poops during the transition to raw - what to expect

[abbyntim]

Some of you might know Tim's history: He had a couple of serious constipation episodes that required multiple enemas. After the second one in June 2013, vet put him on cisapride. With the help of a new (holistic) vet, we weaned him off. Last dose was June 27. Month of July spent making sure all was functioning as it should without cisapride.

Tim still has lingering digestive issues and we are trying raw to see if that helps. Holistic vet wanted to wait a good month before beginning the transition. At our visit on August 1, she cleared him to begin the gradual transition to raw. It's going well, he's tolerating the small amount of raw, and seems to enjoy his meals. He is getting 0.5 ounce Primal rabbit mixed with his normal canned rabbit in the morning. We are now up to 1.25 ounce Rad Cat turkey in the evening and will likely jump to 1.5 ounce in the next day or so. My goal is to get him to 1/2 raw and 1/2 canned and hold there for a while.

Because Tim may be prone to constipation, I am obviously watching his poops closely during this transition. I know his poops will get smaller, harder, and drier on raw. And he is likely to go less frequently, too. But I want to know what I should expect to see during the transition. At this time, about 25% of his calories are coming from raw, so not a whole lot. As mentioned, my goal is to get him to 50% and hold there for a while. Should I expect to see changes now, or will this happen with more raw? Or will things remain pretty much the same unless and until he's on 100% raw? Would love to hear from others regarding their experiences during the transition.

Thank you!

 

[abby2932]

I'm glad Tim is doing so well on raw, I can't believe he is at 1.25oz already, that's great!

When my cats were on 50/50, their poop was multicolored or "marbled". (Light and drier in some areas and darker/spongier [like normal, canned/kibble poop] in some areas) Sorry to be so descriptive, but you did ask us! 

 You could tell that it was a bit different from 100% canned but it definitely wasn't raw "victory" poop yet. It was also still stinky. I didn't get the "no smell" poop until we were 100% raw.

Check out this thread when you have time. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261882/marble-poops  I'm not sure if I attached that hyperlink right but if nothing shows up, do a search for "Marble Poop" in this forum and you will see other threads where members have discussed the 50/50 canned/raw poop before. 

Also, I just wanted to ask you if you have a baby/pet scale and are weighing him during the transition? During our transition, my cats were eating 3oz canned for breakfast and 3oz of canned for dinner, so 6oz per cat a day. When I started replacing some of the ounces with raw. I weigh them once a week and noticed that they were slowly gaining weight. I already knew that you don't have to feed as much raw as canned but was pretty shocked to see that for them to be at a stable weight, they each eat LESS than 4oz of raw per cat a day  (approximately 3.6-3.8oz). So each meal (Breakfast & Dinner) only consists of about 1.8oz of raw per cat. So if Tim is already at 1.25 for one meal, he may be closer to 50/50 canned/raw than you expected! 

 

[abbyntim]

Thanks, descriptive is good! I've been very closely monitoring Tim's poop since March when we began the cisapride weaning process, so nothing is too much for me!

Tim has not yet taken any marbled poops, but I'll look out for that. I did notice this morning that a few of his pieces were smaller, drier, and harder, however. I wanted to make sure that smaller, drier, and harder is somewhat normal during the transition and not a sign of possible constipation. Here's something interesting, though: my girl Abby, who has no interest in and is not eating raw, takes marbled poops now and has been for a while. Hers are pretty compact and hardly smell. Guess her digestion is super efficient.

And thanks for the tip about food quantity and weighing the cat. I had read about feeding cats less raw than canned and have been gradually reducing total food quantities as I increase raw. Right now, I am counting Tim's calories, and gradually reducing them, but think I will begin weighing him, as well. He is really complaining about getting less food and I had thought to replace some of the calorie-dense canned food with lower-calorie canned food so he can have the illusion of eating "more". Especially because Abby is eating all canned and Tim watches her very closely to make sure she's not getting something he thinks he should have.

 

[abby2932]

Yes, smaller, drier and harder are definitely signs of raw-fed poop so I think you are fine!

A few red flags of constipation (which I'm sure you already know because you and Tim have been through this for a while!) are: straining a lot while going, excessive meowing, entering the litter box multiple times before going, etc. As long as you're not seeing any of that then I think that the small, drier and harder poops are just part of the raw food journey. 

