Questions Re: Raw Food/Hare-Today Math/Portions/Misc. - Seeking Answer to Life, the Universe, and Ev

[mildlyironic]

Hi everyone,

I've been scouring these forums for a while trying to put together all of the information in preparation for bringing home and raw-feeding two new kittens in June. I think I'm slowly getting the hang of it? Nevertheless, I have a couple of (oddly detailed) questions that I'd love feedback on to make sure I'm giving my new kit-kits the nutrition they deserve I apologize for the long post, but have added - hopefully helpful - headers if individuals feel more comfortable commenting about certain topics and less so on others, they can scroll right to those questions!

New Proteins - Introductions and Combinations

I've read that when introducing new foods, I should do so slowly, by mixing in small proportions of the new food with the old, and slowly increasing the amount of new food I introduce. First - what would be an appropriate speed? 1/4 new food for a day, 1/2 for a day, 3/4 for a day? Or even more slowly?

Second, does this introduction method hold true for introducing new sources of protein? For example, the first time I feed the kittens turkey instead of chicken, should I slowly mix it in? Can I start a rotation schedule once the kittens have been introduced to each of the proteins once, or do I still need to slowly introduce proteins each week? 

Lastly, but relatedly, is it OK to consistently combine meat sources in a single meal? For example, as discussed below, I'm planning to cut Hare-Today mixtures with more meat and organs to reduce the bone content. Would it be problematic if I consistently use chicken meat and organs to cut the proteins - either because I ought not to be mixing proteins or because I'd be overloading my kittens with chicken?

Hare-Today

Cutting Down the Bone Percentage

After research on the forums, I emailed Hare-Today about bone and organ percentages, and was told that the poultry and rabbit range from 16-20% bone, and organs vary. I definitely know I want to reduce the bone percentage - and I also read that under a frankenprey model, 80% meat/5% liver/5% secreting organ/10% bone is the ideal proportion. So, my questions are these: first, is it correct to assume that Hare-Today will have roughly the correct proportion of organs? Second, since I'll be adding Alnutrin, do I also need to aim for those proportions or will the supplement even out the nutritional profile? Third, would these calculations be more-or-less correct for cutting down the bone percentage?

2 lbs bone/organ/meat

2 lbs ground meat (for 8-10% bone, or just 1 lbs ground meat for 10%-14% bone)

0.2 lbs ground organ

Defrosting the Chubs

I've heard some people say they have problems defrosting the 3 or 5 lbs chubs, and recommend the 1 or 2 lbs chubs. I've also seen recommendations for defrosting the chubs in a storage bin of water. Are the chubs wrapped so that they are waterproof? For example, could I load up a few chubs into a very large storage bin at once, resulting in some of the chubs being completely submerged, and avoid having water leak into the packaging? 

Additives and Supplements

I've also seen some people supplement their cats' meals with egg yolk once a week, or raw sardines; relatedly, some add fish oil to the raw food. What is the purpose of adding the oil and egg yolk? Is it a necessity - and would it be on Hare-Today+Alnutrin, or ground meat+TCFeline (which I'll be trying out before making the 20lbs purchase on Hare-Today to see if the kittens like raw meat)?

Pasteurizing Meat/Sous Vide

I recognize that there's quite the debate about raw or parboiled meat with respect to possible bacterial loads. While trying to strike a balance between them, I wonder - what are people's thoughts on using a sous vide machine to pasteurize raw meat (no bone)? A sous vide machine creates a very precise warm water bath at degrees that are lower than average cooking; we can make meat safe to eat by holding the meat at those temperatures for a longer period of time. This technique is often used for slow-cooked eggs, meats, vegetables, etc.

If I use a temperature that is lower than what a sous vide machine would use to cook the meat, but hold it for a longer period of time, could this possibly be a technique that helps reduce bacterial load while keeping it raw? Or do you think it's functionally the same as cooking the meat at this point? Relatedly, could I use this technique to pasteurize supermarket ground raw meat and thus overcome the very problematic likely bacterial load in those meats?

Raw-Food Containers and Portion Sizes

Surprisingly, this is the aspect that has me most tripped up and considering a high-quality canned food until the kittens are a little older. I know a lot of people use plastic baggies or tupperware, but I'd rather not end up (a) using and throwing a bunch of plastic, (b) washing a lot of baggies, or (c) purchasing buttloads of tupperware. An option I'm seriously considering is glass jars - mason jars, babyfood sized jars. I'm assuming glass is safe for holding raw food, but please let me know if not. 

