Overwhelmed! Please Help Me and My Constipated, Rotten-Toothed Cat

[sirentist]

 
Yes, most cats won't just eat it immediately! Our vet suggested we use the methodology in this video (link here) and it worked well for us. (We even took some of the phases quickly because the cats were so interested in the brush and toothpaste.) Good luck!

Thank you for the link. I did go to check it out but it looks like it costs $22 to view it, so I'm going to hold off on viewing until I feel a bit more desperate. I think I have the general idea ... let her chew on the brush without toothpaste, get her familiar with my messing with her mouth, slowly start doing a little brushing, then add the toothpaste? The toothbrush hasn't arrived yet, and I had a (very faint) hope that if I just put some on my finger she would lick it right up, but oh well.

Before I gave up on the dental wipes, I did have a routine with her before breakfast, when she's hungriest, of rubbing at her teeth a little with my finger, and she did tolerate that. So I'm thinking that might be another way to introduce the toothpaste. I'll be experimenting tomorrow morning! I feel a bit like a mad scientist. Mwahahaha...

 

[piano cat]

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/320775/making-my-own-slippery-elm-bark-syrup-with-chicken-stock

I'm trying Slippery Elm Bark for constipation in case you'd like to look into it.  We have just barely started so no reports on how it works for us.

 

[lisahe]

 
Thank you for the link. I did go to check it out but it looks like it costs $22 to view it, so I'm going to hold off on viewing until I feel a bit more desperate. I think I have the general idea ... let her chew on the brush without toothpaste, get her familiar with my messing with her mouth, slowly start doing a little brushing, then add the toothpaste? The toothbrush hasn't arrived yet, and I had a (very faint) hope that if I just put some on my finger she would lick it right up, but oh well.

Before I gave up on the dental wipes, I did have a routine with her before breakfast, when she's hungriest, of rubbing at her teeth a little with my finger, and she did tolerate that. So I'm thinking that might be another way to introduce the toothpaste. I'll be experimenting tomorrow morning! I feel a bit like a mad scientist. Mwahahaha...

Here's a free version. (link here) Odd about that other link: I'm pretty sure there used to be free video on that page. As for brushes, our cats prefer the little cat-sized toothbrushes. Our vet says finger brushes are very popular but both our cats hate it. As do I!

A lot of cat-related activities make me feel like a mad scientist, too.

 

[sirentist]

I feel like an idiot but I can't figure out where to click to view anything. That link seems to go to the same place as the other link. On the new link, I can't even get back to the course home page. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, lol!

Edited to add:

The individual segments do turn highlighted green when I mouse over them, but clicking them has no effect. Very odd!

 

[lisahe]

 
I feel like an idiot but I can't figure out where to click to view anything. That link seems to go to the same place as the other link. On the new link, I can't even get back to the course home page. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, lol!

Edited to add:

The individual segments do turn highlighted green when I mouse over them, but clicking them has no effect. Very odd!

No, I'm the idiot: I didn't check the links. (Honestly, it didn't even occur to me to check them because the page said the thing was free and the color changed when I moused over the links, too. Is there big money to be made in teaching people to brush cats' teeth!? Definitely very odd.)

But here's another page, from a vet clinic. (link here!) This time I checked it. It worked!

 

[sirentist]

Oh, thank goodness we can be idiots together! I hate it when I'm the one lonesome idiot.

I watched the video, and it actually looks like something I might be able to manage with Isabel. Yay! Although you *know* they picked the most docile cat on the planet to demonstrate on, pfft.

Still, I have hope! Thanks for the link.

My Hare Today order should arrive today. I can't wait to see how Is reacts to the rabbit. I've never been so excited to receive a box of pulverized bunny in my life! Okay ... that sounds all kinds of wrong.

 

[lisahe]

 
Oh, thank goodness we can be idiots together! I hate it when I'm the one lonesome idiot.

I watched the video, and it actually looks like something I might be able to manage with Isabel. Yay! Although you *know* they picked the most docile cat on the planet to demonstrate on, pfft.

Cat-loving idiots, at that! I hope you can figure out a good method for Isabel. Our cats aren't docile, either, not at all, but they just love CET toothpastes. (And if one flavor fails you, you can try another... our two have firm favorites. Cats!)

