Raw egg yolk making Mazy and Jennie fat

[ldg]

But I don't buy MCHA. I buy NOW "calcium hydroxyapatite."

 

[ldg]

Oh - it IS MCHA: http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements...roxyapatite-120-Veg-Capsules.htm#.UaUC55y-brg

 

[carolina]

But I don't buy MCHA. I buy NOW "calcium hydroxyapatite."

I am confused......
http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements...roxyapatite-120-Veg-Capsules.htm#.UaUC58so7IU

I was under the impression you buy is MCHA..... The "A", as far as I know, is for the HydroxyApatite......

 

[mschauer]

Yeah, I remember when they changed the name. It used to be called MCHA. At the time I thought they just changed the name because when someone is looking for a calcium supplement they aren't likely to know that a product called 'MCHA' will fit the bill. Looking at the product label I think it is still MCHA though. The front label indicates a capsule contains 250 mg hydroxyapatite which is the amount contained in 1 gram of MCHA. Unless the capsules are a lot smaller than they used to be each one holds 1 gram.

Edit For clarity: I didn't see LDG's and Carolina's posts before I posted.  

 

[carolina]

Oh, we crossed :lol3::lol3::lol3:

 

[mschauer]

Oh, we crossed

Yup! Nothing like making a confusing topic even more confusing! 

 

[carolina]

Yup! Nothing like making a confusing topic even more confusing! 

hehe

 

[ldg]

OK, so JUST to be clear: The NOW brand supplement, Calcium Hydroxyapatite is, in fact, microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite, known as MCHA.

"Calcium Hydroxyapatitie" is a component of MCHA, and MCHA is freeze dried bone that most likely does not include the cartilage.

 

[mschauer]

OK, so JUST to be clear: The NOW brand supplement, Calcium Hydroxyapatite is, in fact, microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite, known as MCHA.

"Calcium Hydroxyapatitie" is a component of MCHA, and MCHA is freeze dried bone that most likely does not include the cartilage.

     

 

[lcat4]

Hi, I was following along for the egg yolk info, but thought I'd pipe in for the freeze dried bone conversation. 

When I first started feeding my cats raw, I used the premix supplement TC Feline (US version), which uses the freeze dried bone (MCHA) as the calcium source, for all four cats.  In January, I continued using that premix for my two girls, but switched the boys to Alnutrin with Eggshell because they have kidney issues and I wanted to lower their phosphorus intake.  Last month I was looking at the TC Feline website for something else, when I noticed that Natascha has changed her premix formula (Canada only) to include Calcium Carbonate - Marine source, not eggshell - in addition to the MCHA bone, instead of only using the freeze dried bone.  She said that using the MCHA bone as the sole source of calcium would require too much phosphorus and calcium to be added to a cat's diet - beyond what would be natural to a cat eating whole prey.  Here's a link to her ingredients list that goes through a long discussion of both calcium carbonate and freeze dried bone (scroll, one follows the other):  http://tcfeline.com/category/tcfeline-ingredients/

After reading that last month, I started rotating my girls between the TC Feline (US), which still only uses the MCHA bone in their premix, with the Alnutrin with Eggshell premix.  I'm not sure they are getting 50/50, it's probably more like 60/40. 

Anyway, just thought that might be interesting for you to read, as a part of the conversation.  Lori

 

[mschauer]

Hi Lori,

That's interesting about the TCFeline. I knew they used MCHA. The switch to MCHA+calcium carbonate must have been very recent. I've actually done that myself once or twice. Using just the MCHA you have to use A LOT to get the proper calcium/phosphorus ratio.

Besides lowering the phosphorus it also lowers the price! 

Thanks for sharing that!

 

[ldg]

So is the TCfeline site saying, in essence, that prey model raw feeders using only bone are providing too much phosphorus to their cats when calcium and phosphorus are correctly balanced? (Though actually knowing the Ca ratio when using fresh bone is next to impossible).

...or just that it's not a "correct" "prey model" when fresh bone is used with meat and organs?

:dk:

 

[mschauer]

So is the TCfeline site saying, in essence, that prey model raw feeders using only bone are providing too much phosphorus to their cats when calcium and phosphorus are correctly balanced? (Though actually knowing the Ca ratio when using fresh bone is next to impossible).

...or just that it's not a "correct" "prey model" when fresh bone is used with meat and organs?

The first, that there is too much phosphorus and calcium. She says the reason is:

The reason for this is, that the total weight of a mouse, for example, is not made up entirely of pure flesh (meat) and bone alone. There is a great deal of other tissue like skin, hair, and entrails which add volume to the mouse and supply nutrients to the cat, but contain little phosphorus. These parts are not included in the raw meat diet, and the volume of the raw meat diet is almost entirely made up of pure meat, liver, and egg yolk, which are all high in phosphorus.