Regardless of whether I purchase tupperware or glass, I'd like some advice on what portions to pack the raw food in. It seems like cats on raw food can eat anywhere between 3-5 ounces a day, but kittens can - and should be allowed to, if hungry - eat up to 9oz. I'd like to portion the food off into individual servings, and I'd like the containers I buy now to be useful sized containers for the cats' portions long term.

However, I don't exactly know how much they'll eat long-term. Meanwhile, I worry that the kittens will want to eat more food than I've defrosted, or eat half of an extra portion and the remaining half might not last very long in my fridge. Should I purchase a lot of 4oz jars, and just defrost 4 at a time while the two cats are kittens, hope I've made enough (but not too much), and expect them to each eat 4oz a day when they're older? Should I just go for a 10oz or 1lbs jar, measure out each portion per meal, and hope the cats can finish 16oz of food before it goes bad in my fridge? How long can raw food stay defrosted in a fridge for? Relatedly, since I'm moving cities in two months, should I just stick with canned and wait to really stock up on containers until after the move?

Thanks SO MUCH for all of your advice! Also, to make this long post end on a positive note, here're pictures of the kittens I'll be adopting when they're of age. (Right now, they're at a rescue group's foster home, and the pictures are from when they're 4-6 weeks old). World - meet Artemis and Apollo

IMG_20140406_125527_124.jpg

• mildlyironic
• May 7, 2014

Asher & mama.jpg

• mildlyironic
• May 7, 2014

 

[roguethecat]

I love 

 

 the mason jars. Easy to clean. Can even put them into the dishwasher. Hate tupperware (but still seem to own much of it), and resort to plastic bags when I run out of mason jars. I have half pints mostly, a few pints. The rule of thumb is that thawed food lasts for 3 days in the fridge. So, as you (very wisely) will have two critters, and kittens eat lots - LOTS - of food, several times a day, you don't really need to portion individually as they will probably go through one of the jars per day at least. I would go for the half pints and always have one ready-to-eat and one thawing in the fridge.

Additionally, for emergencies, I'd have a stock of canned ready.

 

[roguethecat]

I've also seen some people supplement their cats' meals with egg yolk once a week, or raw sardines; relatedly, some add fish oil to the raw food. What is the purpose of adding the oil and egg yolk? Is it a necessity - and would it be on Hare-Today+Alnutrin, or ground meat+TCFeline (which I'll be trying out before making the 20lbs purchase on Hare-Today to see if the kittens like raw meat)?

this is because of the omega fatty acids/ B vitamins. Usually you get them from organs, but these days, even Tracy's pampered critters are not free-roaming grassfed like a cat's natural prey would be. So while certainly better than canned food, the process of grinding/ freezing/ thawing will destroy some nutrients and if you want to be on the safe side, you add some back.

For me, the only way of getting omega acids into the beasties is adding egg yolk to ground food. The advantage of egg yolk is it's ridiculously rich of nutrients (and I need the shells for my tomatoes). This is great for growing a sleek glossy coat (like my Grisou

, who insists on getting his yolk in the form of day-old chicks).

also, hey, don't fret too much - feeding raw is fun!

 

[ritz]

Sounds like you've researched raw feeding thoroughly. Good for you!
New Proteins: do you know what the kittens have been eating? Probably not raw. I would feed them whatever they are currently eating for a few days to see how they are adjusting to newness. Then you should follow the guidelines for slowly transitioning a cat from canned/kibble to raw food; otherwise, the change in food may upset the kittens' tummy. If they were being fed kibble, transition even slower, 1/8 to 1/4 new food and increase gradually. If they were being fed canned, I'd start with 1/4 new food. Course, it really depends in part on the appetite of the cat. Ritz is an adventurous eater; she loves any protein (except red meat on an empty stomach).
Turkey and chicken are similar; chicken and goat, aren't. So I wouldn't worry as much about introductions if the food is in the same 'family', i.e., fowl.
I consistently mix proteins in the same meal. Ritz can't handle red meat on an empty stomach (I am gone for 11 hours during the work week). So, I feed her red meat (goat, beef, tripe, venison) in the morning and (usually) chicken thigh/breast in the evening. On the weekends when I am home, I feed her red meat. I think it is really important to feed as many different proteins as you can afford, you have access to, and as your cats will tolerate. Every meat has a different nutritional profile.

