Questions about crystals and utis

[minka]

Okay, so I'm helping out a friend who might make an account here soon, and basically she has a cat that got so crystal blocked, it went all the way up to his kidneys. This also caused him to get a uti.

Right now she has him on the vet dry diet for uti (c/d I think) with water added at each meal. (c/d wet is Very expensive..)

Anyways, I know that for uti's, basically all you need to do is switch to wet or raw and you are set. However..isnt it the case that depending on what kind of crystals he has (struvite vs ????), he Does need some kind of supplement/something shouldn't be in the food so crystals don't reform?

Basically I didn't want to suggest a switch to wet only if he's got the type of crystals that do warrant him on the c/d and/or with some kind of ph balancer.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I believe you are correct...there is a difference depending on what kind of crystals they are.  Maybe you can get some help from this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/238161/struvite-and-food

 

[amundaloo]

Raw?? No, no, no, no! That is not a reasonable suggestion. Please do not go the raw route. Raw diets contain salmonella and if your friend cuddles their cat, they are at risk of getting salmonella poisoning. I work at a vet clinic and have seen this happen on numerous occasions. 

Stick with C/D or Royal Canin Medi Cal Urinary SO. I understand that the diet (especially the cans) are expensive but I would think that a preventive diet is a lot less expensive than having him visit the vet on an emergency basis to be unblocked. Struvite crystals are the most common types and can be mostly eliminated by sticking with an appropriate diet designed for urine health. 

 

[-_aj_-]

Minka there is some fabulous advice in the Raw forum, that will probably be the best place to ask the question I know they have dealt with all sorts and which would be best

 

[minka]

Raw?? No, no, no, no! That is not a reasonable suggestion. Please do not go the raw route. Raw diets contain salmonella and if your friend cuddles their cat, they are at risk of getting salmonella poisoning. I work at a vet clinic and have seen this happen on numerous occasions. 

Stick with C/D or Royal Canin Medi Cal Urinary SO. I understand that the diet (especially the cans) are expensive but I would think that a preventive diet is a lot less expensive than having him visit the vet on an emergency basis to be unblocked. Struvite crystals are the most common types and can be mostly eliminated by sticking with an appropriate diet designed for urine health. 

If you have documented proof of cats getting salmonella from raw, I would LOVE to see it.
Myself as well as many others here on this forum feed raw with no such issues and we can not find any documented cases anywhere on the internet as well.
The only cases are always from eating dry food.

A preventative diet would not be a urinary diet because that is only given After the occurance of crystals. A preventative diet would be a moisture filled one.


________
I'll give the rest of my responses later!

 

[ldg]

Anyways, I know that for uti's, basically all you need to do is switch to wet or raw and you are set. However..isnt it the case that depending on what kind of crystals he has (struvite vs ????), he Does need some kind of supplement/something shouldn't be in the food so crystals don't reform?

A cat's urine pH should be around 6.0 to 6.5. Struvite crystals form in urine that is to alkaline, and oxalate crystals form in urine that is too acidic. Only struvite crystals can be dissolved by diet. Oxalate must be flushed, or if too large for flushing, surgically removed. After that, only diet can prevent them.

But it's not only diet that impacts urine pH: stress also impacts it, which is why for some kitties, diet change alone doesn't fix the problem. Stress can raise urine pH. Also the number of meals fed impacts urine pH. The longer between meals, the wider the swings. So for FLUTD kitties, often many small meals may be needed to help control the problem, by keeping the urine pH more stable over a 24 hour period.

For a kitty that already has crystals, it isn't necessarily as easy as just switching to raw or wet. It needs to be a high protein, low carb diet, for starters, because the carbs create a high urine pH. Foods high in oxalates (for kitties with oxalate issues) should be avoided: spinach, carrots - any dark leafy greens, actually.

