-unwarmed in one FB, and a frozen chunk in a second FB.  That would provide three meals in a day.  If you're testing, I'd be interested in knowing temps on those and at what temperature your cat does go eat the portions that started out colder/frozen.

My cats are ok with eating cold refrigerated food, but sometimes a new tub is a little icy, so I warm it to body temperature.  I heat about 1/2" of water in a small saucepan until it almost boils, take it off the heat and set the food saucer on top with the saucepan lid on top of the food.  Kind of like a double-boiler, but I don't quite let the water boil.  In about 10 minutes, the warming plate brings the food temp up without cooking it at all.
 

purplesnurple

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That's interesting.  I'm kind of a Math-Head too.

I would try the frozen portions in the Frosty Bowl (FB).  You could feed fresh-warmed in the AM, put some fresh-unwarmed in one FB, and a frozen chunk in a second FB.  That would provide three meals in a day.  If you're testing, I'd be interested in knowing temps on those and at what temperature your cat does go eat the portions that started out colder/frozen.

My cats are ok with eating cold refrigerated food, but sometimes a new tub is a little icy, so I warm it to body temperature.  I heat about 1/2" of water in a small saucepan until it almost boils, take it off the heat and set the food saucer on top with the saucepan lid on top of the food.  Kind of like a double-boiler, but I don't quite let the water boil.  In about 10 minutes, the warming plate brings the food temp up without cooking it at all.
That is a great idea about the double boiler of sorts! I've also figured out that if I take her daily portion, remove half into another container and mix the supplements into the other half, I can microwave her non-supplemented portion so it's kind of hot then mix in the cold supplement portion to essentially create a "warm" meal.

I am going to try testing the Frosty Bowl today and I will let you know how the results compare! I only purchased 1 bowl for now so I will start with testing fridge temp food. Tomorrow I can try a frozen chunk for comparison (if it's necessary, but I'm hoping it will achieve safe temps with fridge food).

It is funny how individual cats are. My cat will turn her nose up and give me a look if I serve cold food, but put down warmed food and she wolfs it down happily.
 

orange&white

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That is a great idea about the double boiler of sorts! I've also figured out that if I take her daily portion, remove half into another container and mix the supplements into the other half, I can microwave her non-supplemented portion so it's kind of hot then mix in the cold supplement portion to essentially create a "warm" meal.

I am going to try testing the Frosty Bowl today and I will let you know how the results compare! I only purchased 1 bowl for now so I will start with testing fridge temp food. Tomorrow I can try a frozen chunk for comparison (if it's necessary, but I'm hoping it will achieve safe temps with fridge food).

It is funny how individual cats are. My cat will turn her nose up and give me a look if I serve cold food, but put down warmed food and she wolfs it down happily.
I'm very interesting in your Frosty Bowl results.  I only travel about 3 separate days a year to see my elderly dad.  I'm gone 32-35 hours, so I've been trying to decide what to do about cat food other than leaving canned or kibble (ugh!) out for them.  The one day I knew I would be out for a long day (locally) after getting my new kitten, I fed her a raw breakfast and left her with 30 pieces of grain-free kibble.  There was kibble-vomit on my area rug when I got home.  That's the only tummy-ache she's ever had.

Freeze-dried or dehydrated raw are maybe my best bets, but I'd much rather keep them on the fresh mix they're used to, if the Frosty Bowls works.
 

purplesnurple

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I'm very interesting in your Frosty Bowl results.  I only travel about 3 separate days a year to see my elderly dad.  I'm gone 32-35 hours, so I've been trying to decide what to do about cat food other than leaving canned or kibble (ugh!) out for them.  The one day I knew I would be out for a long day (locally) after getting my new kitten, I fed her a raw breakfast and left her with 30 pieces of grain-free kibble.  There was kibble-vomit on my area rug when I got home.  That's the only tummy-ache she's ever had.

Freeze-dried or dehydrated raw are maybe my best bets, but I'd much rather keep them on the fresh mix they're used to, if the Frosty Bowls works.
I will let you know all of my results then. I am only testing for a 10-12 hour run, but if there is anything particular you would like me to test for I'd be more than happy to do it (research is my happy place). :) I personally believe that any fresh or raw meats should be kept at a safe temp of 40-45 F or they run the risk of bacterial growth, especially in open air with cats nibbling and introducing bacteria. I'm testing Frosty Bowl and another product called Polar Bowl simultaneously.

