Questions About The Safety Of Tnr?

[misskalamata]

Several presumably feral cats live behind my workplace and are fed by multiple people from my work and other neighboring businesses. We can get 5-10 feet away from the cats, no closer. We suspect that all the cats are female, since one is calico and nobody has had kittens this past year that we're aware of ("Mama" had kittens last winter). It would be nice to get them spayed, though, lest any tomcats move into the neighborhood.

I arranged a date to try to trap the cats. I am to bring them into the TNR place in the morning, pick them up in the afternoon, and then leave them in the traps overnight and release them the following morning. They have a sort-of shelter from the elements outside, a big plywood board leaning against a structure.

My coworker is very opposed to the idea of my leaving the cats outside in the traps overnight after the spaying. She fears that the cats will panic in the traps and have a heart attack, or that a skunk will spray them, or a raccoon claw at them and they won't be able to get away. She feels that this is too risky and traumatic on the cats and it would be better to just leave the cats unspayed.

She asked if I had a garage to keep the cats in after the spaying, but I do not. I can't imagine toting scared feral cats home to my apartment for the night, either. I would think that the strange smells of the indoors would be even scarier for the cats than just leaving them in their usual outdoor shelter under the plywood. The forecast low temp for the night of the spay is 46, high temp 60.

My coworker is making me second-guess my TNR plan, now. Honestly, I really don't want to do this myself. I would happily have paid some expert to do it, but it appears there is nobody who will. Nobody else is volunteering to trap the cats. (If any of you live in Geauga County, Ohio, and want to help me out, please message me!!!) I don't want to put the cats at risk or traumatize them, but I think it would be wise to get them fixed.

Advice is much appreciated!

 

[white shadow]

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Hi misskalamata !

Good on you for taking this on !

And, good on your coworker, too!

I don't know, of course, how widely you may have searched for helpers....but, if you Google exactly this: "cat rescue in Geauga County, Ohio".....you'll see a number of volunteer organizations that might just be able to offer a helping hand - including appropriate recovery spaces.

I believe your coworker has brought up some valid concerns. Personally, no matter how desperately I would want to get these little ones fixed, that particular post-surgery circumstance would give me great pause for reconsideration.

If these were male cats and I had absolutely no other option, then perhaps I'd proceed....even then, I think I'd make adjustments like doing one at a time - and taking him home for one night.

For females, two days in quiet, comfortable seclusion with observation woul a minimum.

I did that Google....there appear to be quite a few rescue groups in the area.

Hope that helps !
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[fionasmom]

I agree. Over night in unprotected traps is not good and females should have an extra day, but unspayed is also completely undesireable. Try to find some group to at least consult with. Alley Cat Allies has a Friends of Ferals section with names of people locally who can help on some level. You might try them as well.

 

[Willowy]

Hmm. I have to say I'm not totally comfortable leaving them in the traps outdoors overnight either. Although if that's the only option I think it's better than not spaying them. Are there any other possible options? I suppose the TNR program can't keep them overnight. Are there any garages or sheds at the work location that could be used?

 

[1 bruce 1]

Could you ask the TNR group if they have available space to house them for one night? If you're not tight on money, maybe offer them some "boarding donation" for their trouble.

 

[surya]

I have kept many cats in traps in my bathtub overnight, someone picks them up in the morning. They keep the females at the vets office for a few days for recovery time after the operation. It's major surgery for the female cats, but I realize a lot of TNR people don't do that. But if you can find an organization that would help you out, you could ask them about that.

Make sure you cover the cage up after trapping. It keeps them calm. If you have to keep them outside, maybe you could put some things around the cage to protect them. For example, their are shopping carts around my apartment, something like that.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I have kept many cats in traps in my bathtub overnight, someone picks them up in the morning. They keep the females at the vets office for a few days for recovery time after the operation. It's major surgery for the female cats, but I realize a lot of TNR people don't do that. But if you can find an organization that would help you out, you could ask them about that.

Make sure you cover the cage up after trapping. It keeps them calm. If you have to keep them outside, maybe you could put some things around the cage to protect them. For example, their are shopping carts around my apartment, something like that.

