Questions Re: Vitamin K, Natural Flavorings, And Additives :-)

[cheeser]

If an ingredient is just listed as Vitamin K, is it probably K3?

Also, if a food contains some kind of protein-like sounding flavor (e.g., natural grilled chicken flavor, natural chicken liver flavor, natural and artificial roasted turkey flavor, natural roasted beef flavor, etc.), do you need to take those into consideration if your cat has an allergy to any of those particular proteins?

And what are some additives that should probably be avoided? I've read all sorts of scary stuff about BHA and BHT, and something about pyrophosphates. But to be honest, sometimes I can't tell just how scared I need to be.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. What are you trying to accomplish? Might help in getting responses.

 

[cheeser]

Hi. What are you trying to accomplish? Might help in getting responses.

Well, this is embarrassing... *sheepishly looks down and digs toe in dirt*

I recently updated my cat food spreadsheet that I use to help me identify potential food allergens and whatnot, and wasn't sure if flavorings counted as a protein source or not. ;-)

Then for whatever reason, I went back and looked at an earlier version of my humble little spreadsheet, and noticed that somewhere along the line I had deleted columns where I made notations for stuff like menadione, BHA and BHT, polyphosphates, etc. I think that was back when I was still very new to trying to learn about cat foods after one of them developed some urinary tract problems, and I very much took it to heart when I'd read about how bad some ingredients were for kitties.

Now I'm not really sure which ingredients I should take into consideration, or if I just unnecessarily spooked myself awhile back.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Well, this is embarrassing... *sheepishly looks down and digs toe in dirt*

I recently updated my cat food spreadsheet that I use to help me identify potential food allergens and whatnot, and wasn't sure if flavorings counted as a protein source or not. ;-)

Then for whatever reason, I went back and looked at an earlier version of my humble little spreadsheet, and noticed that somewhere along the line I had deleted columns where I made notations for stuff like menadione, BHA and BHT, polyphosphates, etc. I think that was back when I was still very new to trying to learn about cat foods after one of them developed some urinary tract problems, and I very much took it to heart when I'd read about how bad some ingredients were for kitties.

Now I'm not really sure which ingredients I should take into consideration, or if I just unnecessarily spooked myself awhile back.

I'm really not sure, but when you said you looked down and dug your toe in the dirt it reminded me of me, so I'll just give my personal 2 cents.
"Natural chicken flavor" could be anything to me, it could be some kind of chicken part mixed with whatever to create a "flavor" or it could be some lab created thing that has no chicken in it. "Natural" has no real meaning in the food industry. If it were me, I'd avoid it if their reaction to that protein was great.
About the Vitamin K, I would contact the company directly and ask nicely for clarification. Read their response carefully to make sure you're not being led through a bunch of hoops like a dog with a treat over its nose, and if you get no response, I'd pass.
Being spooked isn't really bad. Lots of crap going on with pet food companies that have owners a bit on edge, but just be smart about it.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Lol. It's all good! But, still not sure what you are trying by to accomplish...?

 

[kittyluv387]

If you see vitamin K listed it is the synthetic version I believe. I don't think the companies are allowed to use another form. They are requred to add it if a food contains more than 25% fish. It can be under various names also. Someone graciously posted a list and I took a screenshot.

 

[cheeser]

I'm really not sure, but when you said you looked down and dug your toe in the dirt it reminded me of me, so I'll just give my personal 2 cents.
"Natural chicken flavor" could be anything to me, it could be some kind of chicken part mixed with whatever to create a "flavor" or it could be some lab created thing that has no chicken in it. "Natural" has no real meaning in the food industry. If it were me, I'd avoid it if their reaction to that protein was great.
About the Vitamin K, I would contact the company directly and ask nicely for clarification. Read their response carefully to make sure you're not being led through a bunch of hoops like a dog with a treat over its nose, and if you get no response, I'd pass.
Being spooked isn't really bad. Lots of crap going on with pet food companies that have owners a bit on edge, but just be smart about it.

Thanks muchly! I can always use a couple of cents...or sense.