If you are looking to extend to 32-35 hours that is a tough one, I can try putting a completely frozen hunks of food (varying sizes) into the bowls and taking timed temperature readings every few hours until it gets too warm and let you know how long it made it (including time point of defrosting where kitty could eat it). I had a thought that perhaps if the bowl was placed inside of an open insulated outer container (like an insulated lunch box or igloo or styrofoam) it may retain the cold ice pack longer. Like you could try cutting up one of these items to make shift a "feeding" bin to put the bowl in. The idea being that if the surrounding material deflected the cold back into the feeder/ice pack instead of pulling the cold away. But it has peaked my interest so I will let you know! It may take a few days to a week. ;)
 

orange&white

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I will let you know all of my results then. I am only testing for a 10-12 hour run, but if there is anything particular you would like me to test for I'd be more than happy to do it (research is my happy place). :) I personally believe that any fresh or raw meats should be kept at a safe temp of 40-45 F or they run the risk of bacterial growth, especially in open air with cats nibbling and introducing bacteria. I'm testing Frosty Bowl and another product called Polar Bowl simultaneously.

If you are looking to extend to 32-35 hours that is a tough one, I can try putting a completely frozen hunks of food (varying sizes) into the bowls and taking timed temperature readings every few hours until it gets too warm and let you know how long it made it (including time point of defrosting where kitty could eat it). I had a thought that perhaps if the bowl was placed inside of an open insulated outer container (like an insulated lunch box or igloo or styrofoam) it may retain the cold ice pack longer. Like you could try cutting up one of these items to make shift a "feeding" bin to put the bowl in. The idea being that if the surrounding material deflected the cold back into the feeder/ice pack instead of pulling the cold away. But it has peaked my interest so I will let you know! It may take a few days to a week. ;)
Cool!  Really interesting ideas.  You may end up with a patent and become a millionaire.  I am having a premonition of watching you on Shark Tank some day. 


I don't have much hope of keeping food fresh 32-35 hours, but I figure maybe 12 hours max.  I usually leave around 9am, and could put out fresh food (plus a chunk of frozen food in a Frosty).  After that, the best I think I would hope for is that they could have a second fresh meal (after defrost time) later the first day.  I'm usually home before 5pm the second day.  They wouldn't have any food on day 2 until I get home.  That's my best expectation.

I'm not terribly worried about germs.  I feed my kitten a final meal of the day just before bed, and sometimes she doesn't eat it all.  I think most cats are picky and finicky enough that they simply won't eat food that isn't fresh enough to them.  My senior cat, on the other hand, might eat the fresh food plus the frozen meat-sicle in the first 20 minutes and have nothing left until I came home the next day.  He's a Hoover vacuum with food.
 

purplesnurple

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Cool!  Really interesting ideas.  You may end up with a patent and become a millionaire.  I am having a premonition of watching you on Shark Tank some day. 


I don't have much hope of keeping food fresh 32-35 hours, but I figure maybe 12 hours max.  I usually leave around 9am, and could put out fresh food (plus a chunk of frozen food in a Frosty).  After that, the best I think I would hope for is that they could have a second fresh meal (after defrost time) later the first day.  I'm usually home before 5pm the second day.  They wouldn't have any food on day 2 until I get home.  That's my best expectation.

I'm not terribly worried about germs.  I feed my kitten a final meal of the day just before bed, and sometimes she doesn't eat it all.  I think most cats are picky and finicky enough that they simply won't eat food that isn't fresh enough to them.  My senior cat, on the other hand, might eat the fresh food plus the frozen meat-sicle in the first 20 minutes and have nothing left until I came home the next day.  He's a Hoover vacuum with food.
So the results of the Frosty Bowl is VERY promising! :) It solves my problem! So I froze the ice pack overnight, then put 1 large glob of food on one side and a smaller glob of food on the other side and began measuring the temps over time. These are the results I got from fridge temperature food (not frozen).

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Frosty Bowlz     

Large chunk

Hour 0  36.5

Hour 3  43.7

Hour 5  42.1

Hour 6  42.8

Hour 7  42.1

Hour 8  43.2

Hour 9  45.3

Hour 10  48.6

Hour 12  56.7                 

Small chunk      

Hour 0  36.5      

Hour 3  39.4      

Hour 5  39.2      

Hour 6  41         

Hour 7  40.5      

Hour 8  39.9      

Hour 9  42.1      

Hour 10  44.6   

Hour 12  55.4

So as you can see, the large chunk of food stayed safe until hour 9 while the small chunk stayed safe until hour 10 or 11 (I accidentally missed the 11 hour reading lol). My theory was correct, if you spread the food out in the bowl so it's a thinner layer (smaller chunk) it will stay cold much longer as the surface area maintains more contact with the cold bowl. I think you could safely leave it out 10-11 hours at fridge temp plus an extra 2 hours once it warms before any bacterial growth would begin to set in. I think it could buy you 12 hours and that's just with fridge food. If you try this with frozen food you maybe could buy a few more hours. However, the ice pack is completely warm to the touch at hour 12, so it only lasts that long.