We've had to disguise traps before because some cats are more suspicious and smarter than I am and won't walk into a stand alone trap, but will if it's hidden under a bush, or up against a building with a tarp over the side, or in our case, between bales of hay or straw, covered.
When we caught the cat that refused to be caught, once he was trapped it was like an explosion, he was panicking quite a bit and we threw an old tarp over the cage and the thrashing stopped. He wasn't happy, but he calmed almost immediately. About 36 hours later he was free again, ordeal over.

 

[walli]

Some places will board the animals after TNR worth checking into.
Either way better off being Neutered!

 

[1 bruce 1]

If all else fails, another thought is to organize the coworkers who feed and care for the cats and keep the cats caged at night, and form a sort of stake out in shifts. It's a pain in the butt, but it's only for one night and it could easily be broken into shifts, maybe in groups of 2 or 3 to keep people from dozing off.
And bring coffee, because I do speak from experience

 

[misskalamata]

Thank you everyone so much for the answers and suggestions!

I spoke to the TNR lady again today. I was mistaken about the expectation of leaving the cats outside in the traps ... she clarified that they should be kept in a garage, shed, etc after the spay. I think I will be able to use a family member's garage for this purpose. I asked if I could pay them to board the cats for a day, but she said no.

I asked if the 46 degree night temperature would be a problem in the garage, and she said it would not as long as I keep the cage covered, to keep their body heat inside. But the Alley Cat Allies site recommends keeping the cats in a 75 degree area because they can't regulate their body temperature as well after anesthesia. I don't know how big of a deal this is. I would guess that the garage would be a at least a few degrees warmer than outside.

As far as recovery time goes, the TNR lady told me that releasing the cats the next morning follows the standard, national guidelines for TNR (and added that they won't lend me the traps unless I agree to abide by their guidelines). (She also told me that I should be wary about trusting what people say online ... but I have found the people on this forum to be pretty helpful and experienced in cat matters!)

The Alley Cat Allies site says:
"According to Julie Levy (DVM, PhD), a leading cat veterinarian and researcher, cats can be returned to their outdoor homes 24 hours after surgery if they’re clear-eyed and alert. The clinic may ask you to make exceptions for cats who are slow to recover or need continuing post-operative care. You may also consider holding the cats longer if it is freezing outside, since anesthesia drugs can impair cats’ ability to regulate their body temperature. However, always return the cats as soon as you can. “Rapid return” is associated with better outcomes, as confinement is extremely stressful for most community cats."

Although, the site also mentions that female cats sometimes might take more recovery time. If the spaying is done in the morning, then the cats would have 24 hours of recovery time.

I plan to get the traps several days before the actual trapping, zip-tie them to stay open (the TNR lady approves of this), and have all the cat feeders put the food only inside the traps, to get the cats comfortable with going inside. I will try to get people to feed them only early in the morning, and withhold food the day before trapping day. On trapping day, I plan to arrive in the morning two hours before I have to get the cats to the vet.

I have no idea how big the traps are, either. Could I fit two of them in my hatchback "trunk"?

What do you think about my coworker's fear that the panicked cats will have a heart attack in the traps? My coworker says she had a former stray cat who had a heart attack when put into a carrier to go the vet. I hate to cause these kitties trauma and distress.

Thank you again for the advice!

 

[1 bruce 1]

Thank you everyone so much for the answers and suggestions!

I spoke to the TNR lady again today. I was mistaken about the expectation of leaving the cats outside in the traps ... she clarified that they should be kept in a garage, shed, etc after the spay. I think I will be able to use a family member's garage for this purpose. I asked if I could pay them to board the cats for a day, but she said no.

I asked if the 46 degree night temperature would be a problem in the garage, and she said it would not as long as I keep the cage covered, to keep their body heat inside. But the Alley Cat Allies site recommends keeping the cats in a 75 degree area because they can't regulate their body temperature as well after anesthesia. I don't know how big of a deal this is. I would guess that the garage would be a at least a few degrees warmer than outside.

