Raw Feeding & Cornish Game Hen Bones

[r0n1n]

I just recently acquired two furry monsters: Ronin (11 weeks, now 14) and Bella (2 years+) about three weeks ago.  I'll describe their diet and if anyone has any comments or critiques let me know.

They were previously fed a mix of raw meat, kibble and canned food.  I started them on pure raw from the beginning and Ronin has never looked back.  Bella still seems to miss the free-feed kibble and has been coming along, if sulkily.

I am feeding a mix of Frankenprey, Whole prey and (semi) commercial ground.

Commercial Ground: I make my ground food using pre-mixed supplements from Feline's Pride (Raw Made Easy Kit) and Alnutrin.  

Feline's Pride: I've found that I need 1lb of ground meat for every 2 pounds of chunks to keep the food reasonably viscous.  I've tried with less but it gets extremely watery and messy so you do need some ground meat to soak it up and hold it together.  I prefer feeding chunks for dental reasons but Bella's not a huge fan so she tries to eat around them.  I've been having a bit more success with strips rather than hunks on her.  Ronin is already an expert and can handle any shape or size.  The kit comes with salmon oil tablets and liquid vitamin A&E (I think) capsules to add to their formula.  They advised me via email to leave out the vitamin tablets if I wanted to add liver to their recipe but they get enough liver from other sources I think.

Alnutrin:  I got the Alnutrin without calcium as I found a source of whole ground rabbit (Bones2Go.com) in my city.  This is a bit easier to work with than the FP since it's just a powder but it's not a lot of work either way.  If you already have ground meat then it's five minutes.  They use powdered egg yolk whereas FP requires fresh yolks but I'm sure they'll survive it.  

Packing is the major time sink for both commercial ground mixes - I try to pack their meals in small zip lock baggies but it's very time consuming.  I did just discover this weekend that an OJ bottle cut up makes a good funnel/bag holder.

Mice: Ronin's been getting at least one mouse a day.  Bella's had a few attempts at chewing on them but always spits them out.  I've put Fortiflora and parmesan on them but she just licks it off.  I'm not sure if she objects to the taste or the chewing.

Frankenprey: I've been buying Cornish Hens ($5 each) and hacking them up.  I've read they are 39% bone so I add enough chunked meat, hearts, gizzards, liver and gizzards to approximate a 80:10:10 animal.  Ronin loves bones but I haven't been able to get Bella interested.  

So my question:  What do other Frankenprey feeders do with the larger bones? I've been  breaking the larger bones in a mortar and pestle but Ronin got a large bone stuck in his mouth last night that he had tried to swallow whole - I had to remove it with tweezers.  He had been pretty good about chewing until now but this piece was either not smashed up enough (too big) or smashed up too much (i.e. it tempted him to eat it).  What do you think?

 

[goingpostal]

I have never had a real problem with larger bone, if my cat cannot get through them she leaves them, nothing on a game hen should be too difficult to consume but if their jaw strength isn't up maybe.  My cat is quite old with a missing tooth and handles thigh and leg bones pretty well when she feels like it. 

 

[r0n1n]

Thanks GoingPostal - so you just give her the whole leg bone and let them sort it out themselves?  You won't try to smash it?

Re: Jaw strength.  Bella tires easily from minimal chewing but she's slowly improving.  She'll often give up after few chews on a heart/gizzard.  But it's really noticeable with Ronin who'll come along and clean it up in one or two bites.  He chomps through a mouse like it was made of mince.  But he might still be too small to get through a leg bone.  I might leave it intact next time and see what he does.  He sometimes tries running off with it which is part of thre reason I've been trying to break it down.

 

[ldg]

I don't smash up the bones, but I do sometimes cut the chunks into smaller pieces. The main things is to leave it inside the meat and skin. My cats chomp on it that way to break up the bone and then swallow it - so no bits of bone to get stuck in their mouths, because it's "wrapped" inside of meat and skin. :dk: I've only had that problem once, and it was with a piece of bone in ground food.

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by R0n1n  <snipped> Mice: Ronin's been getting at least one mouse a day.

Hi R0n1n

,

I have been feeding whole live prey for years now. I have fed various species of mice (Acomys sp, Mus musculus, and when my pairs/trios are breeding  Muscardinus avellanarius). Plus, my pure Felis silvestris catus are indoor/outdoor cats and I have seen them eat plenty of wild Peromyscus maniculatus.

 Bella's had a few attempts at chewing on them but always spits them out.