Hare-Today.
I fed prey model raw (frankenprey) so don't feel qualified to answer this question. But you have the general idea, you do need to cut/dilute the bone.
Defrosting the chubs: doubt they are waterproof. But you could simply defrost chubb in your refrigerator until they are still reasonably frozen but unfrozen enough that you can cut (without removing the plastic). And then separately freeze the smaller chubbs. Indeed, I find it easier to cut the meat in appropriate amounts when the meat is still slightly frozen.

Additives and Supplements.
A personal preference. For the first two years I did not give Ritz any supplements. Now, I give her an egg once or twice a week (unless it's a qauil egg, then three or four times a week). I occasionally give Ritz Krill oil (omega 3s I believe). I don't know whether these addivities are necessary with Alnutrin.

Pasteuirzing Meat: waaayyyy over my skill set But good questions. A chef who is a cat owner might be able to help you.
I would avoid grocery store ground meat; however, if you have access to a butcher, you might go that route.
As an aside, I frequently buy meat that is at its "sell by" date, and reduced 30% to 50% off. I either process the meat immediately (portion into appropriate amounts) or freeze it. And Ritz has lived to tell the tail [sic].

Raw Food Containers and Portion Sizes:
My concern about mason jars is if they break you'd have to throw away all the food and can these jars be frozen. I obviously I know they will sustain boiling temperatures, but what about freezing temps. (I love mason jars for the yogurt I make.)
You can always refrigerator/refreeze the portion the kittens won't eat. Raw food can stay in the refrigerator for around two to three days (at least in my refrigerator, temps vary among brands, settings). Initially, I'd opt for 10 oz containers, some of the containers have measuring guidelines.
I use tupperware-like containers, most of which I've found for 25 cents to $1 at thrift stores. I try to get only square containers; mixing round and square containers take up more room in my average size refrigerator than only square ones.

Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. Ritz was 'addictive' to Fancy Feast Classic Seafood, still hungry after eating 9 ounces. My cat mentor who also rescued Ritz said I could try feeding raw though she didn't know anything about it. I researched to death raw feeding; finally, I just decided to do it. Started with commercial raw (Primal and Rad Cat). Once I discovered Ritz loved the raw, and after some more research, and after getting tired of having to make a special trip to the high end pet store, I switched her to prey model raw/frankenprey. Three years later, never looked back.

Seeking answer to life, the universe: you've already found them: Artemis and Apollo. Ritz is my first cat (pet!) ever. Totally changed my life.

 

[roguethecat]

Pasteurizing Meat/Sous Vide

I recognize that there's quite the debate about raw or parboiled meat with respect to possible bacterial loads. While trying to strike a balance between them, I wonder - what are people's thoughts on using a sous vide machine to pasteurize raw meat (no bone)? A sous vide machine creates a very precise warm water bath at degrees that are lower than average cooking; we can make meat safe to eat by holding the meat at those temperatures for a longer period of time. This technique is often used for slow-cooked eggs, meats, vegetables, etc.

If I use a temperature that is lower than what a sous vide machine would use to cook the meat, but hold it for a longer period of time, could this possibly be a technique that helps reduce bacterial load while keeping it raw? Or do you think it's functionally the same as cooking the meat at this point? Relatedly, could I use this technique to pasteurize supermarket ground raw meat and thus overcome the very problematic likely bacterial load in those meats?

at this point, remember they are cats

, not humans. Their digestion system and stomach are quite different than yours. They are evolved eating raw meat, including bacterial loads you would barf at

. Having said this, I wouldn't feed ground raw purchased from supermarkets to kittens (but have done so to grown cats and they loved it, especially the buffalo). In your place, I would invest in a grinder so you can do the butchering FRESH and freeze immediately. At the same time, it would be great to give them small chunks of meat to chew on. 

 

[peaches08]

Originally Posted by mildlyironic  
 

Pasteurizing Meat/Sous Vide

I recognize that there's quite the debate about raw or parboiled meat with respect to possible bacterial loads. While trying to strike a balance between them, I wonder - what are people's thoughts on using a sous vide machine to pasteurize raw meat (no bone)? A sous vide machine creates a very precise warm water bath at degrees that are lower than average cooking; we can make meat safe to eat by holding the meat at those temperatures for a longer period of time. This technique is often used for slow-cooked eggs, meats, vegetables, etc.

