Queen’s Strange Behavior Toward Kittens From Different Litters

[RavenMistwolf]

I recently witnessed a strange phenomenon I was wondering if anyone else here had witnessed and/or could shed some light on. But I’ll start with a bit of backstory.

There’s a feral cat that I have gained the trust of over the last couple years. On March 28, she gave birth to a litter of 3 kittens on my patio and allowed me to handle them regularly. She was always an extremely attentive mother. She would groom them, nuzzle them, play with them, and even taught them to hunt. However, when they were eating solid food and getting big enough to get off my patio, I started bringing them inside at night because there were 5 owls (3 of them were also babies) living right next to my apartment and I knew the kittens would be easy pickings. The mom didn’t like this, but adjusted fairly quickly. I gradually kept them inside more and more of the time, letting them out to socialize with mom for a few hours a day. Mom always recognized them and greeted them with the same level of care she had always shown them. She even let them suckle on her long after they were weaned. It was something they LOVED to do anytime they saw her.

Fast forward to about 3 weeks ago on August 6. I still had 2 of the 3 kittens with me (one would go to her forever home two days later, so I only have 1 remaining from that March litter) and she still treats them exactly the same: grooming, playing, nursing, etc.. She gave birth to a new litter of 5 kittens that morning and continued to let the kittens from the March litter nurse on her all the way up until the actual birth of the first kitten on the 6th. They even comforted her while she was in labor. But almost immediately after she was finished giving birth, she stopped being so warm to her older kittens. In the weeks since then, she has even meowed warnings to the remaining kitten whenever she got too close to the new litter. It’s like she doesn’t remember that this 5 month old kitten is hers.

But that’s not even all of it! Almost immediately after mom finished giving birth to her new litter, her older kittens stopped turning to her for comfort and companionship as much. It’s like some flip switched in all of them at the same time.

I have never seen this before (as this is my first time with a cat giving birth and going through all this). And I can’t find anything online about this behavior. Everything is about a queen and her current litter, but nothing about how the birth of a new litter affects her relationship with offspring from previous litters.

So does anyone here have experience with this? Can you explain why it happened? If it’s normal? Have there been any studies done on this? Will she get close with her older kitten again as the newer litter gets older? Is there anything else you can share?

Thanks in advance for all feedback!



P.S. please don’t read this post in the tone of someone who is worried and freaking out. I know they’re both perfectly fine and I’m not worried at all about this behavior. I was just surprised and consequently curious. It wasn’t something I expected and now I’d just like to know more.

 

[catsknowme]

Sometimes the mama kitty is worried that one of the older kittens, especially from a different father, will kill the newborns. Once the newbies are the amusing, older stage, she relaxes and the entire family reunites.

 

[RavenMistwolf]

That does make sense. Though I’m pretty sure they have the same dad.. and why would the kittens change their behavior too?

 

[susanm9006]

Cats are, I think, capable of communicating with one another. Their mom sent a message and they understood it.

 

[danteshuman]

Also just chiming in, can you start practicing picking up the mom? Can you lift her chest so her front paws dangle off the ground while she remains comfortable? If so you may be able to make her a reformed feral.

If not please look into what TNR programs are around in your area. The sad truth is life on the streets is brutal for cats and the survival rate for kittens is low!

Can you make her a insulated outdoor cat house so she has a dry safe spot for her & her babies to sleep? A plastic tub with a square cut into the side a couple inches from the bottom will do in a pinch. (With straw or a towel inside)

 

[RavenMistwolf]

can you start practicing picking up the mom? Can you lift her chest so her front paws dangle off the ground while she remains comfortable? If so you may be able to make her a reformed feral.

I have actually been working on this very slowly since knowing her. I highly doubt she’ll ever let me pick her up fully, but she does let me kind of pick up her front end and scoot her around. But I’m still the only human she trusts.

If not please look into what TNR programs are around in your area. The sad truth is life on the streets is brutal for cats and the survival rate for kittens is low!

I’m definitely aware of that. It’s quite sad. She actually had 3 litters before the one in March. Before she trusted me enough to have them on my patio. I caught glimpses of a couple of them, but it was very clear to me when the kittens disappeared. I don’t know if they died or were taken by some other humans as I live in a large apartment complex, but I do know it was sudden and before they would’ve naturally gone off on their own.