 

[goholistic]

I'm glad to hear the transition continues to go well. I stumbled upon this thread awhile back and I haven't forgotten about it! LOL.

WARNING: There's photos!

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263398/the-raw-stool-thread-warning-graphic

 

[abbyntim]

Haha, thanks! I've seen that thread and it helped me know what to expect if we ever get to 100% raw. And when we switched the cats from Wellness grain-free canned to Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet canned, their poops became much smaller (and less smelly), which worried me a bit until I realized it happened to both cats, reading this thread helped my mind make a logical connection about less stuff in the food and smaller poops.

Photos and graphic descriptions don't bother me at all. In fact, I appreciate them. If you all only knew ... I measure Tim's almost daily, I record the measurements, the appearance, the texture. Sometimes I break them open, which is how I've come to see he passes a lot of hair now. And I've learned what his look and feel like, when pressing down with the scooper, when it's mostly hair. Cat poop, at least from our cats because they are not disgusting, is so not a big deal to me (and my husband is horrified).

A little off the topic of this thread, but ... I'm pretty happy with Tim's progress except for his lip swelling. It went down earlier this week, then swelled up again. I can see he's getting a mouthful of drool at times. I am wracking my brain, trying to figure out a connection and I hate to say I suspect the NVI canned rabbit. So I am pushing to get Tim on raw as fast as he will tolerate so I can at least reduce the canned rabbit I am feeding him. He was fine when he was eating the "new" formula once per day. He started having problems when we ran out of the "old" and he was eating the "new" twice per day. Nothing on the label has changed, but the food looks different, the color is different and it is looser and more "juicy" (fat), and the cats are not as enthusiastic about it.

At the same time, I don't want to push the raw too quickly and have that cause problems. Because his lip swelled right after I bumped him to 1.25 ounce of raw turkey, I am dropping back to 1.0 ounce to see how he does. If no change, or if the lip improves, I'll bump back to 1.25. I am holding the raw rabbit in the morning steady at 0.5 ounce mixed with his canned rabbit. If I can get him off canned rabbit in the evening so he is eating it only once per day, that will be progress.

Looking back, Tim had a terrible case of diarrhea in early May, about the time the NVI LID turkey formula changed and became more loose and  "juicy" (fat). I tried numerous times to get him back to eating a full meal of turkey and each time he had the drooling issues I am seeing now. At the time, I was afraid he was developing a sensitivity to turkey. Now I tend to think it's not turkey itself, but something about the new and juicy formula. The rabbit recently became more juicy, as well, and that's when his recent troubles started.

In any event, I plan to call the vet this morning to see if she has any thoughts. Last week we both agreed to get him on raw slowly but as quickly as he will tolerate because we are hoping this will help with his lingering digestive issue. I want to give her an update. Maybe I can move faster, maybe I need to slow down.

 

[abbyntim]

Just spoke with our vet. Because Tim is handling the transition well - no diarrhea, no vomiting, behavior is pretty normal - and I suspect the "new" canned rabbit may be the problem, we are going to accelerate the transition. My short-term goal is to get him to where he is eating canned rabbit only once per day. When he was eating this "new" formula only once per day, he was having some drooling episodes, but only once a week or so, not daily like now. So here we go, off and running!!

And Tim had his first "marbled" poops today! And today's was less smelly than yesterday's, so I think we're making good progress.

 

[goholistic]

I don't know what to make of the lip swelling. I hope you get it figured out. Good luck with the acceleration!

 

[abbyntim]

Thanks. We're all a little baffled. I do think it's food-related, though, as the first time this appeared was in February after I switched the cats to a higher-fat food. It seems to have flared up with formula changes or batch differences that look more fatty.

We return to the vet on August 18 for a cardiac ultrasound. Tim was diagnosed with mild HCM in June 2013, so need to check on that. Also doing a chest x-ray to see how his airways look. When his problems started in February, the vets thought he might have mild asthma, as he was coughing all the time. The coughing has stopped, but I want to see how things look.

Long way of saying, if lip and chin is still swollen then, we're going to do more diagnostics to see what's up. Maybe it's not fat-related but some type of allergy??????

 

[ldg]

How's he tolerating the raw so far? If he's not having issues with his poop or vomiting, I see no reason not to increase the pace. Many with kitties with sensitive systems / IBD feed the same amount of raw for 24 hour - if all is OK re: litterbox and vomit, they bump the amount. Carolina had Bugsy on 100% raw in 8 days. She used that one protein as a base to introduce another one - again, it took about a week. Then she had 2 in rotation, & etc.