One other thing about the dental issues: our cats both had more tartar and gingivitis than they should have at the tender of two so our vet tested them for the Bartonella bacterium, which she says can often cause mouth problems. Both cats tested positive, went through a course of antibiotics, and then "passed" their titre tests, showing the antibiotics have worked. We don't know for sure if it's the treatment for Bartonella or daily toothbrushing that's helped but their mouths do look better. Edwina and Ireland are also predisposed to dental problems because they're Siamese mixes but our vet says she very often sees dental improvements in cats she treats for Bartonella. The Bartonella theory isn't universally accepted and the testing isn't super-cheap (though it's cheaper than dental cleanings) but I really trust our vet, who's a cat specialist. Here's a piece (it's here, no fee!) about Bartonella that mentions mouth infections, among other ills.

 

[sirentist]

Huh, interesting article. I've never heard of Bartonella before. I'll ask my vet about it. In general she can be sort of, well, dismissive, or perhaps just impatient, with me when I say, "What about this thing I heard online?" but I ain't scared of her. Much...

Isabel's always been an indoor cat, with no exposure to any outdoor animals except my mom's dog, when they come to visit (or like right now because I'm dog-sitting), so I don't know how she would contract it unless she's just always had it. (Fleas are not an issue.)

I've noticed that the times Isabel has scratched me, the scratch very quickly swells up and gets super itchy. I've been scratched by lots of cats over the years and she's the only one my skin reacts to this way. A few swipes with rubbing alcohol always seems to fix it. I'm sure it's completely unrelated but the thing about flea dirt under claws did make me flash to it.

I have no idea what Isabel's lineage is, other than generalized tabby-ish, as I adopted her from the Brewster Animal Rescue League, but the vet keeps saying she just has a genetic predisposition to dental disease, so who knows. It will be interesting to hear her thoughts on the Bartonella thing. Thanks for the info!

I'll be trying again today to see if she'll take any interest in the CET toothpaste. I got the poultry version. Maybe if I leave a little blob lying around for her and she discovers it herself, she'll be more likely to check it out. I might also try the "oops, I dropped it while I was making dinner" trick. I once accidentally dropped a little piece of romaine lettuce and she gobbled it right up. Weirdo.

 

[kskatt]

 
Huh, interesting article. I've never heard of Bartonella before. I'll ask my vet about it. In general she can be sort of, well, dismissive, or perhaps just impatient, with me when I say, "What about this thing I heard online?" but I ain't scared of her. Much...

I've noticed that the times Isabel has scratched me, the scratch very quickly swells up and gets super itchy. I've been scratched by lots of cats over the years and she's the only one my skin reacts to this way. A few swipes with rubbing alcohol always seems to fix it. I'm sure it's completely unrelated but the thing about flea dirt under claws did make me flash to it.

I have no idea what Isabel's lineage is, other than generalized tabby-ish, as I adopted her from the Brewster Animal Rescue League, but the vet keeps saying she just has a genetic predisposition to dental disease, so who knows. It will be interesting to hear her thoughts on the Bartonella thing. Thanks for the info!

OK, I skimmed so I probably missed a lot, but I feel a strong need to advise you get a second opinion, or better yet, a better vet. Great recommendations come from local shelters and rescues. You are asking legitimate questions and being blown off. I have been told to ask questions even if it's "just" a gut feeling. You know your cat, and your instincts need to be respected. My vet loves the fact that I won't hesitate to ask questions. Vets are professionals that we pay to provide a service, this is not a friend doing you a favor.

It jumped out at me when you said she (vet) would scrape tooth and gum would bleed. There should have been a cleaning done. Yes, antibiotics to eliminate infection first, don't want to spread bacteria around, but a cleaning was, definitely called for.  I, honestly, do not believe this vet is giving your cat the best treatment. Please check around!

 

[kittens mom]

 
OK, I skimmed so I probably missed a lot, but I feel a strong need to advise you get a second opinion, or better yet, a better vet. Great recommendations come from local shelters and rescues. You are asking legitimate questions and being blown off. I have been told to ask questions even if it's "just" a gut feeling. You know your cat, and your instincts need to be respected. My vet loves the fact that I won't hesitate to ask questions. Vets are professionals that we pay to provide a service, this is not a friend doing you a favor.

