Question about Denamarin

[violet]

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative... Having found myself dealing with this multiple species(3 so far) .... I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work... ie work with your Vet and Your cat

I completely agree diet is key but finding a base cause or likely cause will aid you in the correct diet for your cat.. Ie dry food is less known as a culprit for some abnormal results than a newer "close" to nature diet many are using.

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative....

Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low (cats do need a certain amount of fat in their diet in order to stay healthy) is very important and it makes a huge big difference for a cat that is for some unknown reason susceptible to liver problems. (I seem to have one of those.)

dry food is less known as a culprit

Key words: less known. Diet change and test results: proof.

Also, since one particular brand of food has been linked to hepatic lipidosis in cats and certain diets are known to cause liver damage, it's not unreasonable to consider diet as a possible base cause when no other cause can be found. When it comes to liver damage for which there is no good explanation, both canned and dry food must be looked at closely as possible contributing factors.

a newer "close" to nature diet

Unbalanced fad diets are known to cause liver damage, in fact significant liver damage in some cases. Also seizures and dangerously elevated phosphorus levels. All of this damage can be reversed with a nutritionally complete, balanced diet.

I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work...

Which can translate to: seek help from a very good, very knowledgeable holistic vet.
(Holistic vets can do some incredible things for liver disease.)

 

[sharky]

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative....

Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low (cats do need a certain amount of fat in their diet in order to stay healthy) is very important and it makes a huge big difference for a cat that is for some unknown reason susceptible to liver problems. (I seem to have one of those.)

Like kidney disease before it .. so far liver disease is poorly understood and thus in many cases poorly diagnosed and managed... I can note Several cases in MY home that "low fat" actually made it worse( what low fat is also is relative, kinda like low protein)...



dry food is less known as a culprit

Key words: less known. Diet change and test results: proof. Proof and diet unfortunately are speculative in this type of issue( do mostly to the other factors that change

Also, since one particular brand of food has been linked to hepatic lipidosis in cats and certain diets are known to cause liver damage, it's not unreasonable to consider diet as a possible base cause when no other cause can be found. When it comes to liver damage for which there is no good explanation, both canned and dry food must be looked at closely as possible contributing factors.

a newer "close" to nature diet

Trust me many many foods are suspect, Maybe one day like the ash of yester years we will find out what causes a food to initiate or exacerbate liver issues.. I would love to see Proof of a food that has been documented for causing lipidosis as would many on here so they can avoid it ..

Unbalanced fad diets are known to cause liver damage, in fact significant liver damage in some cases. Also seizures and dangerously elevated phosphorus levels. All of this damage can be reversed with a nutritionally complete, balanced diet.

I am actually not talking about Fade or Uneducated owner diets... But very balanced, biologically appropriate diets that can skew test results, often giving false positives where the animal actually has no deficiency or disease.. I would love to see proof of reversal... I can say that is a word I would rarely use, it is a lot like saying cure the incurable... Seizures in many animals are able to be controlled via diet depending what the origin truly is

I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work...

Which can translate to: seek help from a very good, very knowledgeable holistic vet.
(Holistic vets can do some incredible things for liver disease.)[/quote]
100% agree , but make sure the knowledge is truly based in science as many claim to know and seem to know but do not... Of course in my case it was also standard holistic that did not work, for Three different species


WOW I love the hairball article... that is one I need to print out for a few folks

 

[violet]

Just a couple of thoughts very quickly.

so far liver disease is poorly understood and thus in many cases poorly diagnosed and managed... I can note Several cases in MY home that "low fat" actually made it worse( what low fat is also is relative, kinda like low protein)...

Poorly understood....... mainly because the obvious - an individual's unique reaction to foods, food additives, other chemicals, even vaccinations, based on the individuals unique body chemistry is being ignored. An individualized approach looks at all the factors that can be involved and works with all those factors in mind rather than ignoring them and trying to treat with one of the few standard approaches.

Relatively low and low: not the same thing. Two very different things. However, your experience proves the need for the individualized approach.

Proof and diet unfortunately are speculative in this type of issue( do mostly to the other factors that change

I have to say, nothing speculative here. Diet change involving one particular food. Specific change, very clear test results. No other factors involved, meaning no meds, no supplements. Nothing else to influence the test results in any way. Retest specifically to find out if diet change had an effect.

Trust me many many foods are suspect, Maybe one day like the ash of yester years we will find out what causes a food to initiate or exacerbate liver issues.. I would love to see Proof of a food that has been documented for causing lipidosis as would many on here so they can avoid it ..

Trust me many many foods are suspect

I know.

Maybe one day like the ash of yester years we will find out what causes a food to initiate or exacerbate liver issues

They already know some very important things, just like they know some very important things about the connection between food and diabetes. In fact, it's quite an eye-opener when glucose and ALT go down at the same time (after a diet change) in a cat that had elevated glucose and elevated ALT as well.

I would love to see Proof of a food that has been documented for causing lipidosis as would many on here so they can avoid it ..

I suppose you could find and contact vets who have experience with this issue. And then a vet would have to be willing to come here and talk about it. It would be inconceivable for any of us to name a food and warn folks against it. It would be unfair to the manufacturer. And, no doubt, it would create a legal matter.