To be honest, I'm surprised how many cat foods list 'natural flavors' as an ingredient, even some of the more premium brands. I was reading somewhere a few days ago that sometimes that can include MSG. Of course, ever since I had that little unexpected trip to the ER after eating an egg roll, just the mere thought of MSG makes me nervous.

Okily-dokily, guess I'll go ask about the vitamin K, just to make sure I get that straight in my warped little noggin.

 

[cheeser]

Lol. It's all good! But, still not sure what you are trying by to accomplish...?

Gosh, it's kinda complicated.

But long story short, we're still having a heck of a time trying to get Buddy's food allergies completely nailed down. So we were just wondering if there are any other ingredients beside meat/poultry proteins, eggs, dairy products, wheat, rice, potatoes, gums, fish oils, etc. that might cause allergy like symptoms, or have the potential to cause some serious health issues. Poor Buddy has enough problems as it is.

 

[cheeser]

If you see vitamin K listed it is the synthetic version I believe. I don't think the companies are allowed to use another form. They are requred to add it if a food contains more than 25% fish. It can be under various names also. Someone graciously posted a list and I took a screenshot.View attachment 264528

Ooh, that's helpful. Thanks! I've heard of most of those, but a couple of them are new to me!

 

[prairiepanda]

I have had to avoid vague ingredients such as "natural flavors" with Jonesy. I have encountered a few foods that have no other allergens in them but still cause problems, and it seems likely to be due to mystery ingredients like that. (Note that we are unable to confirm 100% whether it is the natural flavor ingredients or just a matter of proteins being from a different source or some other problem) Fish and beef are some of his worst allergens, and those are often the most popular sources for flavor components since they are cheap and strong-tasting. Chicken is also a very common source of flavoring agents, although Jonesy is fine with chicken.

Based on the responses I've gotten from various pet food companies, it seems that "natural flavors" are generally extracted from animal sources rather than synthetic, presumably due to cost. So I would avoid any that are associated with a known allergen.

 

[cheeser]

I have had to avoid vague ingredients such as "natural flavors" with Jonesy. I have encountered a few foods that have no other allergens in them but still cause problems, and it seems likely to be due to mystery ingredients like that. (Note that we are unable to confirm 100% whether it is the natural flavor ingredients or just a matter of proteins being from a different source or some other problem) Fish and beef are some of his worst allergens, and those are often the most popular sources for flavor components since they are cheap and strong-tasting. Chicken is also a very common source of flavoring agents, although Jonesy is fine with chicken.

Based on the responses I've gotten from various pet food companies, it seems that "natural flavors" are generally extracted from animal sources rather than synthetic, presumably due to cost. So I would avoid any that are associated with a known allergen.

Oh, bless you! I'm sorry your kitty also has food allergies, but now I feel a little less crazy.

One of our problems is that Buddy is FIV+ and has always been pretty sickly. So at this point, we can't figure out if there are still some food allergens that we haven't been able to identify yet, or if we've done the best we can, and Buddy's system is just always going to be a little wonky.

I just looked at one of my spreadsheets, and 60% of the foods in Buddy's current rotation contain 'natural flavors.' So maybe you're onto something there.

Thanks bunches!

 

[HPeters]

To my knowledge if a cat (or dog) has a food allergy it is typically the protein and switching to an "exotic" protein is a common solution. By "exotic" I mean not your typical fish, beef or poultry but something your cat has never eaten before, these can be pretty much anything including duck and kangaroo.

Also if I remember correctly if a pet food is labeled as flavor (chicken flavor) it has up to 3% of actual meat protein in it, if it says 'with (protein)' I believe it is 3-25% (I think) and if it says for example 'chicken cat food' it has more than 25% protein.
These are laid out by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) which regulate the pet food industry (honestly they state the bare minimum so not all foods with an AAFCO statement are of good quality).

If you want any clarification, I'd be willing to actually go dig out my Nutrition notes, just message me. (I'm an AHT and my nutrition class was taught by a licensed vet)

 

[cheeser]

To my knowledge if a cat (or dog) has a food allergy it is typically the protein and switching to an "exotic" protein is a common solution. By "exotic" I mean not your typical fish, beef or poultry but something your cat has never eaten before, these can be pretty much anything including duck and kangaroo.