It jumped out at me when you said she (vet) would scrape tooth and gum would bleed. There should have been a cleaning done. Yes, antibiotics to eliminate infection first, don't want to spread bacteria around, but a cleaning was, definitely called for.  I, honestly, do not believe this vet is giving your cat the best treatment. Please check around!

That scraping the teeth with a fingernail was like fingernails on a chalkboard to my mine. It's the stuff under the gum line that has allowed dental disease to progress. And to scrape with a fingernail means any bacteria on her hand, under her nails is not in your cats bleeding mouth. Because we all know you can't be gloved and scrape with your fingernail.

 

[sirentist]

 
OK, I skimmed so I probably missed a lot, but I feel a strong need to advise you get a second opinion, or better yet, a better vet. Great recommendations come from local shelters and rescues. You are asking legitimate questions and being blown off. I have been told to ask questions even if it's "just" a gut feeling. You know your cat, and your instincts need to be respected. My vet loves the fact that I won't hesitate to ask questions. Vets are professionals that we pay to provide a service, this is not a friend doing you a favor.

It jumped out at me when you said she (vet) would scrape tooth and gum would bleed. There should have been a cleaning done. Yes, antibiotics to eliminate infection first, don't want to spread bacteria around, but a cleaning was, definitely called for.  I, honestly, do not believe this vet is giving your cat the best treatment. Please check around!

 
That scraping the teeth with a fingernail was like fingernails on a chalkboard to my mine. It's the stuff under the gum line that has allowed dental disease to progress. And to scrape with a fingernail means any bacteria on her hand, under her nails is not in your cats bleeding mouth. Because we all know you can't be gloved and scrape with your fingernail.

Thank you both for your thoughts. I'll keep them in mind as I navigate this kitty health care process! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thought the tartar-scraping thing was kinda weird.

In other news, I'm now tricking Isabel into accepting the new taste/smell of the toothpaste by smearing a little bit onto the chicken chunks that she loves so much. I know it's not going to do any good to give her the toothpaste literally on top of the food, ha, but I think she's a bit of a neophobe (is that the right word? fear of new things?), so I'm trying to think outside the box here and get her used to the smell a little. If I can get her past the "Human, are you trying to poison me?" phase, then I can actually start on the steps for introducing the tooth-brushing concept properly.

I've been sort of listening around on and off all day in the front downstairs part of the house, which is the only place I can hear a knock on the front door from. Come on, rabbit bits! Arrive already!

Maybe I should consider installing a doorbell. Hmph.

 

[kittens mom]

There are very few cats if any that can sit wide awake for a full dental. If the vet can flake it off the tooth you can brush it off. For the record and my opinion only I probably wouldn't hire this vet to do a dental under anesthesia on my cat. If she had the skills she would have suggested you do that already. Even if she has the skills to do a decent job she has shown poor judgment using her fingernails as a tool in your cats mouth.

http://avdc.org/AFD/what-is-an-anesthesia-free-dental-cleaning/     This explains why the vets technique is faulty. Veterinary and Human oral hygiene are both carried out under the same antiseptic conditions. If you dentist reached into your mouth with a bare hand and started scraping at a tooth you would be appalled.

It's painfully obvious you are trying to provide your pet with excellent care. That vet needs her hand slapped.

 

[sirentist]

There are very few cats if any that can sit wide awake for a full dental. If the vet can flake it off the tooth you can brush it off. For the record and my opinion only I probably wouldn't hire this vet to do a dental under anesthesia on my cat. If she had the skills she would have suggested you do that already. Even if she has the skills to do a decent job she has shown poor judgment using her fingernails as a tool in your cats mouth.

http://avdc.org/AFD/what-is-an-anesthesia-free-dental-cleaning/    This explains why the vets technique is faulty. Veterinary and Human oral hygiene are both carried out under the same antiseptic conditions. If you dentist reached into your mouth with a bare hand and started scraping at a tooth you would be appalled.