If I use a temperature that is lower than what a sous vide machine would use to cook the meat, but hold it for a longer period of time, could this possibly be a technique that helps reduce bacterial load while keeping it raw? Or do you think it's functionally the same as cooking the meat at this point? Relatedly, could I use this technique to pasteurize supermarket ground raw meat and thus overcome the very problematic likely bacterial load in those meats?

To reach my goal of killing surface bacteria yet yielding as much raw as possible, a chef advised for me to bake at the highest temp my oven would go to (550 F) for only a few minutes and then shock the chicken in ice water.  I would "bake" the chicken just until the chicken skin would start to turn.  I added all pan drippings back to the food to reduce any losses.  I have since stopped baking the chicken at all and the cats prefer it.

I would think that the lower temp would yield less raw meat.  As far as supermarket grinds, the problem is that the blade drags surface bacteria into the meat rather than surface bacteria growing on ground meat.  Then again, my grinder is doing exactly the same thing when I grind meat:  dragging whatever is on the surface into the ground product.  But, I keep my grinder meticulously clean, possibly cleaner than the supermarket.

Great questions, some of which I've been meaning to ask to revamp my own raw feeding practices!

 

[furmonster mom]

Everyone else has given great answers, so I will only add....

42

 

[mildlyironic]

I love :heart3: :heart3:  :heart3:  the mason jars. Easy to clean. Can even put them into the dishwasher. Hate tupperware (but still seem to own much of it), and resort to plastic bags when I run out of mason jars. I have half pints mostly, a few pints. The rule of thumb is that thawed food lasts for 3 days in the fridge. So, as you (very wisely) will have two critters, and kittens eat lots - LOTS - of food, several times a day, you don't really need to portion individually as they will probably go through one of the jars per day at least. I would go for the half pints and always have one ready-to-eat and one thawing in the fridge.
Additionally, for emergencies, I'd have a stock of canned ready.

Thanks so much for your replies, Roguethecat! Do you warm up the food at all for your cats, and if so how do you do it? Do you do a warm bath for the mason jar or separate the portions and warm them in a baggie? Some aspiration so part of me hopes that the kittens won't mind cold food, but I'm 90% sure that's never going to happen, haha.

I ended up poking through Alnutrin's ingredients, and it includes egg yolks - so I guess I don't need to add extra? Is there such a thing as "too much" egg yolk if I give them one extra a week?

Thanks for all of your replies!!

 

[mildlyironic]

Additives and Supplements.
A personal preference. For the first two years I did not give Ritz any supplements. Now, I give her an egg once or twice a week (unless it's a qauil egg, then three or four times a week). I occasionally give Ritz Krill oil (omega 3s I believe). I don't know whether these addivities are necessary with Alnutrin.

The forces that be are definitely saying something to me - just last night, I was having dinner with a cardiologist who told me about the health benefits of omega 3, and I've been trying to see if I should/could introduce more of it into my diet (and of course, the next thought is if it's something to introduce to the kittens!) do you mix the oil with their food? Relatedly, do you just add the egg to their food? For some reason, whenever someone says they give their cats an egg or egg yolk, I always imagine someone just sliding an egg/egg yolk right onto the plate. Thanks for all of your replies!

 

[mildlyironic]

I'd think that the lower temp would yield less raw meat.  As far as supermarket grinds, the problem is that the blade drags surface bacteria into the meat rather than surface bacteria growing on ground meat.  Then again, my grinder is doing exactly the same thing when I grind meat:  dragging whatever is on the surface into the ground product.  But, I keep my grinder meticulously clean, possibly cleaner than the supermarket.

Yeah - i know that using a sous vide machine can pasteurize and egg while leaving it totally raw, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that with chicken (probably because no one ever wants to pasteurize raw chicken, la la la) and I really don't want to risk messing it up. If been hoping to incorporate more supermarket ground for the convenience and price, but worry a lot about contamination from supermarket grinders, especially while the cats are just kittens.

Do you use a handheld or electric grinder? I don't see myself grinding none in the near future, so saving money on a handheld grinder sounds great, but I've never used one before, and I suspect grinding 10-20lbs of raw chicken/turkey to cut Hare-Today would not be fun. (I'd develop great arm strength though! Silver linings.)