Anyway, they key to getting a purely indoor (I am assuming your cats completely indoor) cat, to accept whole prey is to try different "life stages" in the mouses life cycle. I would assume a "pinky mouse" (http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/daybydaybabies.cfm) which are the first four picture's on that website, are the first "life stage" to try. Once, your cat(s) are reliably eating the the "pinky" mice, I would go to the "fuzzy" stage, which is picture number five on the above  website. Again, once your cat(s) are reliably eating the "fuzzies" you can start to feed the "hopper stage". Those picture's are: six threw eleven on that website. Finally, once the cat(s) are eating them for about a month, then you can try to reintroduce SMALL adult mice and then "work your way up" to whatever size adult mouse you wish. 

 I've put Fortiflora and parmesan on them but she just licks it off.  I'm not sure if she objects to the taste or the chewing.

Those are great "toppers" and I would recommend you put them on the different "life stages" of the mice. <snipped>

If you are looking for some good sources for F/T feeder mice, with all the different "life stages", I would  recomend any of these three: Rodent Pro (http://www.rodentpro.com/catalog.asp), Mice Direct (https://micedirect.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21), and Big Apple Pet Supply (http://www.bigappleherp.com/Mice).

This is a site, that defines all the different "life stages": http://www.rodentpro.com/feeder-mice-guide.asp.

Please note, I breed my own life prey items (if you want to see a complete list, just ask) . But, I know most people won't  feed live prey (which is fine with me

), and do not breed there own F/T prey items. I have dealt with all three companies over the years and I found them to be excellent. I ONLY started to breed my own prey items because it was more "cost effective". Since, over the years, I have had a pure Leptailurus serval, F1 Bengal, F3 Savannah (who can be seen on this site) and various pure Felis silvestris catus.

Hopefully, I made some sense

. If you have any questions and need any clarification just left me know.

 

[r0n1n]

Cat Person:  Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I have three sizes of mice: Hoppers, Weanlings (Small) and Adults.  I knew many people go through the pinky->adult life cycle but I was trying to skip ahead since the pinkies don't have fully formed bones and can cause diarrhea (when fed in excess).  Worst case scenario is that I have get some pinkies but I'm holding out hope I can avoid it since feeding mice is an expensive hobby as it is.  FWIW Ronin started on hoppers without problems at 11 weeks.  Bella is the first cat I've ever met that won't eat rodents.  Since we got her as an adult she's probably going to need more convincing.  I've fooled her into eating some hopper pieces (butchering a hopper is some fiddly handiwork) mixed into other food, but she won't eat them knowingly. 

I have no issue with feeding live prey but it isn't practical for me.  The indoor/outdoor cats I grew up with used to bring home some giant rats, some of which they'd eat and some of which they'd let me catch and dispatch in my own clumsy way (Corner, bag, smack).  Rats won't go down without a fight either.  

I use Big Cheese Rodents which is in Texas and is closer to me.  Their website sucks but the mice were very clean.  They mostly have a good reputation on herp boards.

LDG:  Thanks for the clarification.  I did try leaving an large piece of back intact today and as scary as it was, Ronin crunched right through it.  It was actually kind of nice - he was too busy concentrating on his bone to steal Bella's food - which he usually does despite the fact she gets the exact same stuff he does, minus the bones and mice.

 

[cat person]

<snipped>

Cat Person:  Thanks for taking the time to reply.

You are very welcome R0n1n

.

I have three sizes of mice: Hoppers, Weanlings (Small) and Adults.

Good good

. If, I had known you where already ahead of the game, I would have not mention all the "life stages". I do apologize.

I knew many people go through the pinky->adult life cycle but I was trying to skip ahead

With the 11 week old kitten that is MOST certainly possible. I was assuming (note the word in assuming

) is that the cat(s) that where not consuming the mice where an adult or "teenage" cat. Hence, would need to "learn" to eat the F/T prey via the "life cycle" feeding method. But, I am guessing, I am wrong (insert sigh face). Again, I apologize

.

since the pinkies don't have fully formed bones and can cause diarrhea (when fed in excess).

Yes, that is very true

.

 Worst case scenario is that I have get some pinkies but I'm holding out hope I can avoid it

How old is the cat, that you are trying to convince that mice are an actual food source? If it is an older pure domestic cat, I suspect it would take a LOT of pinkies to cause the diarrhea. However, with a small kitten, like 16 weeks or less, then I am fairly sure, excess pinkies could easily cause diarrhea,

since feeding mice is an expensive hobby as it is.

That is very true too. That is why I started breeding my own prey items.