Anyway, that’s beside the point. I’m already planning to get her spayed either this weekend or the next (depending on when the place has availabilities). I meant to get it done sooner, but the humane society here (the only local TNR place) only accepts cats for TNR at like 8am on Fridays and she wasn’t around regularly enough for that. Now that she is, I’m gonna get it done ASAP! In the past, I waited longer because vets discouraged it while she was nursing, but then she’d get pregnant again before her kittens were weaned. Since I know she’ll continue producing milk for her kittens, I’m not going to wait that long this time.

Can you make her a insulated outdoor cat house so she has a dry safe spot for her & her babies to sleep? A plastic tub with a square cut into the side a couple inches from the bottom will do in a pinch. (With straw or a towel inside)

That’s actually what I did for the March litter! And they all survived and are perfectly healthy. Then something incredible happened with the litter she had 3 weeks ago. She decided to give birth to them inside my apartment!!! I’m still shocked about this. I gave her plenty of opportunities to bring her kittens into the patio since she was clearly not comfortable being closed inside and I have no way to give her the ability to come and go whenever she wants, but she chose to keep the kittens inside. In fact, the couple times she saw them outside (whether she had carried them there or I had moved them to try to help her out), she immediately picked one up to move them back inside. It was the greatest thing!!! She has been staying inside since the birth, going out maybe 2-3 hours a day most days (but not every day). And she pretty much gets along with my indoor cats too! No fights or anything. They just hiss at her every once in a while. (I had to trap her and bring her to a vet once last year while she was still nursing a litter she didn’t let me see. She had a very large abscess on her face that had burst and I was afraid of infection. While there, she also got the 3 core vaccines and was tested for FeLV and FIV and was clean. All 3 kittens from the March litter were also tested for these and came back clean too, so I’m not worried about that. Plus, my indoor cats are fully vaccinated AND they had socialized with her previously, so she wasn’t a complete stranger when she came in.)

 

[RavenMistwolf]

Cats are, I think, capable of communicating with one another. Their mom sent a message and they understood it.

Oh I have no doubt they can communicate with each other! I just wish I spoke their language.

 

[catsknowme]

Oh I have no doubt they can communicate with each other! I just wish I spoke their language.

I have learned a lot of "cat speak" from Jcatbird who has a long-running thread which you can read at any point, whether from the beginning or start with the most recent posts and work your way backwards.
My Feral And Rescued Cats

Mama kitty obviously trusts you the most because she keeps her babies safe with you inside your home. That highly unusual behavior is telling - whatever took her previous litters away has upset her enough to overcome her instinctive fears of people and of being inside - what a dedicated and courageous mother!

 

[danteshuman]

Wow what a good mom!!! & what a caring compassionate human who has gone above & beyond!!!!!

I’m sorry for bringing up TNR but you would be surprised how many people don’t know about it (or who want their pets to keep having kittens without any idea who will wind adopting the kittens!!!) I’m relieved to hear you already have this covered!

My mom’s reformed fetal learned from my boys when I moved in (I also insisted on getting him vaccinated & the vet insisted on neutering him that day, so he was.) I taught my boys to sit for treats and they were experts at begging for treats by sitting quietly before we moved in. One day I shake the treat bag and my 2 boys plus the semi-feral Chester are all sitting quietly in front of me. So I gave them all treats of course & included him in things! There are many websites about how to bring a feral in. I can tell you that she will want to be an indoor/outdoor cat for life (Chester can use a litter box when trapped in a room but prefers the backyard.) Now that ChesChes is neutered and getting older he spends most of his daytime hours sleeping on my mom’s bed. Plus a year after he got snipped he started demanding nightly cuddles from my mom (he doesn’t sleep with her, he goes outside & hangs out with his buddy during the night.)

 

[jen]

Are her 5 month old kittens male and intact? They are getting to the age where they can mate with her, sometimes they will harm the kittens to get to her too. So she is pushing them away. Plus it is time for them to go off on their own so she can raise her new litter. It makes sense when you think about it.

 

[RavenMistwolf]

I have learned a lot of "cat speak" from Jcatbird who has a long-running thread which you can read at any point, whether from the beginning or start with the most recent posts and work your way backwards.
My Feral And Rescued Cats

Thanks! I’ve had cats my entire life and am really good at reading their body language and communicating with them and stuff. But it’s still not the same as being able to truly speak with them, which is what I meant.