So, she is saying that because a prey model diet contains only the high phosphorus parts of an animal that so much calcium needs to be added to balance it that we end up with too much of both calcium and phosphorus.

The Plantinga study says the mice that compose the feral cat diet had about 2.9 g/100g DM calcium and 1.7 g/100g DM phosphorus for a Ca of 1.7. My turkey recipe that contains turkey meat, heart, liver and gizzards and eggs and MCHA as the only calcium source added to achieve a Ca of 1.7 contains 4.5 g/100g DM calcium and 2.6 g/100g DM phosphorus.

So, my turkey recipe with a Ca target of 1.7 to match that of a mouse and with MCHA as a bone substitute contains quite a bit more calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams DM than a mouse would have.

If a Ca of 1.5 were used in my recipe instead, the calcium comes down to 2.6 g/100 g DM and the phosphorus to 1.7 g/100 g DM. Pretty close to the mouse.

I actually target a ratio of 1.1 which results in 1.2 g/100 g DM calcium and 1.15g/100 g DM phosphorus. 

So I guess she is right that if someone were really trying to mimic the Ca of an actual prey animal (mouse) using real bone but only meat, liver and another organ or 2 they would end up with a lot more Ca and P than a mouse actually has.

But how many raw feeders really know the Ca of what they feed anyway???

 

[ldg]

I remember - the Plantinga study also found an average Ca of 1.5 in feral cat diets. :nod: I remember it was speculated that it was higher than the normally recommended 1.1:1 (up to 1.3:1) because of the bioavailability of minerals in fresh bone.

But we also know from various studies that bioavailability of ground/powdered stuff is higher than non-ground or powdered.

For those not familiar, this is the Plantinga study: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8404219 (The full study is available for free).

 

[otto]

Egg yolk has 3 times more phosphorus than calcium so it is out of balance. The 2 1/2 yolks you are feeding a week adds 1.5 oz or 6% to her weekly total. That's a bit more than I would say could be safely ignored. To balance the phosphorus in the egg yolk you'd need to add 110 mg of calcium/week.

Depending on what your calcium/phosphorus ratio is without the egg yolk you might be be OK with not adding more calcium with the yolk (in contradiction to my statement above). 

Oh dear. Soooooo confused.

I need to break this down in terms I can understand. I am not an unintelligent person, but my brain is tired and percentages and ratios have never been my strong point anyway.

Please bear with me and speak very slowly (:lol3

What is the phos to calcium ratio for a cat supposed to be again?

For comparison sake to what it is supposed to be, what is the phos to calcium ratio in an egg yolk?

Also for comparison, what is the phos to calcium ratio in an ounce of muscle meat and one tenth of an ounce of liver (1.1 oz total) BEFORE adding any calcium or bone?

When my cats get one ounce of muscle meat with .1 ounce of liver (total 1.1 oz) I add a very slightly rounded "smidgeon" (1/32 teaspoon) of egg shell calcium to the serving. Strange as it may sound, it took me a long time to master that concept, with Laurie's patient help.

I explained that, so you can have some idea of how I do things here. Based on the above method, how much egg shell calcium do I add to .35 oz of egg yolk for balance?

I don't balance by the week, generally speaking. I balance by the day. By the meal, rather, because they get one PMR meal a day.

Thank you for sticking with me and helping. Mazy has had the extra egg yolk (.35 oz four times a week) for a month now, with no extra calcium to balance it. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I hope I haven't messed her up.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by otto  

I need to break this down in terms I can understand. I am not an unintelligent person, but my brain is tired and percentages and ratios have never been my strong point anyway.

Please bear with me and speak very slowly (

)

 Oh, believe me, I understand. I can't tell you how many times I felt like my brain was leaking out of my ears from thinking about this stuff! 

What is the phos to calcium ratio for a cat supposed  to be again?

1.1 to 1.5. Laurie said in her post above that the upper number is 1.3. I remember it as 1.5 but I may be remembering wrong.

Also for comparison, what is the phos to calcium ratio in an ounce of muscle meat and one tenth of an ounce of liver (1.1 oz total) BEFORE adding any calcium or bone?

If it is skinless chicken thigh and chicken liver, .05. There is almost no calcium so it is a tiny number.

I explained that, so you can have some idea of how I do things here. Based on the above method, how much egg shell calcium do I add to .35 oz of egg yolk for balance?