 FWIW Ronin started on hoppers without problems at 11 weeks.

I should have pointed out, that the younger the cat, the "later in the life cycle" or the larger the prey item you can start with. Since, you kittens are more "impressionable" about there "food source". Plus, after all, a kittens natural play is to teach hunting "skills"/technique. So, they would "naturally" consume a mouse easier/quicker then an adult Felis silvestris catus.

Of course, the older the cat(s), the smaller/"earlier in the life cycle" a prey item you need to start with and "work up". Since, they are already "set in there ways" regarding what they consider to be "food".

 Bella is the first cat I've ever met that won't eat rodents.

Have you tried any other F/T prey items such as 1-7 day old chicks, Quail, or weanling rats? That is something you might consider.

Since we got her as an adult she's probably going to need more convincing.

Yes, with adults, that have lived indoors or a majority of there time indoors, it will take a lot of "convincing". Just be patient. Which you definitely seem to be

.

 I've fooled her into eating some hopper pieces (butchering a hopper is some fiddly handiwork)

That is really really good, IMHO. My butchering is fiddly too. I am very glad that, my cats, "dispatch" there own food

.

mixed into other food, but she won't eat them knowingly. 

Over time (weeks or months), reduce the mix, until, she is eating more mouse and less "mix" (what are you mixing it with, I am guessing some type of canned food). Also, if you are indeed using canned cat food, once the "mix" is more butchered mouse, you can try applying that cat food, to larger bits/parts of the mouse.

I have no issue with feeding live prey but it isn't practical for me.

I think it is VERY cool, that someone else isn't "grossed out" or think it is "cruel" to feed live prey items.

The indoor/outdoor cats I grew up with used to bring home some giant rats, some of which they'd eat and some of which they'd let me catch and dispatch in my own clumsy way (Corner, bag, smack).

My pure Felis silvestris catus are very good at dispatching most rats. But, now, only like the ones I breed. I guess because they are the "appropriate" size.

Rats won't go down without a fight either.  

That is FOR SURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use Big Cheese Rodents which is in Texas and is closer to me.  

I am VERY very glad you found something you are "satisfied" with and is local.

Their website sucks but the mice were very clean.

All that matters, IMHO, are that the prey items are "CLEAN"

.

 They mostly have a good reputation on herp boards.

That is great. I normally recomend checking reputable herp/herpetology boards when looking for a good source for F/T prey items <snipped>

 

[ritz]

For bones that are hard (like veal, beef or goat), I throw them away.  The ferals I fed won't touch them.

I buy quail and rabbit primarily for the bones; the small quail and rabbits yield more bone than usuable meat.  But Ritz loves both of these, so it's a treat for her.

Ritz turned up her nose at chicken wings 18 months ago when I started her on Raw, but the other day a wing was in a packet of chicken organs (including thymus, pancreas, testicles).  I gave her the wing and she chewed it all up.  Course she did the same thing with an entire chicken head!

 

[r0n1n]

In case anyone is interested here's an update on this... (Long winded)

Bella's started eating whole hoppers.  She finally got hungry enough one day to try one and found it was acceptable eating (not before trying to steal food from Ronin, also a first).  She also ate a gizzard - so it appears that slowly her jaw strength is improving.  I wouldn't say it's her favourite thing in the world but she's had one a day for the last four days.

I promoted Ronin to a weanling (small adult) today.  This was kind of surprising. It doesn't look much bigger to me but while he normally eats his hopper in 5 bites, this one intimidated him.  He tried stealing Bella's food and had to be put back a few times and then he had a long think about it.  He started tail first - it was noticeably crunchier than the hoppers and took him a few bites just get the tail off.  The whole mouse took him a lot more time to eat than usual... maybe 5 minutes?  Lots of pauses, lots of thinking and a lot of crunching. 

Ronin's been having some seriously stinky stools lately.  They're mostly solid but sticky and smelly.  He got some left on his bum yesterday so he ran straight over to my office and scooched his bum along the carpet dog-style for about 30" leaving a smear.  Thanks!

I have some theories about why this could be:

(1) He was on hoppers and the hoppers' bones were too soft. 

(2) The Frankenprey bits bags I made up were supposed to dilute the Cornish hen from 39% bone down to 10%.  Either the figure is wrong or my mixing is bad but it just doesn't seem like enough bone.  (900g hen (sans organs) = 351g bone => total Frankenprey mass  = 3.5kg => 2.6kg meat/organs need to be added?)