As far as recovery time goes, the TNR lady told me that releasing the cats the next morning follows the standard, national guidelines for TNR (and added that they won't lend me the traps unless I agree to abide by their guidelines). (She also told me that I should be wary about trusting what people say online ... but I have found the people on this forum to be pretty helpful and experienced in cat matters!)

The Alley Cat Allies site says:
"According to Julie Levy (DVM, PhD), a leading cat veterinarian and researcher, cats can be returned to their outdoor homes 24 hours after surgery if they’re clear-eyed and alert. The clinic may ask you to make exceptions for cats who are slow to recover or need continuing post-operative care. You may also consider holding the cats longer if it is freezing outside, since anesthesia drugs can impair cats’ ability to regulate their body temperature. However, always return the cats as soon as you can. “Rapid return” is associated with better outcomes, as confinement is extremely stressful for most community cats."

Although, the site also mentions that female cats sometimes might take more recovery time. If the spaying is done in the morning, then the cats would have 24 hours of recovery time.

I plan to get the traps several days before the actual trapping, zip-tie them to stay open (the TNR lady approves of this), and have all the cat feeders put the food only inside the traps, to get the cats comfortable with going inside. I will try to get people to feed them only early in the morning, and withhold food the day before trapping day. On trapping day, I plan to arrive in the morning two hours before I have to get the cats to the vet.

I have no idea how big the traps are, either. Could I fit two of them in my hatchback "trunk"?

What do you think about my coworker's fear that the panicked cats will have a heart attack in the traps? My coworker says she had a former stray cat who had a heart attack when put into a carrier to go the vet. I hate to cause these kitties trauma and distress.

Thank you again for the advice!

I think 75 degrees is a good idea but if it's not do-able it's not do-able. If the garage has electricity, a safe space heater might do the trick to keep it warmer but I would start it a few hours before the cats come home.
Feral Cat Trap Rescue Kit - 2 Pack, Model # B1099 | Havahart®
Pretty standard cat traps with dimensions. You might check and do some measuring of your car to make sure.
When it comes to TNR'ing ferals, we don't have the luxury of pre-op vet work and knowing the subtle signs of heart disease. I think the odds are slim the cats would go into cardiac arrest. It sounds cruel to even think it let alone share it with the world, but if they do, chances are they had a genetic defect that, if left un-neutered, would just be passed on to the next generations until the entire line is wiped out from it because the world can be a scary place, especially to a cat on it's own. Something like being chased by a dog or having a bad stand off with another un-neutered cat or a close call with a car could cause sudden death.
The best bet is to trap them, immediately cover the entire cage with a blanket or tarp, and BE QUIET. No shouting or waving your arms if the cat does freak, no chanting nervously "it's ok it's ok it's ok". Cover the cage, and be still and be quiet. When they've calmed and it's time to pick up the trap, expect them to start slamming around again. If you can, use one hand to lift the cage off the ground a bit, and use the other to tuck the blanket or tarp underneath and use that hand to support the "floor" of the cage. It keeps the cage steadier, keeps it from wobbling as you walk, and keeps your hand safe from claws. If you must speak, keep your tone even and quiet and soothing. When they're in your car, either play classical type music very quietly (this is no time for AC/DC ) or turn the radio off all together. If you're traveling with a companion, talk quietly or just don't talk much at all.

 

[surya]

I'm not surprised they had that attitude about recovery time. There is a lot of politics in TNR that have nothing to do with what is best for the cats. Just like with people their can be complications after major surgery and that is why many vets would disagree. But I'm not trying to argue, just pointing out there are different points of view.

 

[Willowy]

I don't know why that would be considered "politics". ACA has been doing TNR a long time and they know what they're doing. There was one female (my first TNR in fact!) I released after 24 hours because I thought she was going to hurt herself, she was so panicky and was trying to get outside. Even when she was still, she was panting hard and her eyes were dilated in fear. Stress hampers recovery. And she was fine (and eventually tamed down, and is now 15 years old and lives with my mom ). Others I've kept longer because they were less wild and didn't seem as stressed.

