Question for Modifying Hare Today Meat

[alexiso]

Hi everyone! 

My cats have been on raw for a few weeks now and I buy my meat from Hare Today: both the chicken mix and rabbit mix with organs and bones and add my own supplements (eggs, taurine, vitamin E, B, Fish Oil lite salt and psyllium husk powder). I'm finding one of my cats (who has had GI issues in the past with loose stools) is passing bloody stool that is dry. I haven't witness him using the litter box, just the aftermath since he leaves it uncovered for me to see. 

I like ordering from HT, I'm not willing to buy a grinder and do the whole nine yards for myself so I wanted to ask how I could modify the HT meat to get less bone? Or should I add extra supplements for the cat to help pass stool easier? Extra psyllium husk? 

Would buying the regular 5lb tube of ground chicken/bones/organs and then adding HT's plain ground chicken work? 

I looked up going bone-free by adding calcium or eggshell powder but I don't know if I'm comfortable with that.  

I also add extra water to their bowls to try and keep them as hydrated as possible. This poor cat is the only one who seems to be having trouble. 

Any help is appreciated, thank you! 

 

[maureen brad]

Hi, I also buy my meat from HT. I do both bone and no bone. Both are easy. In making up the 5 lbs chubs of ground with bone I add 2 lbs of boneless. Sometimes I buy the chicken thighs and chunk them and add that or just 2 lbs of ground chicken breast. I then use the Alnutrin for meat and bone and add 7 scoops. Oh I usually add some more organ. Using the boneless is easy for every 4 lbs add 1 lbs ground organ and Alnutrin. I always buy the chicken or Turkey thigh cubes for that and just run them through my food processor. I do that because it is less expensive.

 The chicken grinds are pretty boney and so is the rabbit ( unless you buy the whole rabbit) I have to add the boneless or my cats would be constipated.

 FYI- The whole rabbit grinds are a big hit with my cats. I ordered a 1 lbs chub just to try it out and the cats went crazy for it. From now on that is what I will buy, it is much less expensive and so good for their digestion.

 

[alexiso]

Thank you so much for the response! I really appreciate it! 

For the whole rabbit grind you mentioned - is that what's listed on their site that includes the fur and everything? I got the rabbit that's just bone/organs and 2 out of 3 cats really liked it. I am a bit concerned with all the bone in the rabbit grind and the size - I've pulled out some dangerous-looking slivers while making their food. The cat with the stool problem loves rabbit, he's a cat that needs variety. 

 

[maureen brad]

Yes, the whole grind rabbit does come fur and all. I was so surprised that my cats liked it but they really, really liked it. I have always bought the fine ground rabbit chubs previously but never the 3 lbs coarse ground. I have never found a sliver  or anything like that .The whole ground fur and all are at about 10% bone which, is good. For the fine grind without fur I always add ground turkey thighs for the fat and to dilute the bone.

I think most cats need variety. I make ground with bone and add chunked meat to that. I also feed boneless , and some freeze -dried. I stick mostly to  Chicken, Turkey and rabbit but also order the venison chunks and serve that once a week with ground rabbit organs. I order pork sometimes and quail and pheasant. MY cats love the duck hearts too. I think HT is truly a godsend.

 

[ldg]

Yeah, I'm not comfortable with the coarse ground stuff. They sent me coarse ground pork once by mistake and there were some large, sharp shards in there. I stick to the fine ground.

My cats also LOVE the whole ground rabbit, fur and all. They definitely prefer it to the meat/bone/organ rabbit. It's a bit drier, which most of mine do prefer as they prefer chunks and chewing to licking (most of them).

As to the bloody stools - I suggest trying your recipe without the psyllium.

If you're concerned about constipation due to the bone content, as Maureen says, you need to cut the bone content. There have been a number of cats now that do not do well with psyllium.

Here's a calculator that helps. All you have to do is know the bone content. Whole rabbit most places is listed as having a bone content of about 10%, but Tracy of HT says it is 15%. :dk: When thinning out a meat/bone/organ mix, *technically* to keep it balanced, organs should be added in the correct proportion. This makes it easy! http://jsfiddle.net/fjkemr77/2/embedded/result/

 

[maureen brad]

LDG- I had stumbled onto a post of yours which mentioned the HT ground rabbit fur and all and how much your cats liked it. That is why I decided to give it a try. I am thrilled that Desmond and Milo love it so much. That will save me some money and, I like to see them so enthusiastic about their food.

 

[geely]

LDG-or anyone would you know if you add additional meat do you need to add additional calcium? For example I used your calculator to get the bone percentage down to around 7-8 percentage as my cat suffers from constipation. So i would be pretty much be doubling the meat, which is fine and i have done this in the past  used a 5lb roll of the rabbit meat bones plus around 4-5 boneless meat and organs and it worked really good for my cat, no constipation. i had added extra egg shell calcium for the additional meat, but I wondered if I should have done that.

 

[ldg]

No, the point of the calculator is to find out the correct proportions of meat and organ to add to a bone-in grind to reduce the bone content to the correct 7% - 8% that is naturally in a cat's diet. If you provide the correct percentage of bone, the calciumhosphorus ratio should be in proper proportions. Not all cats will become constipated on a high calcium content, just as not all cats will develop soft stools or diarrhea when there is too little calcium in the diet.

There are only 2 ways to provide the correct balance:

1) using the prey model raw method, whereby Ca is determined by the percentage of bone in the diet, not a known number, or
2) not using fresh bone, but using a bone alternative such as freeze dried bone or eggshell where we know the calcium content, and we balance based on numbers and target a specific calciumhosphorus ratio.

Here is further discussion on the subject: http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...n-and-how-to-use-them-in-a-raw-fed-cats-diet/

 

[alexiso]

That calculator is great, thank you! 

Do you think the psyllium is too much fiber for him? I don't know why I didn't think of that myself. My next batch I will leave it out. Until I get my next HT shipment, hopefully by Tuesday the 3rd barring no weather issues, I'm going to be feeding him a mix of raw with some cans of Fromm soft food I still have from the transition. Unless there's a better way? 

I also heard you could add a small amount coconut oil to the food to help or is that wrong? I have organic coconut oil and can add that today. 

I'll check out the fur-and-all rabbit grind. My cats prefer their food wet-wet so I add a couple tablespoons of warm water to their bowls (and also because of the FLUTD cat) 

Question: The cat that is having the stool issue prefers the rabbit over chicken and since introducing the rabbit he isn't enthusiastic about the chicken anymore unless I sprinkle some of Feline Instinct's chicken liver powder on it. I received a sample when I tried out their pre-mix and was thinking of ordering a bag of it, is it ok to constantly sprinkle that on his chicken? It says it's for introductory purposes and I only give his food a conservative dusting. 

 

[ldg]

Fiber usually isn't needed unless there is a known motility problem. I do not give my cats any fiber as a matter of routine.

My cats love freeze dried liver. I often use it as a "topper" to entice them to finish a meal, or eat a meal they're not in love with.

As to the coconut oil, here are two differing views, each from a vet. Pro-coconut oil for cats is Dr. Becker, blogging at the HealthyPets section of the Mercola website:


Anti-coconut oil for cats is Dr. Hofve. The discussion of coconut oil for cats is in her newsletter of last summer: http://www.littlebigcat.com/catswalk-newsletter/catswalk-newsletter-summer-2014/

I would rather use animal-based omega 3s and probiotics. In fact, that's what I do use. :lol3:

 

[alexiso]

Thanks for those links about the coconut oil, I find both very compelling! 

I really appreciate all the help you've given me, you're the cat guru!