(3) He does tend to try to steal chunks and leave mince.  Since I mix the Alnutrin/Feline's Pride into the mince the calcium is more concentrated in there.  He may just be getting too much meat.

(4) He's got some GI issues.

I've taken him off Frankenprey for the past few days but it hasn't fixed it.  I'm also trying to just feed him mince first and I've even added a pinch of eggshell just to make sure there's no residual imbalances.  And I've just promoted him to weanlings today.  My current plan is to try putting him a Fortiflora binge for a few days (yes, I know what people think about it but it's what I have right now - Nexabiotic doesn't sell in stores).  

Any other suggestions?  Is my Frankenprey maths off?  I have to travel for a week from Monday so I'd really like to sort this out ASAP!

The puzzling thing is that AFAIK Bella is completely fine.  She produces a small "victory poop" every ~ 1-2 days.  The only thing she doesn't eat is the Frankenprey.  Are kittens different with raw?

 

[vball91]

Here are my thoughts.

1. I'm not sure what you mean by bones being too soft. Are you saying because the bones are maybe not fully formed, they don't have the calcium you would expect? What about all the people who feed pinkies? I have no experience with feeding whole prey, so this whole topic is a little confusing to me.

2. Your math seems right to me. That should get you 10% bone.

3. I'm wondering if you should just try meat/organ chunks and add calcium (since it seems you have eggshell powder already) to achieve a Ca ratio of 1.1:1? Since that's impossible to do using bone, this might get you a more precise calcium balance which helps you narrow down the problem. If you know the Ca ratio is good, but if he's still having issues, you know something else is going on.

4. Possible. I'm assuming you've checked/treated him for all parasite issues?

 

[r0n1n]

Hi vball91, thanks for weighing in.

(1) The bones in babies (mice, humans etc.) aren't fully formed and still cartilaginous.  Pinkies are notorious for giving carnivorous pets of all kinds (ferrets, snakes, cats) diarrhea when fed regularly.  I thought hoppers would be OK but the weanling I fed him today was audibly much, much crunchier.  Since we just start Bella on hoppers I guess we'll find out soon if it makes a difference.

(2) Thanks!  I don't know if you get meatier hens than others but it still seems like an awful lot of meat:bone.  There are days where he doesn't get any bones from the Frankenprey bits bag.

(3) I was wondering about the range of acceptable ratios.  Feline's Pride seems to sit on the lower side of the scale at 1:1.  The alnutrin mix should be OK but I don't know the exact ratios (we buy pre-ground rabbit & duck that's nominally 80:10:10).  Have you ever heard of two cats needing different ratios?

(4) TBH I haven't.  He's been fine up until now and never been outside or eaten anything other than the raw I feed both him and Bella.  If I can't solve it soon I'll take him in to get a check up but I think most people would consider his stools today - they're just not the "raw" victory stools like Bella's. 

 

[r0n1n]

I just noticed this thread from a while back... It's possible that chicken bones have less calcium than mice.  Auntie Crazy (and others) seems to have concluded that 10% chicken bones didn't work for their cats.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/192463/prey-model-and-bones#post_2771401

 

[mschauer]

I just noticed this thread from a while back... It's possible that chicken bones have less calcium than mice.  Auntie Crazy (and others) seems to have concluded that 10% chicken bones didn't work for their cats.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/192463/prey-model-and-bones#post_2771401

Oh, that thread!

You have to remember that is a pretty old thread and at the time all of the thread participants with the exception of DoorOpener were newcomers to raw feeding and we were all still stumbling around trying to figure things out.  

It's interesting that DoorOpener said 16% bone works better. I thought most raw feeders found that < 10% works best. 

 

[r0n1n]

Oh, that thread!

You have to remember that is a pretty old thread and at the time all of the thread participants with the exception of DoorOpener were newcomers to raw feeding and we were all still stumbling around trying to figure things out.  

It's interesting that DoorOpener said 16% bone works better. I thought most raw feeders found that < 10% works best. 

Yes, I'm still stumbling around too.  

I have seen a few people say they had to start higher than 10% and then tapered back over time.  

Like many newbies I'm almost sure I'm over-thinking things.  I'm trying to learn about three different feeding styles (prey, frankenprey and ground raw) simultaneously which isn't making it easier.  I think this is what scares many people away from raw feeding.  Having to think!

I'm giving Frankenprey a break - Ronin's been off it for a few days and his last stool was pretty good.  Not victory, but not stinky.  I'm going to come back to it when I have more time to experiment - I still think it's probably the most sustainable model for me in the long term.