It's painfully obvious you are trying to provide your pet with excellent care. That vet needs her hand slapped.

Oh, she didn't do the dental cleaning herself. She referred me to a dental specialist a few towns over. In her defense, she knew I was a little nervous to have Isabel in for a cleaning after a dear friend of mine went through a horrible ordeal with her cat (who ultimately died of complications resulting from dental surgery). Before the switch in foods, Isabel's mouth wasn't great, but since the tartar was able to be so easily chipped off, and her teeth still looked fairly sound, the vet said it was only on the borderline of warranting going in for a cleaning. After the food switch, we were trying the dental wipes as things got worse, and this last visit, she said it had gone far enough and was time for an official evaluation/cleaning. While I might find her to not have the best people skills, I do trust that when push comes to shove, she'll always be firmly behind whatever she thinks is best for my cat, and that if something she can't manage comes up, she'll have no qualms about referring me to people who can.

In any event, I have high hopes that a change in diet and the introduction of tooth-brushing (or if not, at least the enzymatic toothpaste) will help Isabel to regain her toothy equilibrium!

 

[kittens mom]

 
I thought I was a savvy raw-food feeder, after nearly 10 years of having my 11-year-old cat, Isabel, on a totally raw food diet. For most of that time, I was feeding Feline's Pride (chicken), mixed with raw chicken breast chunks at about a 1:1 ratio. But when I stopped being able get my orders filled at Feline's Pride, I switched over to Bravo (and chicken chunks) because I can get it from a local pet store.

Isabel always seemed to do pretty well on the Feline's Pride diet, which seemed to totally clear up her cystitis issues. She did, however, have ongoing, but relatively minor, problems with dental stuff and constipation. My vet prescribed lactulose (which I give every other day [about 3cc]), and dental wipes (which Isabel and I have a difference of opinion over). She also suggested adding water to her food to help with the constipation. I can't remember if the lactulose only became necessary after I switched to Bravo, but I do know I've only gone through less than two bottles total, and in retrospect I think it might coincide with the switch.

Isabel was getting tartar even while on the Feline's Pride (which is totally carb-free), and my vet said it was just a matter of genetics. I worried that because it was all just either ground food or boneless chicken chunks, there wasn't anything scraping on Isabel's teeth, but whenever I brought it up, she sort of acted like tooth problems were just a normal part of cat life. I asked her again and again if I should be trying to get Isabel to eat, say, chicken wings (for the bones), or some sort of tooth-cleaning treat, but she kept telling me it wouldn't make a difference.

Up until a couple weeks ago, my vet would come for Isabel's yearly physical and use her fingernail to chip off the tartar. Isabel's gums would bleed in response and the vet would give her a shot of antibiotics and steroids. But over the past couple years Isabel's teeth have definitely gotten worse, to the point where we moved to 6-month checkups. Her last visit, three weeks ago, my vet said it was time for an official teeth cleaning. So two weeks ago Isabel went in for that -- they removed two teeth from her upper jaw, both "premolar 3," one due to being fractured and the other because it had a "cervical neck lesion." In addition to the tooth stuff, her constipation issues seem to be getting worse, too. My vet also recommended that I start giving Isabel the lactulose on a daily basis.

I try to be an attentive cat owner, but I have to say it's only been since this teeth cleaning, seeing how utterly miserable Isabel was afterwards, that I decided to get online and see if maybe there was something I could do diet-wise to help prevent the problem. Now I feel completely overwhelmed with info about bone vs. no bone, ground vs. whole, carbohydrate percentages, pre-mixed supplements, stuff that's good for teeth vs. stuff that's good for digestion, varying the meat types ... the list goes on. I had no idea Bravo had carbs in it, and that carbs could be contributing to her tooth problems. I feel like for the past two years I've been giving her the wrong food, and two weeks ago she had to pay for my ignorance with two of her teeth and a lot of pain and suffering. Not only that, I've been studiously adding water to every meal, which, lo and behold, is apparently the exact wrong thing to do with a constipation-prone cat!