The Hill's c/d (and perhaps the Royal Canin SO, though I'm not as familiar with it) work a) because their predominant protein is corn, which has been shown to create less struvites than chicken or meat meal (likely the ash); and they have urine acidifiers in them. Hill's uses methionine. But an FYI for people using prescription diets: in 1998 Purina found a potential link between the long term use of urine acidifiers added to cat food an chronic renal failure. 80% of cats with CRF had kidney acidosis, most likely from the acidifiers used in the food: http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

Methinione is a naturally occurring amino acid found in meat, which is why a raw diet is so good for kitties - if they don't have a pre-existing problem, a raw diet creates the perfect urine pH naturally without being given in excess. HOWEVER... if kitty already has a struvite problem, it can be difficult to control, even with a raw diet. The struvite crystals themselves raise the urine pH, and it becomes a cycle that can be difficult to break without at least temporary use of a urine acidifier and a LOT of fluids - best delivered sub-q. We're having this issue with Spooky. She apparently had 3 struvite stones going into the raw diet. We DID dissolve them with the diet - but they did not completely leave her bladder. The last ultrasound showed a "sludge" in there (despite the use of additional methionine and numerous rounds of sub-q fluids), and I'm battling getting her urine pH down below 7 - and that's WITH 1,500mg of methionine being added TO her raw food.

It is not safe to administer urine acidifiers on your own, it should only be done under vet supervision. Methionine can trigger the Heinz body anemia, for instance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3826869

So while diet is the most important consideration in crystal formation, and moisture in food the number one solution, the composition of the food, how often kitty is fed, and stress are all potential factors.

 

[minka]

Minka there is some fabulous advice in the Raw forum, that will probably be the best place to ask the question I know they have dealt with all sorts and which would be best

I'm not actually looking for raw advice, only wet, I just mentioned it in the original post because I was giving examples of the options.
Thanks though! :nod:

I believe you are correct...there is a difference depending on what kind of crystals they are.  Maybe you can get some help from this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/238161/struvite-and-food

Thanks, I'll take a look!

Anyways, I know that for uti's, basically all you need to do is switch to wet or raw and you are set. However..isnt it the case that depending on what kind of crystals he has (struvite vs ????), he Does need some kind of supplement/something shouldn't be in the food so crystals don't reform?

A cat's urine pH should be around 6.0 to 6.5. Struvite crystals form in urine that is to alkaline, and oxalate crystals form in urine that is too acidic. Only struvite crystals can be dissolved by diet. Oxalate must be flushed, or if too large for flushing, surgically removed. After that, only diet can prevent them.

But it's not only diet that impacts urine pH: stress also impacts it, which is why for some kitties, diet change alone doesn't fix the problem. Stress can raise urine pH. Also the number of meals fed impacts urine pH. The longer between meals, the wider the swings. So for FLUTD kitties, often many small meals may be needed to help control the problem, by keeping the urine pH more stable over a 24 hour period.

For a kitty that already has crystals, it isn't necessarily as easy as just switching to raw or wet. It needs to be a high protein, low carb diet, for starters, because the carbs create a high urine pH. Foods high in oxalates (for kitties with oxalate issues) should be avoided: spinach, carrots - any dark leafy greens, actually.

The Hill's c/d (and perhaps the Royal Canin SO, though I'm not as familiar with it) work a) because their predominant protein is corn, which has been shown to create less struvites than chicken or meat meal (likely the ash); and they have urine acidifiers in them. Hill's uses methionine. But an FYI for people using prescription diets: in 1998 Purina found a potential link between the long term use of urine acidifiers added to cat food an chronic renal failure. 80% of cats with CRF had kidney acidosis, most likely from the acidifiers used in the food: http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1998_vol3.pdf

Methinione is a naturally occurring amino acid found in meat, which is why a raw diet is so good for kitties - if they don't have a pre-existing problem, a raw diet creates the perfect urine pH naturally without being given in excess. HOWEVER... if kitty already has a struvite problem, it can be difficult to control, even with a raw diet. The struvite crystals themselves raise the urine pH, and it becomes a cycle that can be difficult to break without at least temporary use of a urine acidifier and a LOT of fluids - best delivered sub-q. We're having this issue with Spooky. She apparently had 3 struvite stones going into the raw diet. We DID dissolve them with the diet - but they did not completely leave her bladder. The last ultrasound showed a "sludge" in there (despite the use of additional methionine and numerous rounds of sub-q fluids), and I'm battling getting her urine pH down below 7 - and that's WITH 1,500mg of methionine being added TO her raw food.

It is not safe to administer urine acidifiers on your own, it should only be done under vet supervision. Methionine can trigger the Heinz body anemia, for instance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3826869

So while diet is the most important consideration in crystal formation, and moisture in food the number one solution, the composition of the food, how often kitty is fed, and stress are all potential factors.

I think this will answer all her questions! I'll have to email it though because there's no way I can paraphrase :lol3:
Thanks!