 

[Jcatbird]

Science may theorize differently but I believe what I observe first hand. Besides having cats around me in my home, I got the opportunity to observe two feral colonies over the years. The most recent was on my land for a long time, over a hundred members and I was able to spend nights and days among them. IMHO , to some extent you can speak to them . If you understand body language then you already know that head butts and licks count along with many other movements so I won’t elaborate there but address vocalizations. It can go much further. Short chirps, trills from the Mom speak to babies. Over my years I have learned that adults do communicate as well. Besides the calls of males to find females, I have seen males protect whole families by calling them to follow him to safety. It was similar to a mating call but very very low volume , short in duration and with a tone of urgency to it. The females and babies quickly responded and followed the male. I have seen both sexes call out to find others if they were alone. A long , and to my ear, sad sounding call. I have a rescued feral now who suddenly started rather frantic short mows to me. Turned out that she spotted a lost kitten outside. I knew she saw something but only after she dashed out for the first time ever ( seemingly to lead the baby here) did I figure out what her pawing at me along with, mow, mow, mow mean. I did save the baby but another cat actually went to the baby to convey that it could trust me. Another set of body motions and a chirp like a Mom cat. The cat that convinced the baby to come to me has been going back out and calling loudly. I would call it a mating call but she was spayed a great many years ago and never displayed this call before when I walk her. I spotted a glimpse of a feral and feel it may be the mother of the baby. I’m still working on that. I think she is calling to that cat. I bet you have heard a call from kitties that is also to locate us humans. When my cats are looking for me they often call. Over my time with all these kitties I have learned other “cat words” lol I am able to imitate the calls just as a duck hunter can use a duck call to bring birds in. If you look at the practice of hunting of different animals it becomes apparent that we can “talk” to the animals. It’s a matter of observing and imitating. Cats do speak to each other and to us. Body language is their primary language because in the wild it is safer to be quiet but verbal abilities do exist. Watch the kitties around you closely, listen carefully and you will learn some of what they are saying. You absolutely can speak to your cats.
You probably already know this but I read in your posts about getting Mom spayed while she still nurses. That is often done. It will make it uncomfortable for her to nurse so you might want to make sure the babies have started on solid food or supplement with bottle feeding. I generally bring the family in and keep all until kittens are weaned and then Spay but I am set up to do that here. I have socialized ferals of all ages.
As to Mom reacting to kittens and vice versa. From both sides, the new babies need the milk. Previous kittens still get comfort and nourishment by nursing but the new babies need it so Mom must draw the line right now. A swat or two to the last litter will make them understand. Mom tends to swat and make a quick ma sound. The kittens understand even though they may try a few times to get back in. Pushing her last litter away is natural but once these kittens are weaned or the others stop trying to nurse, she will probably return to the affection demonstrated before. I have watched generations of Moms, Dads and litters remain bonded. The family unit can be very beautiful to watch. Most cats don’t get the chance to remain together due to humans adopting babies out or ferals being separated by nature. Ferals lives are often short. Predators like the owls, cars, humans or Illness, lack of food and mating rituals can all act to divide families. I was awe struck watching the colony here and seeing the cats protect each other, babysit each other’s babies and show great affection for each other. The sick or injured were often provided with food and care by the cats. It was an experience I feel very fortunate to have witnessed. All colony members are now spayed/neutered and protected. The love and families continue along with my cat education!
Thank you for saving those kitties. You are doing a truly wonderful thing. I hope I was able to answer the questions you had? Sorry it was a long post but it isn’t simple to convey that information.

 

[RavenMistwolf]

Wow what a good mom!!! & what a caring compassionate human who has gone above & beyond!!!!!

Thanks!!

I’m sorry for bringing up TNR but you would be surprised how many people don’t know about it (or who want their pets to keep having kittens without any idea who will wind adopting the kittens!!!) I’m relieved to hear you already have this covered!

That’s fine! I wasn’t offended. =] you brought it up in a very respectful way that made it obvious you were simply trying to spread knowledge. The only time it bugs me is when people get judgey and rude about it. So thank you for your approach.

I taught my boys to sit for treats and they were experts at begging for treats by sitting quietly

Awesome! I actually just randomly decided to teach my cats to sit for treats. I started conditioning a few days ago. I hope they get as good as your cats!

I can tell you that she will want to be an indoor/outdoor cat for life

Lol I agree. I am under no delusion that she’ll be content staying indoors for the rest of her life. But since she was born (I assume) outside and has lived outside for years, I know she knows how to take care of herself outside. So I don’t worry about her. =]

 

[RavenMistwolf]

Are her 5 month old kittens male and intact? They are getting to the age where they can mate with her, sometimes they will harm the kittens to get to her too. So she is pushing them away. Plus it is time for them to go off on their own so she can raise her new litter. It makes sense when you think about it.