Also if I remember correctly if a pet food is labeled as flavor (chicken flavor) it has up to 3% of actual meat protein in it, if it says 'with (protein)' I believe it is 3-25% (I think) and if it says for example 'chicken cat food' it has more than 25% protein.
These are laid out by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) which regulate the pet food industry (honestly they state the bare minimum so not all foods with an AAFCO statement are of good quality).

If you want any clarification, I'd be willing to actually go dig out my Nutrition notes, just message me. (I'm an AHT and my nutrition class was taught by a licensed vet)

The funny thing is that when we and our vet first suspected that Buddy might have a food allergy, we all naively thought this was going to be a simple problem to fix. He had been eating nothing but chicken for a couple of years, so all we had to do was switch to another protein, right?

*sigh*

Buddy's symptoms did improve significantly after we stopped feeding him chicken, and tried various novel proteins, e.g., beef, lamb, pork, rabbit, kangaroo, etc. It's just that there's still room for improvement, and because of Buddy's other health issues, it can often be a challenge just to get him to eat. So it's always a bit of a balancing act, and we just feel a little more unbalanced than usual lately.

 

[HPeters]

The funny thing is that when we and our vet first suspected that Buddy might have a food allergy, we all naively thought this was going to be a simple problem to fix. He had been eating nothing but chicken for a couple of years, so all we had to do was switch to another protein, right?

*sigh*

Buddy's symptoms did improve significantly after we stopped feeding him chicken, and tried various novel proteins, e.g., beef, lamb, pork, rabbit, kangaroo, etc. It's just that there's still room for improvement, and because of Buddy's other health issues, it can often be a challenge just to get him to eat. So it's always a bit of a balancing act, and we just feel a little more unbalanced than usual lately.

Another thought may be a raw food diet, though I personally don't do it, it can be another way to control/monitor Buddy's feed. I'd probably recommend discussing this with your vet to ensure he still has a well balanced diet

 

[1 bruce 1]

Another thought may be a raw food diet, though I personally don't do it, it can be another way to control/monitor Buddy's feed. I'd probably recommend discussing this with your vet to ensure he still has a well balanced diet

This is why I'm still so mad that Radcat went out.

 

[cheeser]

Another thought may be a raw food diet, though I personally don't do it, it can be another way to control/monitor Buddy's feed. I'd probably recommend discussing this with your vet to ensure he still has a well balanced diet

We have toyed with the idea of raw several times, especially when Buddy is going through yet another rough patch where he's not very enthusiastic about eating ANYTHING. But since he's had so many infections these past couple of years (e.g., antibiotic resistant bacterial infections, fungal infections, and viral infections -- sometimes all at the same time), we just haven't been able to take that leap of faith and give raw food a try.

We did buy some pre-mix and give home cooked meals a try like our vet suggested. Alas, thus far, Buddy hasn't been impressed with our efforts. So for now, we're just having to make do with the best canned food options that he'll actually eat, and keeping hoping for the best.

 

[cheeser]

This is why I'm still so mad that Radcat went out.

Oh, noes. What happened to Radcat?

 

[HPeters]

We have toyed with the idea of raw several times, especially when Buddy is going through yet another rough patch where he's not very enthusiastic about eating ANYTHING. But since he's had so many infections these past couple of years (e.g., antibiotic resistant bacterial infections, fungal infections, and viral infections -- sometimes all at the same time), we just haven't been able to take that leap of faith and give raw food a try.

We did buy some pre-mix and give home cooked meals a try like our vet suggested. Alas, thus far, Buddy hasn't been impressed with our efforts. So for now, we're just having to make do with the best canned food options that he'll actually eat, and keeping hoping for the best.

Well best of luck with Buddy, if he goes off food a last ditch effort can be baby food (I typically recommend chicken but if hes allergic I'd suggest another flavour that is cat safe)