PaleoPet Diet?

[writerhall]

In the past two days only!! I've started switching Cappy to a raw foods diet. This video was recommended to me: 

And I followed the recipe  - the only thing I don't have -yet- is the wheat grass (I need to grow it! I just got the kit from Global Pet Foods.) So far he loves his raw food meal. We're still giving him Purina Pro Plan in the morning until we transition him out of that. I've been giving him grass fed beef hamburger meat as the base, then adding the organic pumpkin, fish oil and small amount of plain yogurt. (I wish I could get raw milk yogurt here, but I can't)  What I like about that recipe is that it's so very simple. What do you all think of it? I'm so new at this I really don't know.

Lin

 

[Willowy]

I don't like to wait for videos to load on my phone so I didn't watch it. . .but from your description it doesn't sound like there's a calcium source? :dk: Besides the small amount of yogurt which I don't think provides enough calcium to balance all the phosphorus in the meat. Plus, I don't think anybody (or any animal) should eat only one thing every day forever. . .variety is important! So if there is a calcium source and it is balanced, I would still only feed it as part of a rotation.

And kittties don't need plant products like pumpkin or wheat grass on a regular basis. Pumpkin can help with constipation and diarrhea, and cats tend to like the taste of wheat grass, but a diet that includes those things daily wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[writerhall]

I would say to watch the video because I didn't mention everything he talks about, and also his reasoning for including things. And his diet does have a lot of variation - salmon and chicken and beef and other raw things, and you can vary them day by day. This is his website: http://www.paleopet.com

 

[writerhall]

Me again and I have lots of questions.  I've been perusing many raw food cat site recipes, and some links here. I guess bone meal is a good addition for calcium? And L-Taurine? I will also get some liver, and freeze it and cut it up small. I have a meat grinder, but I have no desire to make up huge batches of cat food with a grinder. What's wrong with getting it ground up for you? We only eat local grass fed beef and free range chickens and pork, and it's easy for me to buy these in ground form when I go to the market.

Our Cappy is a happy camper - he has always loved raw meat. I have always given him raw meat snacks. 

lin

 

[Willowy]

I watched the videos. That guy is a little loopy! :lol3: He has a lot of good points but some of his assertions I question (I don't think a mouse is 35% fiber. . .). LDG has a study showing the natural diet of feral cats living in a natural area (no garbage or handouts), and I believe it came out to something like 2% fiber, no matter how many mice they ate :tongue2:. Plus he goes on and on about organ meat and then doesn't add any? Odd. And the lack of calcium is just frightening. I would want to know a few cats who have eaten that diet solely for years and see how they're doing. It just doesn't seem complete.

Some bone meals are OK. But bone meal from an older cow tends to have a lot of heavy metals in it. There's a freeze-dried bone meal from calves called MCHA that comes highly recommended. But it's expensive. Powdered eggshell works, too. There's a certain amount you have to add, too much is as bad as too little. LDG has figured out how much of each to add per ounce of meat and per ounce of organ, I'm sure she'll walk you through that if you want.

Adding taurine probably isn't necessary if you're feeding a properly balanced diet but it's such an important nutrient that supplementing is a good idea. And you can't overdose because it's water soluble so they'll just pee out what they don't need.

Pre-ground meat from a grocery store is iffy. You don't know how it's been handled or how long it's been there, and a lot of stores add weird stuff to ground meat (if you buy from a fancy natural store maybe not). If you got it ground right in front of you, maybe. I'm sure lots of people use grocery store ground meats and it's fine, but just be aware of the possibilities. If you have a grinder at home you could buy whole cuts and grind them. . .you don't have to make huge batches.

Have you seen this site yet? www.hare-today.com They sell good stuff!

 

[writerhall]

Thanks for your thoughts. And I agree with you about the grocery store meats. (Here in Canada we've just had a huge grocery store recall of beef for e-coli!) I never buy meat from the grocery store for us, so I wouldn't buy it for my cat. We only buy local organic meat from a farm we know. In a couple of weeks we'll be getting half a grass fed cow for our freezer from that farm.  So, at least we know our meat is clean. We will feed Cappy from that stash. But I think I will look at adding some clean (not from the grocery store) liver as well. (I should be adding it to our diet, as well. I'm just not a great liver fan!)