If you were to add about 1/60 tsp of eggshell to .35 oz of egg yolk your eggshell/egg yolk mixture would have a calcium/phosphorus ratio of 1.3. 

Thank you for sticking with me and helping. Mazy has had the extra egg yolk (.35 oz four times a week) for a month now, with no extra calcium to balance it. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I hope I haven't messed her up.

Naw, she'll be fine. A calcium deficiency takes a very long time to develop and its not like she wasn't getting any calcium at all.

Hopefully since Laurie has been helping you she'll pop in and give you some advice on how to go forward. I'll be more than happy to answer any other question you might have for me though.

 

[lcat4]

I can't begin to do the calculations that mschauer can do, but going back to your question about the goal ratio of calc/phos - the TC Feline discussion says that the whole prey mouse diet was 1.33:1, not the 1.5 or 1.7:1 that was mentioned above.  I've always heard that 1.2-1.4:1 was the desired ratio.  I've gotten most of my Alnutrin calculator recipes to be around 1.27:1.  I then figure there's a little calcium in the SEB I give the older ones, less calcium in egg whites...kind of averages out. 

I believe the US version of TC Feline premix is based on Natascha's recipe in 2011.  The Canadian premix has since evolved quite a bit.  And yes, mschauer, I believe this change in calcium source is fairly recent.  It certainly wasn't there at the beginning of the year.  Since it appears she's tried to base her nutrition on a cat eating 5 mice per day, I'm assuming the US premix is close to the 1.33:1 ratio.  Interestingly, there is no change in premix quantity regardless of meat choice.  Natascha does make the point that the extra calc/phos that comes from using the freeze dried bone is not bad unless there are kidney or bladder issues that must be considered.  I'm going to continue to split my girls' meals between the two premixes.  The freeze dried bone gives them some benefit that the eggshell can't, the eggshell keeps the phos total down a bit.  Plus it's a variety in food!

Going back to the egg yolks, how much of a yolk is .35 oz?  Just over 1/2?  I know my "drop" measure is 1/64th of a tsp. 

Sorry to add confusion to your thread Otto, but it was amazing to read/watch mschauer in action! 

 

[vball91]

This has been a very interesting thread. Now I'm not sure if I should be supplementing the raw egg yolks with calcium or not. Aria gets a combination of canned (mostly Tiki chicken and Hound & Gatos various flavors), Stella & Chewy's Chicken dinner, frankenprey raw (sometimes cooked) supplemented with either Call of the Wild or eggshell calcium and liver. I know the Ca ratios for both S&C's and using COTW are on the high end, so I was comfortable just feeding egg yolk as a snack, unsupplemented. The amount she gets varies depending on how much of it she'll eat, but it probably works out to 1-1 1/2 yolks a week. Does this sound reasonable, or should I be supplementing calcium? I have no idea what the Ca ratio is in the canned I feed.

Also, would you all recommend I mix in MCHA? I figured since she was getting some bone with the S&C's, I wouldn't worry about it, but maybe I should be since I'm not convinced Aria will ever eat bone-in meals.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Also for comparison, what is the phos to calcium ratio in an ounce of muscle meat and one tenth of an ounce of liver (1.1 oz total) BEFORE adding any calcium or bone?

If it is skinless chicken thigh and chicken liver, .05. There is almost no calcium so it is a tiny number.

I'm just like Gail in that I find all this extremely confusing and need very simple instructions, so now I have a question about the above answer.  How is .05 a ratio?  Sorry, believe it or not, I USED to be a numbers person until my brain stopped working

(not really funny, but it's true!)  Anyway, apparently I feed very similarly, in that I try to supplement calcium per meal, and I also feed between 1 and 1.4 oz per meal, so get out my little smidgen, dash, drop, etc. spoons and measure out either COTW or Alnutrin w/eggshell powder depending on the meal. 

Oh, I see someone said COTW is on the high side...can someone tell me what that ratio is please?  Thanks all

 

[otto]

SEB contains calcium? How much? Mazy is getting SEB 2 or 3 times a week. She also gets a small meal (6 nuggets) of Stella&Chewy every week, specifically for the bone content!

Thank you to everyone posting in this thread! So helpful! I wasn't aware that there were others feeding pretty much the same way I do!

Let's see, if a smidgeon is 1/32 teaspoon, 1/60 teaspoon would be just a grain over 1/2 smidgeon. I think. :lol3:

Still processing the ratio stuff. I can't seem to grasp it for some reason. Now, if someone wanted to know how to spell a word, or unscramble one, or the definition of one, maybe I could be of some help. That's the way my brain paths lie.