I'd be inclined to say "take every situation as it comes and treat each cat as an individual" but that doesn't really work when you're setting policies for a municipal TNR program.

Anyway, yes, they should be fine being released after 24 hours, as long as they're kept safe overnight.

 

[surya]

All of mine who are kept longer are fine too. The politics are obvious to me, but I don't feel like debating it. Clearly there is disagreement on what is best for the cats medically. I didn't just make that up. I'm not a vet, but I can clearly see the benefits. Those vets who believe in a longer recovery time have been doing it for a long time, so I guess based on your logic they must know what they are doing too.

 

[misskalamata]

Now I am thinking that maybe I can put plastic sheeting over the carpet in the spare bedroom and keep the cats in there, instead of the garage. I use the bathroom, so I don't think that would work. Do trapped cats tend to cry and yowl, or do they mainly stay quiet as long as the cage is covered?

I'm worried that the TNR vet will say there is something wrong with the cat and she should be put down. She appears to have an eye injury ... what if they say it's horribly infected and they can't fix it and she should be euthanized? Would they let me get a second opinion from a different vet? If something bad happens to these cats, I will be the one to blame.

This whole thing is making me quite nervous. Am I really doing the right thing? Nobody has had kittens in over a year, as far as we know. Is the spaying unnecessary? My coworkers think so.

 

[fionasmom]

Any time that I have thrown a tarp or blanket over a feral in a cage, no matter how wild they are, they have calmed down. Plastic sheeting on the floors is a good idea and make sure to cover amply any part of the floor where there will be a trap. Huge tarps work very well, too.

As for a heart attack, I have never had that happen. My one experience with a heart attack was an indoor only pet who was being treated for a heart condition and who did ultimately die from cardiac arrest at home in my bedroom. As 1 bruce 1 says, if a cat did actually have a heart attack it certainly does give credence to the fact that the cat was probably ill in the first place.

I assume that any cat you bring in is "yours" more or less, but I could be wrong about the ins and outs of some TNR groups. Why would they not allow you to take the cat back and continue with its treatment in any way that you would like to proceed. You did not injure the cat, are not liable for the eye (whatever is going on) and are a Good Samaritan trying to help. Maybe be prepared with a story about how your vet will look at the cat with the bad eye if they feel that TNR is not a good option.

 

[surya]

The only problem with putting the cat in the bedroom is the cat might have flea's and get into your bedding or carpet. And there is a small chance the cat could carry airborne pathogens or whatever (a risk to your own cats if you have them). I take rugs and towels out of the bathroom and clean up well with bleach afterwards to sanitize. I would check on what the policy of your TNR group is on euthanizing cats. Hopefully they would not object to you getting further treatment at your own vet.

 

[jen]

I am going to PM you and I can help out. I live in Summit county and work in Portage and go to Geauga county all the time. I have also been doing TNR for a long time as well. Although it has been quite a few years. It is absolutely a good idea to TNR them and I would actually suggest not leaving them trapped in their safe spot, but rather in a garage or your apartment. I would be worried that leaving them trapped in their home would traumatize them more. Regardless your coworkers suggestion of leaving them unspayed as a solution is just silly.

I just realize my location still says LA but I just moved back home here.

 

[catsknowme]

You are doing the right thing!! So wonderful to see that Jen is able to help. with ferals, calm, sure, deliberate motions are a must. All the preparations and planning are so worth it - it truly is a "long hike for a short slide".

Ideally, you would have a recovery cage (a medium-to-large dog crate). Cardboard should be put down (you can "pre-season" a few flat pieces by putting them down in the cats' home area, to get the scents of home) on the floor of the crate. A cardboard box as a cave, and a litter box of some sort with leaves and dirt also from the cats territory placed behind it and kitties will be more comfortable and less scared. I still cover it all with a blanket or towels. Food & water dishes can be attached to the door but typically, the cats are released prior to that.

I am so looking forward to updates!

 

[Willowy]

Do you think someone has already spayed them? It's almost impossible for an unspayed cat to not get pregent in over a year, let alone several females. Cats usually have 2-3 litters a year. Which is why, yes, it's always worth it to spay them!