I am actually not talking about Fade or Uneducated owner diets... But very balanced, biologically appropriate diets that can skew test results, often giving false positives where the animal actually has no deficiency or disease.. I would love to see proof of reversal... I can say that is a word I would rarely use, it is a lot like saying cure the incurable... Seizures in many animals are able to be controlled via diet depending what the origin truly is

False positive? Absolutely not. When liver enzymes become elevated, that's very real. The liver is reacting to something. And there is a very real reason. Food, supplements, meds, all can cause the liver enzymes to go up. Changing food, stopping supplements, etc, whatever is the exact cause, makes the enzymes go back down. A relatively short-term problem can be corrected/reversed in as little as thirty days. If the wrong diet or supplement was used for a very long time, the damage might be very serious.

Seizures in many animals are able to be controlled via diet depending what the origin truly is

What I was talking about here were seizures caused by an unbalanced diet. Not anything else, no other underlying cause. Illness, symptoms, brought on by a specific diet change. Change to an unbalanced diet affecting previously perfectly healthy animals with previously perfect test results. If you ask vets who treat such animals they will tell you the animals respond very well to diet change that corrects the imbalances.

Of course in my case it was also standard holistic that did not work,

Treatment has to be individualized in order to work. In some cases the holistic vet has to try many, many different things to get results. Some don't have the patience and, one would have to suspect, some don't have the knowledge. So it's the standard approach and then nothing if that didn't work.

 

[otto]

Violet it would be very helpful if you would please tell us this food you keep mentioning that is "known" to cause liver problems.

What food is it, and links to information telling us why it's bad would be very helpful, especially to those of us who deal with liver problems in cats every day.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by otto

Violet it would be very helpful if you would please tell us this food you keep mentioning that is "known" to cause liver problems.

What food is it, and links to information telling us why it's bad would be very helpful, especially to those of us who deal with liver problems in cats every day.

The above would be very helpful .... and if it is a legal issue: Has it actually Not been proven by a legit source?



Poorly understood....... mainly because the obvious - an individual's unique reaction to foods, food additives, other chemicals, even vaccinations, based on the individuals unique body chemistry is being ignored. An individualized approach looks at all the factors that can be involved and works with all those factors in mind rather than ignoring them and trying to treat with one of the few standard approaches.

Relatively low and low: not the same thing. Two very different things. However, your experience proves the need for the individualized approach.
I suggest re reading your writing as it makes some of the rest not make sense.. It is actually the same thing as my low and 3 vets lows are likely at least 2 different numbers , likely 3 to 4... I had one vet tell me low fat was 30%

I have to say, nothing speculative here. Diet change involving one particular food. Specific change, very clear test results. No other factors involved, meaning no meds, no supplements. Nothing else to influence the test results in any way. Retest specifically to find out if diet change had an effect.
I would wonder if one was dealing with a good vet who had a reasonable education if they only did a diet change.

They already know some very important things, just like they know some very important things about the connection between food and diabetes. In fact, it's quite an eye-opener when glucose and ALT go down at the same time (after a diet change) in a cat that had elevated glucose and elevated ALT as well.
If a cat has elevated liver and something , yes it would be easy to say diet fixed it but likely this animal is also on Meds...



I suppose you could find and contact vets who have experience with this issue. And then a vet would have to be willing to come here and talk about it. It would be inconceivable for any of us to name a food and warn folks against it. It would be unfair to the manufacturer. And, no doubt, it would create a legal matter.
I suspect many will stop reading on this matter as you are Not giving proof to back up a claim.... Many on here have or are dealing with this issue... I have dealt with no fewer than 10 vets on this issue and never has a brand been suspect.


False positive? Absolutely not. When liver enzymes become elevated, that's very real. The liver is reacting to something. And there is a very real reason. Food, supplements, meds, all can cause the liver enzymes to go up. Changing food, stopping supplements, etc, whatever is the exact cause, makes the enzymes go back down. A relatively short-term problem can be corrected/reversed in as little as thirty days. If the wrong diet or supplement was used for a very long time, the damage might be very serious.
This is where Years and Multiple animals experience comes into play.. I does happen alot... I did not know either till a discussion with three vets over a Very young cat with off results.Reacting does Not always = problem .....





Treatment has to be individualized in order to work. In some cases the holistic vet has to try many, many different things to get results. Some don't have the patience and, one would have to suspect, some don't have the knowledge. So it's the standard approach and then nothing if that didn't work.[/quote]

I agree many do not have patience whether holistic or traditional

 

[violet]

otto

I don't know any details, nothing about why that particular food might be bad. So I don't have anything, any specifics that is, to share.
I just mentioned this to illustrate that vets know about some things we don't.

 

[violet]

sharky

I suspect many will stop reading on this matter as you are Not giving proof to back up a claim....

I'm not trying to and don't intend to. Just mentioned something because it's real and food for thought.

I would wonder if one was dealing with a good vet who had a reasonable education if they only did a diet change.

Please think about what you're saying. One might think you're trying to criticize or disparage a vet you don't know anything about.

 

[helen drye]

I did tell what was going on with my cat and her age a so on.you just need to .look or I don't know how to us this site thanks for nothing.

 

[orientalslave]

I did tell what was going on with my cat and her age a so on.you just need to .look or I don't know how to us this site thanks for nothing.

Wrong thread - not the one you have posted in which is:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/255539/need-help-with-my-cat-and-denamarin

And I can't see anything about your cat in that thread, which is where you need to put it.  If it's in your profile people won't bother looking there.