I hope this data helps! Keep in mind the variables though, by setting the bowl on a surface that doesn't transfer heat (in my case tempered glass) I think it lasted longer, plus my ambient room temperature is only 65-68 F. I'm gonna order some more Frosty Bowlz now haha. I can try a frozen chunk of food for you once I get extra bowls if you like.

As for the Polar Bowl product... fail! It was above safe temp at hour 3 and completely warm by hour 5.
 

orange&white

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Thanks!  That is very helpful. 


For me, that makes the decision to buy Frosty Bowls instead of freeze-dried or dehydrated food very easy.  I'd rather purchase something I can use indefinitely and keep their diet consistent, rather than an expensive consumable product that would inflict a sudden, temporary diet change.

I'd be curious to see the results of frozen food in a Frosty Bowl, but don't inconvenience yourself.  9-12 hours is plenty long, and I would start with frozen.  I don't have any expectations of the cats having food the second day until I'm home.  My house would be much warmer during a Spring/Summer trip, but the same or cooler when I go for Thanksgiving and Christmas.  The food bowls are on cool ceramic tile.

Anyway, that works for me.  Thank you so much for testing and posting the results!  I'll look for your invoice in the mail.  Haha.
 

sophie1

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Just to let y'all know....

The idea that food is "unsafe" the instant it has warmed to > 45 degrees is really overblown.   Bacteria don't multiply that quickly, and your cats are built to handle it anyhow.  I've been free feeding raw for over 3 years now, and there has never been a problem.  If the food goes off while it's sitting out, the cats won't eat it.

I assume that if I actually got a batch of food contaminated with a virulent strain like E coli O:157 or shigella, there would indeed be a problem.  Frankly, if this happens I doubt very much that you can protect yourself no matter what you do - kitchens are just not designed to run like biohazard labs.  I feel the best way to minimize the risk to a level that's probably no worse than the risk of feeding any other commercial pet food, is to avoid high risk sources.  If you look at the instances of food poisoning caused by food-born bacteria, you'll see it's almost always hamburger meat, which increases the risk exponentially since meat from literally thousands of steers can go through the same grinder between cleanings, or vegetables irrigated by water contaminated with runoff from feedlots.

To be extra safe, I avoid using grocery-bought meats of any kind, since they're usually inches from going bad due to how long it takes to get through the food delivery network.  The fresh products I get from Hare Today or trusted local sources are fine to leave out, as are HPP foods.  The Frosty Bowl is great for keeping them fresh, and lets me leave food out for > 24 hours.

So back to cat sitting.  If I were dealing with one meal fed cat and could only afford one visit per day, I'd put HPP, canned, or a cooked food in one of those automatic feeders with an ice pack - either nuggets/medallions or freeze dried, NOT the bites.  The nuggets/medallions can go in frozen, but it really doesn't matter.  The ice pack will help keep the food from drying out, or you could ask the sitter to add a bit of water.  More than one cat though, and this is likely to result in one cat eating everyone else's meal!  I wouldn't do this without some trial runs beforehand.
 

orange&white

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Just to let y'all know....

The idea that food is "unsafe" the instant it has warmed to > 45 degrees is really overblown.   Bacteria don't multiply that quickly, and your cats are built to handle it anyhow.  I've been free feeding raw for over 3 years now, and there has never been a problem.  If the food goes off while it's sitting out, the cats won't eat it.
I'm less concerned about the bacteria because my kitten won't eat stale food.  At that point, there's not much point in leaving food sitting out that won't be eaten after whatever time limit the cat sets.  She's hungry, but not enough to eat "old" food.

My dog loves cat food leftovers though.  lol  Dogs will eat several days old carrion and road kill...so he eats any remaining overnight bits while I dish out more fresh food to the kitten.  Dogs have much less sensitive digestive systems than cats.
 

purplesnurple

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Just to let y'all know....

The idea that food is "unsafe" the instant it has warmed to > 45 degrees is really overblown.   Bacteria don't multiply that quickly, and your cats are built to handle it anyhow.  I've been free feeding raw for over 3 years now, and there has never been a problem.  If the food goes off while it's sitting out, the cats won't eat it.

I assume that if I actually got a batch of food contaminated with a virulent strain like E coli O:157 or shigella, there would indeed be a problem.  Frankly, if this happens I doubt very much that you can protect yourself no matter what you do - kitchens are just not designed to run like biohazard labs.  I feel the best way to minimize the risk to a level that's probably no worse than the risk of feeding any other commercial pet food, is to avoid high risk sources.  If you look at the instances of food poisoning caused by food-born bacteria, you'll see it's almost always hamburger meat, which increases the risk exponentially since meat from literally thousands of steers can go through the same grinder between cleanings, or vegetables irrigated by water contaminated with runoff from feedlots.