Given what you outlined, it does seem like it's something in the canned food. The best way to find out is.... remove that food.

 

[abbyntim]

Tim seems to be tolerating raw very well. No vomiting. His stool following his very first meal of raw was about half soft and half normal. I had fed him a full ounce of Rad Cat turkey for that first meal, maybe a bit too much to start with. However, his stools immediately firmed up and have been fine since.

I have hated that Tim's been on only one canned food for several months. Especially now that an apparent formula change seems to not agree with him. But I am afraid to branch out with canned because I don't know what he can and cannot eat. He vomited canned foods with chicken and/or carrageenan, so those are off the table. I am mildly concerned about *gums* and had planned to introduce those slowly, but wanted to get his system settled first.

Thank you for sharing the information about bumping every 24 hours if all looks well. I think I'll try that approach and bump 0.25 ounce if he continues to do well. This seems to be the best way to remove the NVI rabbit. I just wish I could do it faster. But small bumps every 24 hours will get me there; if all goes well with this approach, I am within a day or two of removing the NVI rabbit from his dinner, at least. He was doing a lot better when consuming the new formula only once per day.

 

[ldg]

It's so annoying that they change formulas!!! I'm sorry he's having an issue with it. the transition to full raw goes well - and smoothly.

 

[abbyntim]

Thank you!

Last night was another successful "bump", I think. Tim's stool included one piece that was a bit soft but definitely formed. All other pieces were perfectly firm and most contained hair. And he seems to be enjoying the Rad Cat turkey; he's asking for more, but I don't want to overdo it. That said, we're going to 1.75 ounces tonight as he did well with 1.5 ounces last night. He's a big boy, just over 15 pounds, and does need to lose some weight. So as I increase raw, I am decreasing his calories. Right now, we're going for about 100 calories at his main dinner meal until I see what effect, if any, this has on his weight. The last couple of nights, to supplement his raw, I made a blend of cooked turkey breast and NVI canned rabbit. I am limiting the cooked to 0.5 ounce so as not to "unbalance" things. But with that, I am able to decrease the canned rabbit so tonight it will only be 25-30 calories. Getting there!

Both cats get "bedtime snacks" of 20-25 calories and I am feeding Lotus Just Juicy, either turkey or pork, which is shredded meat and pretty limited ingredient. I also set out a ~10 calorie "daytime snack" in an automatic pet feeder with ice packs. I am using a canned turkey that contains guar gum for that, so I can see how he does. If he does not worsen, I may replace the NVI canned rabbit with this in 0.1 ounce increments at breakfast until I can work on transitioning that meal to raw. Breakfast is where he eats a significant amount of NVI canned rabbit now, but I think we've made progress by removing it from his daytime snack and nearly eliminating it from his dinner.

And yep, I'm pretty sure that food (maybe the brand now as we had similar problems with the NVI LID turkey after what looked like a formula change, though I am not going to experiment until things settle) is his problem. This morning, Tim's lip was swollen, but it looked less so and it was not red. About an hour after eating breakfast, the swelling appeared to increase a bit and it looked "pink". Hard to say, though; it may have been temporary irritation from eating and chop-licking. In any event, I am hopeful our two-prong approach to getting him off that food will work!

 

[abbyntim]

Success at 1.75 ounces. We're going to 2 ounces tonight. And I figured out how to completely eliminate the NVI canned rabbit from his evening meal. We tried it last night and I don't think it caused any problems. Essentially, I bumped the quantity of the plain, cooked turkey breast (~20 calories), then I added in tiny amounts of the two canned turkeys he has already been eating in small amounts (combined ~15 calories). Blended the three together and - no NVI canned rabbit. As we increase raw, I will be maintaining or decreasing those.

Tim's chin is still swollen, but it's getting to be his normal skin color, no longer so red or pink. And it no longer has that "shiny" appearance that inflamed skin often has. I noticed he is still behaving like something is in his mouth. He's had his mouth checked numerous times, but we are going back next Monday and if this hasn't resolved by then, we'll do more.

I want to get Tim to about 3 ounces of Rad Cat turkey for his evening meal. That will be just about 100 calories, which is less than what he is used to eating for dinner. But I understand cats don't need as much raw as canned. Plus, he needs to lose a pound or so. Once we're at 3 ounces, then I'll start working on his morning meal. Once I get him transitioned in the morning, will fine-tune quantities.