 

[mildlyironic]

Everyone else has given great answers, so I will only add....

42

I wish I could "thumbs up" this post, like on Facebook

 

[ritz]

Thumbs up: um, you can: there is a green thumb at the bottom of every post. Click it and you have just given the poster purraise

 

[roguethecat]

Do you warm up the food at all for your cats, and if so how do you do it?

ahem... no. I'm usually way too late/ busy in the morning. If I thawed it in the fridge, I just dump it out. If I'm unlucky, I still have to cut something up (most of my crowd eats whole prey/ big chunks of meaty bones and organs). If they are very hungry or the food especially good, they'll dig right in. Otherwise, they wait until it's room temp.

Sometimes I put something out to thaw late at night and thaw on the kitchen counter, this will be room temperature in the morning.

When I come home after work, same thing... they get what's in the fridge (can't have anyone wait around, can I?).

But this is just me being lazy. I know everything will be room temperature eventually. 

In emergencies (i.e., I forgot or didn't thaw enough) I thaw jars or baggies in a bowl of warm water.

Might depend a lot on your kittens, though - some candidates have sensitive stomachs and will vomit after too much too cold food.

So what you could do is have your jar/baggie in the fridge and warm up your BOWL (a couple minutes in a bowl of warm water should do it) and put the food in there.

Then, the egg yolk... well, no idea how much Alnutrin puts there. One extra per week shouldn't matter. But you can definitely give too much of egg yolk (lots of phosphorous in there, which you need to balance out with calcium). You'll notice if it's too much when they get soft poop

 

[roguethecat]

Relatedly, do you just add the egg to their food?

I tried that... egg yolk on a plate. The Rogue

stuck his tongue in and wasn't impressed. The others ignored it. So I ended up mixing it in ground food. For salmon oil, I dribble some onto the food and hope they eat it.

 

[ldg]

I offered egg yolk in a dish. Um... a few licks out of a few of them, but nope. :lol3:

3 of mine prefer chunks to ground, so I buy ground rabbit from Hare Today JUST to mix in egg yolks, so I can feed them ground four times a week and they get the equivalent of one yolk a week.

I feed sardines once a week as a treat for the D and omega 3s. Egg yolk provides the same (I buy local eggs, organic and pastured. WOW they are SO different than supermarket eggs it's not funny), though egg yolks also provide choline, which is otherwise usually short in a PMR diet, unless you regularly feed brain, though there's a decent amount in kidney. Choline does a lot of things... including help prevent dementia when they're older.

I realize you're bringing home cute little itty bitty kitties (!!!!), so not a concern as of yet (and potentially never since they'll be fed right!), but this is another reason to feed egg yolks: http://catcentric.org/care-and-health/hairballs-species-appropriate-treatment/

 

[ldg]

Oh - and with your kittens? You can probably just offer them raw. Food preferences probably haven't been set. Kittens are usually adventurous eaters, and their systems haven't been messed up yet, so they can probably handle it. That is a GREAT "normal" way of introducing raw - but even within those guidelines, you can go at your cats' pace.

 

[peaches08]

Yeah - i know that using a sous vide machine can pasteurize and egg while leaving it totally raw, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that with chicken (probably because no one ever wants to pasteurize raw chicken, la la la) and I really don't want to risk messing it up. If been hoping to incorporate more supermarket ground for the convenience and price, but worry a lot about contamination from supermarket grinders, especially while the cats are just kittens.

Do you use a handheld or electric grinder? I don't see myself grinding none in the near future, so saving money on a handheld grinder sounds great, but I've never used one before, and I suspect grinding 10-20lbs of raw chicken/turkey to cut Hare-Today would not be fun. (I'd develop great arm strength though! Silver linings.)

I use a Tasin grinder (electric).  Before that I just cut meat up wth scissors and added the appropriate amount of premix (TC Feline, Better In The Raw) and water.  The on ly reason I went to the grinder is because if I went Frankenprey then everyone would grab their favorite piece and run.  I work long hours and sometimes have to put food down as I leave the house.  Policing bowls doesn't happen here often due to time.

You could always add chunked to Hare Today.  I add chunks of gizzards to my cats' food.

 

[catspaw66]

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[mildlyironic]

 

[roguethecat]