I want to do the best thing for her teeth while still paying attention to the constipation thing (because although it's not common that she has a real "bout," when she does, it makes her pretty miserable, too). I believe there's a raw diet out there for her that will fulfill all her needs without the use of added medications like lactulose. It doesn't make sense to me to be giving her meds just because I haven't learned how to feed her properly. My vet is useless in this area (although I do trust her in general), so here I am.

I'm willing to mix up batches from pre-ground stuff, but I don't have the equipment for doing the grinding myself, and I'd prefer to not do that anyhow. Nobody nearby sells Rad Cat (which seems to be the only other carb-free frozen stuff besides Feline's Pride), and when I went online to order some, the shipping, packaging, and extra charges for frozen food added up to 80 bucks for an 18-dollar order! Shipping alone was 47 dollars. Don't get me wrong -- I'm willing to pay this if it really is the best thing for her, but I did more research and it seems like maybe it makes more sense for me to go the less pre-packaged route, which will allow me to tailor her food to her specific needs.

I want to try ordering from Hare Today, but I'm confused about what to shoot for. I'm thinking that rabbit might be the way to go at first? But I don't know whether to order the stuff with bone in it, or the boneless stuff, or both, and give her a mix. From what I understand the bone stuff can make constipation worse, but is better for teeth. I also understand it might be important to get the most digestible stuff and mix it in so Isabel is simply eating more, which will automatically help with the constipation. I know I also need to get the pre-mixed supplement, but I'm unclear about the essential oils thing. Isabel once caught and ate a mouse that had gotten into the house, so I'm also wondering if maybe the whole ground rabbit, with the fur and bones, would make sense, since I know she's not averse to skin and fur and all that, but I don't know what that would mean in terms of the constipation.

I live in a rural area and there are tons of mice around and honestly, if I thought it would be safe for her, I'd be happy to go out and trap mice for her -- even to the point of doing the butchering myself, ha! However, the mice are so prevalent that I have a contract with a pest control company and I'd worry about them being contaminated by having eaten some of the poison. Never mind tapeworms, ticks, diseases, and such.

Anyhow, so yeah. I really just want to do the best thing for my cat. I take this cat-guardian thing very seriously and am totally committed to making sure she has what she needs. I'm not squeamish, although as I said, I'd prefer to not have to grind the meat. I'm not averse to putting in the time it takes to mix up batches of her meals. I think I just need some guidance.

Am I overthinking this? Does anyone else use Hare Today, and if so, do you have any suggestions on how to get started? Does anyone have experience with adjusting a raw diet for a rotten-toothed, constipated cat? I'm hoping for some direction on what, exactly, to order. I'm pretty sure I can transition Isabel from chicken to rabbit, but will that mess with her system since she's basically only ever eaten chicken her entire life? Should I order a bunch of different types of meat to start? (I did once try to introduce turkey Feline's Pride and Isabel rejected it out-of-hand and was convinced for like a week that I was trying to kill her.) I have only a regular freezer (as part of the fridge) right now, but plan on getting a separate one just for cat food once I figure out what the heck I'm doing.

Any thoughts or advice?

Apologies for the length of this post, and thanks in advance for your replies.

I don't know if it was mentioned about the constipation. Many of use pumpkin. Plain canned no spice to regulate our cats systems when they have constipation. Which is btw what my own high priced vet suggested for one of my cats.

 

[sirentist]

I don't know if it was mentioned about the constipation. Many of use pumpkin. Plain canned no spice to regulate our cats systems when they have constipation. Which is btw what my own high priced vet suggested for one of my cats.

I did try pumpkin, and of course Isabel thought I was once again trying to kill her. I so wanted to go the "natural" route rather than giving her the lactulose. But there came a point when her refusal to eat, plus how miserable she was when trying to poop, plus a pretty spectacular compacted anal sac event, all combined to win out over my reservations. She seems to be doing okay on the lactulose for the time being, and I'm really hoping that the calcium-enriched stuff rather than the bone-ground stuff, along with some changes in the way I feed her to begin with, will make it possible to wean her off the lactulose altogether.

 

[lisahe]

I've had, many years ago, cat scratch fever from my indoor cat who had good teeth!!! Explain that.