But some of the cat food recipes look SO confusing.

lin

 

[Willowy]

Basic recipe (if you use bone): 80% muscle meat, 10% edible bone, 10% organ meat, half of that liver and half other secreting organ like kidney or spleen. Grind it up or don't; whatever you and/or your cat prefer. Anything else is just customization . Like if your cat can't/won't eat bone, 90% muscle meat, 10% organ meat, and supplement calcium. If your cat can't/won't eat fresh organ meat, use freeze-dried. If your cat has potty troubles, add a little pumpkin (but I do think making it 1/4 of the diet is too much. . .). Etc.

If you get half a cow, you'll have plenty of liver! I just got some from a co-worker who got half a cow last year but hates liver. He has something like 6 pounds of it .

 

[otto]

I didn't watch the videos, I don't have the patience for watching people talk, but I did read the web page. While I applaud his mission, I did find his comment on fiber very strange. Cats do not need very much fiber at all. I learned that the hard way, when I had a kitty with megacolon. So, while his heart is in the right place, I'm not convinced he understands feline nutrition well enough to be making up and giving out recipes. It's kind of scary that he is, in fact.

His credentials about winning awards from Hills while in vet school, and that he and his colleagues are behind the nutrition taught in vet schools these days do not reassure me because I know that Hills and Purina fund the little bit of nutrition learning vets get in school, and teach prospective vets to feed foods based on "science" rather than nutrition and health.

Further reading in his website confuses the issues even more. Really he makes it sound like he knows what he is talking about, but he seems to contradict himself a lot, and makes unsubstantiated claims that he casually passes off as fact.

Scary.

And of course the bottom line...he's selling something. His book.

 

[auntie crazy]

"Therefore and heretofore I newly ordain the domesticated cat a FACULTATIVE CARNIVORE, not an obligate carnivore.  In fact, there are no clear lines that separate the omnivore from the facultative carnivore - so perhaps a cat would even qualify as a somewhat restrictive omnivore! 

Is this confusing?  If so just take this away from this part:  Cats do not eat 100% meat...they eat whatever their prey eats because they eat their prey whole - stomach, fur or feathers, probiotics and all.  Therefore, cats are not 100% carnivores - they eat the veggies herbs and fiber of their prey!

Dogs are absolutely omnivores by the way.  The modern dog has evolved alongside the omnivorous human for 30 THOUSAND years and has always eaten human leftovers or hand-outs."

This guy is dangerously ill-informed. Looks to me like he's trying to capitalize on the "grain-free" wave without doing any real work in understanding the specialized nutritional needs of carnivores. His level of ignorance and arrogance is downright shocking. *shudder*

Dogs are carnivores. Cats are obligate carnivores. Neither require a diet that contains anything beyond the bodies of their prey animals, and cats shouldn't be eating anything beyond that. I cringe to think of the numbers of people who may be trusting this person with their pet's heath.

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Andrya, your Bretten is a gorgeous kitty! I can't believe someone thought differently, never mind to the point of being offended by him. Some people are just... crazy.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Basic recipe (...): 80% muscle meat, 10% edible bone, 10% organ meat, half of that liver and half other secreting organ like kidney or spleen. ... Anything else is just customization

. ...

This for the win!

AC

 

[writerhall]

I think you guys are a little hard on that Paleopet guy. I liked his sense of humour. I would not call what he says dangerous without reading all of his recipes. The one in the video is only one of many. 

 

[ldg]

I think you guys are a little hard on that Paleopet guy. I liked his sense of humour. I would not call what he says dangerous without reading all of his recipes. The one in the video is only one of many. 

Well, we have to buy the book to read all his recipes, and based on his website, I have no interest in doing that. I prefer science to unsubstantiated statements. :dk:

He says things like, "Every nutritional guide or textbook will tell you that dogs and cats need carbohydrates in their diet....in the form of starch.." Well, that's just not true.

He states, "There is 3% fiber in the average pet food. The natural diet for dogs and cats can be up to 50%! " And that is simply dangerously inaccurate. Plantinga et al. published a study that evaluated diets of feral cats from around the world: "Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats," Br J Nutr. 2011 Oct;106 Suppl 1:S35-48 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434

They had a stringent set of criteria for inclusion in the analysis: length of time of the study, access of cats to human food (had to be less than 5%), the number of data points in the study, etc. They analyzed 27 studies. And they found that on a dry matter basis, the cat naturally eats (on a dry matter basis) a diet that is 62.7% protein, 22.8% fat, 11.8% ash (minerals), 2.8% carbohydrates - well, "NFE," which means Nitrogen-free extract" - e.g. anything that isn't related to protein, fat, or minerals (as they state in the study, "Based on the above calculations, it can be concluded that the NFE content reported in the present study contains little starch and as such is composed of other fibrous material." So the bulk of that 2.8% is fur, etc.). But this means that his claim that cats eat up to 50% fiber is so far out of the ballpark wrong.... without "proof," how can you believe anything else he claims? :dk:

Further, the study indicates, "Twenty-one of the twenty-seven studies reported small amounts of plant material being found in the scats, stomach and gut content of feral cats. Molsher et al.(59) reported that cats frequently consume vegetation (FO of 26·3 %) consisting mostly of a few strands of grass. The authors concluded, however, that plant material is a minor component of the diet of feral cats, as ingestion is likely to occur incidentally
while foraging for invertebrates."

He states, "Therefore, cats are not 100% carnivores - they eat the veggies herbs and fiber of their prey!" OK, well, this is just inaccurate. Because they eat the stomach contents of their prey doesn't make them not carnivores. He may get off on opposing conventional thinking, but that doesn't alter the fact that cats are obligate carnivores. Their entire metabolism is geared for it and specialized to it. That the prey comes with fur and a small amount of predigested grain in its stomach doesn't alter their status as carnivores. And if this guy did any research, or kept current with research, he'd now know that including those stomach contents and that fur, their diet STILL contains on a relative basis essentially no fiber and just 2.8% carbs on a DMB basis.

I think his casual style that is not based in any real science does a disservice to serious raw feeders.

 

[writerhall]

 I apologize for posting the video - I thought it was helpful, but I guess it ignited a firestorm and I really don't understand why. (I thought he was trying for 'fun', like those funny chef guys,)  I've read a whole lot of the raw food meals and recipes mentioned on this site, and I really didn't see that much difference, so could someone tell me -

1. what is wrong with raw ground organic  turkey (NOT from a grocery store, but free range from a farmer's market)?

2. What is wrong with a wild caught salmon patty?

3. What is wrong with wheat grass? (I read about that all over this site.)?

4. What is wrong about a TB of organic pumpkin? (Again, I read about that very thing on a site here)

5. What is wrong with canned, wild herring?

6. What is wrong with a TB of plain organic pro-biotic yogurt? (friend of mine was told to add that to her cat's diet by her vet.)

Just trying to figure everything out. 

lin 

 

[Willowy]

Nothing is wrong with any of those things, in the proper amounts, under the proper circumstances. But he's recommending a daily diet made of only those! Now, you're right that nobody here has read the book so we don't know how balanced those other recipes are, but the recipe he chooses from that book to put on YouTube (I would want my best out there) is dangerously unbalanced. And he doesn't make any disclaimers about not using it as a sole diet or anything. Obviously human chefs don't make disclaimers either, but most humans know not to eat the same thing every day, whereas most pet owners DO feed their pet the same thing every day. So when giving pet food recipes that shouldn't be fed as the sole diet long-term, I'd like for him to say something on the subject.

Don't be sorry about posting it! We like a good discussion, and I always learn a lot from these kinds of threads. And he was entertaining!

 

[ldg]

Actually, without more info, I have to disagree with Willowy on there not being anything wrong with it. The raw salmon is the issue for me - as is the question as re: calcium.

Can you post the actual recipe? Or several of them? I don't have bandwidth to watch videos, and I don't see any recipes up on the site.

But for what's wrong, I see no source of calcium.

I don't know if the salmon patty is a separate recipe, or how often it's recommended to feed it. But the problem with raw fish in a diet is that it has an enzyme (thiaminase) that destroys thiamine, causing thiamine deficiency (thiamine is vitamin B1). It can cause some serious neurological problems, bradycardia, and aggression. http://www.cat-world.com.au/thiamine-deficiency-in-cats

Fish is high in histamines, which can cause allergic reactions, and there are quite a few more reasons not to feed fish from the top of the food chain: http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-fish-is-dangerous-for-cats/

As to the wheat grass, I have no idea, I've never researched it.

A tablespoon of plain yogurt is fine. But it doesn't provide anywhere near enough probiotics to be considered beneficial. Even people would have to eat a heaping amount of yogurt for it to be beneficial: http://www.princetonwellbeing.com/polArticles.cfm?doc_id=5914

The recommended dose for adult cats is 10 billion CFU (colony forming units).