Beginning to see some "marbled" poops. And those that are marbled are smaller - yay! His average time between bowel movements is about 30 hours, with times ranging from 25 hours to 39 hours. Does this seem normal? Keep in mind, Tim was on cisapride daily for 9 months, then we gradually tapered his dose for 4 months, so I don't know what is normal for him. To me, this seems fine. But I am also paranoid of constipation.

 

[abby2932]

Great news! I hope his little chin gets better 

I think 25-39 hours is a "normal" range. My cat Malibu consistently poops every day but Kali can go up to 2 days.

 

[ldg]

Yep, I agree with Abby2932. I understand the worry, but on raw they seem to ... store stuff in their colon until there's enough bulk to pass it easily. I only have one cat out of nine that moves his bowls every day. It's good you're adding a tad bit of plain meat. If I remember correctly the Ca of Rad Cat is about 1.3:1, so you've got a little wiggle room there, and that's probably good for him.

And that's great news all around! Especially that his chin is clearing up! Hope it keeps improving.

When did he last have a dental? I don't think this chin problem is related to that. But if he's acting like something in his mouth is bothering him.... they can't necessarily tell from a "look-see" if there's a problem. Most of the time, cats develop resorptive lesions below the gum line, which is why anesthetic dentals are so important.

 

[abbyntim]

Thanks! I think as time goes on, I will become more comfortable with Tim's "schedule". What happened to him (his two terrible constipation episodes) was so awful and I promised I would never let him go through that again.

Regarding the chin, Tim is 5 and never had a dental. Every check up, vets have said his mouth is in good shape. Last time, the vet looked pretty closely and saw no inflammation in the mouth or gums. But I understand what you are saying about "below the gum line"; perhaps something is developing that was not visible on August 1. Tim is having a cardiac workup on August 18 (diagnosed with mild HCM a year ago) and depending on how that looks, I would like to get dentals on both cats. In any event, if the chin and lip have not resolved by August 18, we'll investigate further.

And Tim continues to do well. We're bumping again tonight and should be at 100% raw dinner by Thursday or Friday, then will begin working on breakfast. Last night, he hung around the kitchen after eating his Rad Cat and wanted more, more, more. I am so glad he is enjoying this!

 

[peaches08]

Sounds like he's adjusting to raw very well!

 

[abbyntim]

Tim continues to do well and we should be at 100% raw dinner by tomorrow or Friday!

Tim's pooping also seems to be okay, considering. We are having work done on the exterior of our house, which involves some pretty loud demolition. Both cats super stressed. Tim (and Abby, to a lesser extent) holds it when stressed. As a preventive, I gave both cats small amounts (1/16 tsp) of Miralax Monday (one dose) and yesterday (two doses). Both cats pooped last night, about 36 hours after their last ones, which is more than I hoped for, given how they both respond to stress. Tim's was a little on the soft side, but definitely formed, so we are tentatively continuing with our bump to 2.5 ounces tonight.

I have a question for the raw experts. Tim got into dry food last night, probably around 8:30 or 9:00. I don't know how much he ate, it could be up to 1/4 cup. This is probably the most dry food he has eaten at one sitting since we transitioned him off a year ago. I know raw and dry don't mix well, so I did not give him the normal 0.5 ounce of raw rabbit this morning. Do you think I can move ahead with bumping our raw tonight? Or do I need to give his system more time to deal with the dry?

I should note I do think the dry was a pretty significant amount because Tim DRANK WATER this morning. We never see our cats drink water. The last time I saw him drink water was February when he was on an asthma medication that really agitated and dehydrated him. Before that, when he was on mostly dry, he practically lived at the water fountain. I see just how dehydrating dry food can be if he was thirsty enough to drink water this morning. In response, for his last two morning plates, I added bone broth and a lot more water so he basically had runny soup. Will do that again tonight. Need him to stay hydrated, so important.

Any thoughts on this are greatly appreciated!

 

[ldg]

There have been people that transitioned directly to raw from kibble, so they overlapped the two. The main issue is that the carbs raise the pH in the system, and the body needs to be acidic to properly digest the raw - but I don't see any reason not to bump it again. While there's a reason not to combine raw and kibble long term, short term I really don't think it's such an issue.