That would make perfect sense if that were the case. Luckily it’s not. =]
In the litter in March, she had two females and one male. I got them all fixed as soon as they hit 3 months, and the male went to his new home that same day. So the only kittens from that March litter that were still around were spayed females.

 

[RavenMistwolf]

Besides the calls of males to find females, I have seen males protect whole families by calling them to follow him to safety. It was similar to a mating call but very very low volume , short in duration and with a tone of urgency to it. The females and babies quickly responded and followed the male.

Interesting!! As far as I know, there are only two feral cats here. This female and her boyfriend, as I call him. But some neighbors do also have cats that they let out sometimes, not all of them fixed. But since it’s only two ferals and not a colony, I haven’t really had the opportunity to observe much interaction between them. Though I did name the boyfriend “Tirmo” (which means “watcher”) because he was always pretty close watching the female and he would pay VERY close attention whenever she made noise of any kind.

I have a rescued feral now who suddenly started rather frantic short mows to me. Turned out that she spotted a lost kitten outside. I knew she saw something but only after she dashed out for the first time ever ( seemingly to lead the baby here) did I figure out what her pawing at me along with, mow, mow, mow mean. I did save the baby but another cat actually went to the baby to convey that it could trust me. Another set of body motions and a chirp like a Mom cat. The cat that convinced the baby to come to me has been going back out and calling loudly. I would call it a mating call but she was spayed a great many years ago and never displayed this call before when I walk her. I spotted a glimpse of a feral and feel it may be the mother of the baby.

That is so fascinating! Like.. she still has the trust of the ferals because she grew up as one, but she can also teach them to trust you. That is really neat.

Over my time with all these kitties I have learned other “cat words” lol I am able to imitate the calls just as a duck hunter can use a duck call to bring birds in.

Lol same. I talk to them all the time. What I meant previously about talking with them was that I wish we had the ability to have real conversations like this, where we could ask questions and get clear answers rather than relying on the general meaning of an action.

You probably already know this but I read in your posts about getting Mom spayed while she still nurses. That is often done. It will make it uncomfortable for her to nurse so you might want to make sure the babies have started on solid food or supplement with bottle feeding.

That’s the plan! I already have KMR, a little bottle, and a couple needless syringes to use for feeding them any time they need it. And since mom will be gone all day the day of the surgery, I definitely anticipate bottle feeding them that day. But waiting until they’ve at least kinda started on solid food is also a good idea. Thanks!

I generally bring the family in and keep all until kittens are weaned and then Spay but I am set up to do that here.

That would be ideal. But I live in a fairly small 1-bedroom apartment with indoor cats of my own, so it’s pretty crowded with mom and her babies. Luckily there’s harmony and she is one feral, not a colony, so this won’t be a recurring thing.

As to Mom reacting to kittens and vice versa. From both sides, the new babies need the milk. Previous kittens still get comfort and nourishment by nursing but the new babies need it so Mom must draw the line right now. A swat or two to the last litter will make them understand. Mom tends to swat and make a quick ma sound. The kittens understand even though they may try a few times to get back in. Pushing her last litter away is natural but once these kittens are weaned or the others stop trying to nurse, she will probably return to the affection demonstrated before.

That makes perfect sense! And if that was how it happened, I don’t think I would’ve even needed to ask about it. It was just really weird because there was nothing like that. The older kittens simply stopped trying to nurse and cuddle with mom and mom just stopped trying to cuddle with and groom them. It was like an invisible switch just flipped. It was practically instantaneous.

I have watched generations of Moms, Dads and litters remain bonded. The family unit can be very beautiful to watch. ... I was awe struck watching the colony here and seeing the cats protect each other, babysit each other’s babies and show great affection for each other. The sick or injured were often provided with food and care by the cats. It was an experience I feel very fortunate to have witnessed. All colony members are now spayed/neutered and protected. The love and families continue along with my cat education!

That sounds like an incredible experience! I would love to be able to make observations like this someday.

Sorry it was a long post but it isn’t simple to convey that information.

Lol don’t worry about it. I get it. I type out long messages too, especially when there are a lot of details to cover. I appreciate the time you spent sharing all this!