Playing on what @Kittens Mom said, I'd also say your cat was lucky! Apparently a huge percentage of cats have the Bartonella bacterium but most don't have any symptoms of inflammatory diseases. When an old friend from high school mentioned on Facebook that she'd gotten cat scratch fever, I couldn't believe how many people commented that they'd gotten it, too, or known someone who'd gotten it!

 
Huh, interesting article. I've never heard of Bartonella before. I'll ask my vet about it. In general she can be sort of, well, dismissive, or perhaps just impatient, with me when I say, "What about this thing I heard online?" but I ain't scared of her. Much...

Isabel's always been an indoor cat, with no exposure to any outdoor animals except my mom's dog, when they come to visit (or like right now because I'm dog-sitting), so I don't know how she would contract it unless she's just always had it. (Fleas are not an issue.)

I've noticed that the times Isabel has scratched me, the scratch very quickly swells up and gets super itchy. I've been scratched by lots of cats over the years and she's the only one my skin reacts to this way. A few swipes with rubbing alcohol always seems to fix it. I'm sure it's completely unrelated but the thing about flea dirt under claws did make me flash to it.

I have no idea what Isabel's lineage is, other than generalized tabby-ish, as I adopted her from the Brewster Animal Rescue League, but the vet keeps saying she just has a genetic predisposition to dental disease, so who knows. It will be interesting to hear her thoughts on the Bartonella thing. Thanks for the info!

I'll be trying again today to see if she'll take any interest in the CET toothpaste. I got the poultry version. Maybe if I leave a little blob lying around for her and she discovers it herself, she'll be more likely to check it out. I might also try the "oops, I dropped it while I was making dinner" trick. I once accidentally dropped a little piece of romaine lettuce and she gobbled it right up. Weirdo.

I know what you mean about dismissive vets: we had one for our previous cat and it was sometimes rather unpleasant. We started our new cats on a new vet and she's great.

We have no idea how our cats got Bartonella, either: we also adopted them from a shelter and don't know what their previous life had been. (Well, other than that it had been bad: they were totally underfed when we brought them home.)

It's funny, too, that you mention the scratches swelling: scratches from one of our cats are very itchy and puffy for me but the other's aren't. (I know that for certain because today I dropped a very heavy book when she was on my lap and I have some mondo scratches because she jumped so fast and high and far...)

Did the rabbit meat arrive?

And now I really am off to brush the cats' teeth!

 

[sirentist]

The rabbit meat did not arrive! I'm so bummed. I got a notification from FedEx that they were unable to deliver it because ... wait for it ... they did not make the attempt to deliver it. What the heck! It says they'll deliver it tomorrow. So glad I ordered those 5 extra ice packs.

Earlier tonight Isabel spent a little time getting to know the toothbrush -- no toothpaste, just nosing at it and letting me rub at her face and around her mouth with it. Yay!

 

[lisahe]

The rabbit meat did not arrive! I'm so bummed. I got a notification from FedEx that they were unable to deliver it because ... wait for it ... they did not make the attempt to deliver it. What the heck! It says they'll deliver it tomorrow. So glad I ordered those 5 extra ice packs.

Earlier tonight Isabel spent a little time getting to know the toothbrush -- no toothpaste, just nosing at it and letting me rub at her face and around her mouth with it. Yay!

I had the same thing happen with a FedEx delivery from Chewy last week. It was supposed to be delivered one day but then, nope.

I'm glad Isabel liked meeting the toothbrush. Our cats had so much fun chewing on theirs from the start that it was easy to get them into brushing.

 

[sirentist]

Progress! Last night Isabel realized that poultry toothpaste is yummy. She's now licking it off my finger like a champ. Good kitty. Next step is to get her to start licking it off the brush. Yay, us!

Still awaiting my raw food delivery. Luckily it's been cooler the past couple days, so hopefully an extra 24 hours sitting around won't result in it being spoiled. Fingers crossed!

 

[abby2932]

Still awaiting my raw food delivery. Luckily it's been cooler the past couple days, so hopefully an extra 24 hours sitting around won't result in it being spoiled. Fingers crossed!

It will be fine. Even if it's not still frozen, as long as the food is cold, you can still make your batch, portion it up and refreeze anything you won't immediately use in the next couple days