To be extra safe, I avoid using grocery-bought meats of any kind, since they're usually inches from going bad due to how long it takes to get through the food delivery network.  The fresh products I get from Hare Today or trusted local sources are fine to leave out, as are HPP foods.  The Frosty Bowl is great for keeping them fresh, and lets me leave food out for > 24 hours.

So back to cat sitting.  If I were dealing with one meal fed cat and could only afford one visit per day, I'd put HPP, canned, or a cooked food in one of those automatic feeders with an ice pack - either nuggets/medallions or freeze dried, NOT the bites.  The nuggets/medallions can go in frozen, but it really doesn't matter.  The ice pack will help keep the food from drying out, or you could ask the sitter to add a bit of water.  More than one cat though, and this is likely to result in one cat eating everyone else's meal!  I wouldn't do this without some trial runs beforehand.
I work in a BSL-2 lab with cell cultures and bacteria so I am familiar with their growth. Bacteria can and will begin to multiply within a few hours of reaching an optimal temperature for growth. Refrigeration doesn't mean there isn't already bacteria in the food, because most likely there is, it just prevents them from multiplying to a level that would be toxic or cause illness by slowing growth. This is especially true for food left out in the open exposed to air and pets. And not all cats will turn their nose up to spoiled food. My cat doesn't. In fact, she had salmonella and E-coli poisoning many years ago from a bad batch of Feline's Pride and can no longer eat a raw diet. I feed home cooked, but it's still the same principle. With raw I would be extra cautious even from a reliable source. And I agree it can happen at any point even from food that was just placed down from the fridge or freshly thawed if it was already contaminated, but I'm not going to add additional risk to the equation with my kitty and her sensitive stomach since she cannot fight off the bacteria very well.

Everyone will have their own opinion and experiences. I was just sharing mine and helping out with some data from the product itself to help others make their own decisions. :)
 

olgakennedy

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haw the portions in the fridge and add the supplements to that daily amount and keep in the fridge. It's just easier to track that way. Still trying to figure out how I could safely warm her food a little when I'm home without sacrificing nutrients. Maybe a ziploc bag under warm water.

I'm a graduate student so I cannot afford a regular pet sitter in my area. If any of the veterans here have thoughts I'd much appreciate hearing them. :)[/QUOTE]
I am struggling with this myself now. How do I make sure my cat gets fed when I go out for the day/night or unexpectedly can't make it home? I am brand new to feeding food that isn't canned and preserved, and she can no longer have any dry food. This is stressful! I'm not even talking vacations or several days. I'm just talking during the course of 1 day. I can often end up leaving in the mid afternoon and not return home until 3am for example. One of my biggest concerns is that she often doesn't finish her meal and I don't like the idea of her possibly consuming food that has been sitting out for hours.

I bought the Cat Mate C500 and ran some testing today over the course of 10 hours. I am a researcher so I like to approach things scientifically. I measured the temp of the food in each slot every 2 hours over a 10 hour period (having the timer rotate the food dish every 2 hours). The ice packs don't cover the entirety of the bottom of the dish so it gave some variation in how chilled each dish became as it rotated. The food felt cold to the touch the entire time, but obviously it sat above safe temps after hour 0 and could begin growing bacteria.

Cat Mate C500 Temp
Slot Hour 0 Hour 2 Hour 4 Hour 6 Hour 8 Hour 10
0 43 51 51.4 59.5 54.3 58.6
1 43 48.2 49.1 53.1 60.8 58.5
2 45 48.2 48.6 50 56.3 51.5
3 51 56.7 49.3 50.2 52 59
4 45 57.2 56.5 51.8 53.1 56.5

I picked up the FrostyBowlz and am gonna see if those keep the food chilled better. I am mainly looking to see if I can buy myself a 10-12 hour window of the food sitting out safely for her, since she doesn't consume it all at once.

If I freeze small portions like in an ice cube tray and put them out in the chilled dish I'm sure it would stay fresh longer, and I will try testing that next to see how long it would take to defrost, but she still wouldn't consume it all at once and could still possibly consume it hours later without anyone to take it away.

This isn't even considering the fact that my cat HATES to consume cold food. It was no problem microwaving canned food, but I cannot nuke or heat up the new food as it would kill all the nutrients/supplements I add. I have her food frozen in daily portions, then I thaw the portions in the fridge and add the supplements to that daily amount and keep in the fridge. It's just easier to track that way. Still trying to figure out how I could safely warm her food a little when I'm home without sacrificing nutrients. Maybe a ziploc bag under warm water.

I'm a graduate student so I cannot afford a regular pet sitter in my area. If any of the veterans here have thoughts I'd much appreciate hearing them. :)
 

olgakennedy

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P purplesnurple Hi can you send a link to the frosty bowls that you tested? I want to buy these and amazon has couple different ones.

Thank you in advance!
 
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