 

[ldg]

Oh, but I do have to agree about not being sorry about posting. We do like a good discussion, and it is always educational! :nod:

 

[writerhall]

What, in yuor opinion would make it more balanced? I want to do the best for my cat. So far, I've used those ingredients, but what should I add? bone meal? liver? Today I'm going to add some gelatin bone broth that I made (with grass fed beef bones) because I know it has lots of minerals and is a natural form of glucosamine-chondroiton.

Plus, I don't really think cats mind eating the same things every day. Or at least my cat doesn't. Up to this point our cat has ONLY eaten Purina Pro-Plan Turkey and Rice dried for indoor cats - aside from raw meat treats - that's all he's eaten. And he loves it!  I tried buying some more expensive dried food from Global Foods once - mixed it in with his Purina, and he ate the Purina and left every single one of the other kibble pieces at the bottom of his bowl. So, variety for health's sake is good, variety for variety's sake? I'm not sure my cat would even notice. 

And - as for humans eating the same things every day? We mostly do. I read somewhere that we all have around 6 food menus that we eat interchangeably every day. 

lin

 

[ldg]

Maybe we were posting at the same time, but could you post the exact recipe you're using? The amounts, etc?

...and as to feeding the same thing day-in, day-out, when it comes to raw, because most of the nutrition is derived from the meat and organs, it's actually pretty important to rotate those protein sources. They have very different amounts of nutrients in them. I provided an example in another thread just recently, I'll go find it.

 

[Willowy]

It's not about whether the cats (or people!) mind eating the same thing every day. But if you (or your cat) eat an unbalanced diet every day for months/years, eventually you're going to end up with deficiencies :dk:. Commercial foods, even with all the shortcomings they have, at least have the proper amounts of vitamins and minerals to (mostly) prevent acute deficiencies. They may cause diseases down the road. . .but if the cat dies of an acute deficiency, it doesn't matter what diseases he didn't get :tongue2:.

I forgot about the raw fish thing! I always think of feeding canned fish and that's cooked, of course. And I think the occasional can of sardines is a good thing. A little canned salmon or tuna as a treat, maybe. Not every day, no. But yeah, raw meat = good, raw fish = not so good .

 

[ldg]

OK, found the post I made in response to someone asking about feeding just chicken (or, in your case, feeding just turkey, assuming you forget about feeding raw fish). It was in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248504/hmmm-wouldnt-touch-his-primal#post_3248132
.

Ideally, you should have 5 or so proteins in rotation. I have 8, I think (I forgot to include goat in the list, though I don't always have it to feed, they like it). They all have SUCH differing nutrients in them, to ensure your kitties are getting what they need, it's pretty essential to include at least three different proteins - and within those proteins, feed different parts of the animal (thigh vs breast; loin, leg, shoulder, chop, etc.).

At some point in the future, when you have time, you can take a look at the differences in the nutritional content of various meats (raw) and their cuts. The USDA database covers just about anything you'd feed: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/list

But for instance, chicken thigh (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05096) vs chicken breast (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05062) vs. your london broil :lol3: (which is a beef shank - I used USDA database #13227, "Beef, shank crosscuts, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, choice, raw).

mg per 100g

Just examples, not the whole profile....

Chicken Thigh

Potassium 245
Sodium 89
Zinc 1.52
Niacin 5.585
B-6 0.445
B-12 (ug) 0.64
Vitamin K (ug) 2.9


Chicken Breast

Potassium 370
Sodium 116
Zinc 0.58
Niacin 10.43
B-6 0.749
B-12 (ug) 0.20
Vitamin K (ug) 0.2


Beef shank

Potassium 387
Sodium 63
Zinc 6.94
Niacin 5.74
B-6 0.47
B-12 (ug) 3.33
Vitamin K (ug) Not available for this


Note: I am NOT providing this info because you need to know what's in everything. It's just an illustration to make the point - it's best to rotate a number of proteins, and a number of different parts of the animals within those proteins - because each provides less or more of different nutrients. Just like you can't live on just melons, you need other fruits and veggies. :nod:

The example provided is just for the difference in chicken thigh vs chicken breast vs beef shank. But each protein AND each part of that protein have very different nutrient profiles. :nod: In the wild, cats don't eat only mice or rabbits or whatever. They may eat mostly mice, but they don't eat only mice.

 

[writerhall]

All of these postings have made me realize how inadequate I am. How I know nothing. How, I need to learn before I even attempt to start this. I should never have posted that video, because obviously the guy's a jerk and I didn't realize it. I'm going back to Purina Pro plan Cappy does well on it, loves it, and like one of you said - it has all the nutrients that he needs in the right balance.