our poop issues never seem to end

[abbyntim]

Many of you know I've been here for the past couple of months, chronicling Tim's journey to get off cisapride. He was put on this medication last June after a terrible constipation episode. My husband and I believe the constipation was due to diet - he ate primarily kibble - and we have since transitioned him to all canned. We are doing a few other things under the guidance of a holistic veterinarian. We'll be adding home-cooked and possibly raw in the future. As we gradually taper Tim's doses of cispride, I obsessively track his bowel habits. I never thought I'd be so excited about cat poop.

Meanwhile, my girl Abby seems to have occasional hard poops that we're trying to resolve. Last night, I thought I brought on diarrhea by giving her tiny amounts of psyllium and miralax too close together. Maybe not ...

Abby's a little better today, but still has diarrhea and now so does Tim! His seems exactly the same- sound it made coming out, smell, texture, color ... (I worked at home today, litter boxes are in the home office, I got to enjoy all the action). So now I'm not so sure my "constipation cocktail" worked too well on Abby and I'm concerned.

Before I go any further, I've had two telephone conversations with the veterinarian's office and we have an appointment for tomorrow morning. I've collected, bagged, and labeled fecal samples from both cats. I dug the cat food cans out of the recycling container and labeled with date and time consumed. I pulled the cans with the same lot numbers and put those plus the empties in a bag. Anything else I should take/discuss tomorrow?

Despite multiple trips to the litter box, and even Abby upchucking a bit of stomach acid, both cats wanted dinner. They didn't eat as much as normal, but maybe their tummies don't feel good. I wanted to feed them something somewhat bland, so I fed them a mix of cooked ground turkey with Balance IT supplement and cooked shredded turkey breast. I added quite a bit of warmed, filtered water for moisture. I am obviously worried about them being sufficiently hydrated with all this liquid poo. Does this seem okay? I plan to feed the same thing tomorrow morning to reduce stress on their tummies. So far, I've only given them about 1/3 of what they would normally eat, so if regular cat food would be better, it's not too late.

Any other suggestions for getting them through tonight, somewhat fed and hydrated? Any ideas what this could be??

Thanks,

 

[raintyger]

Miralax can cause diarrhea, but since both of them have it, I'm leaning more towards food or environment.

Pull on their scruff fur and see how fast it goes back to see if they're hydrated. Fortunately with adult kitties (vs. kittens) you have a little more stability. When I had kittens with diarrhea the vet said to give them Pedialyte. Pedialyte does have sugar in it, though.

 

[vball91]

Given that they both seem to have diarrhea, I would look for commonalities. Do they eat the same food all the time? Was anything new introduced?

I think you're doing the right thing with the bland food and extra water.

 

[abbyntim]

 
Miralax can cause diarrhea, but since both of them have it, I'm leaning more towards food or environment.

Pull on their scruff fur and see how fast it goes back to see if they're hydrated. Fortunately with adult kitties (vs. kittens) you have a little more stability. When I had kittens with diarrhea the vet said to give them Pedialyte. Pedialyte does have sugar in it, though.

Yeah, last night I thought Abby's diarrhea was due to miralax, now I'm not so sure. I've been checking Abby's scruff throughout the day, since she started this last night, and so far, so good. I've been adding a lot of extra fluid to her food to keep her hydrated, mostly homemade turkey broth to tempt her. Both cats are relaxing now and when they start moving around, I will check scruff again. Fluids for sure at our vet visit tomorrow.

Given that they both seem to have diarrhea, I would look for commonalities. Do they eat the same food all the time? Was anything new introduced?

I think you're doing the right thing with the bland food and extra water.

They eat the same thing and I'm a little suspicious of food. They eat Nature's Variety Instinct LID turkey and rabbit (not LID). They also eat a bit of cooked turkey breast in the morning with their LID turkey - 1/2 ounce split between both cats. On Sunday, I introduced the ground turkey breast meat cooked with 1/2 portion of Balance IT supplement. I've been giving them a small bit of that each evening as a snack, again 1/2 ounce split between both cats.

What is weird is that Tim's came on almost exactly 24 hours after Abby's. Tim had cisapride this morning after skipping three days, though it's never done this to him before.

 

[abbyntim]

Poor Tim's having a really rough time tonight. He's definitely more uncomfortable than Abby tonight, and possibly more than she was last night. He's been to the litter box five times since 2:30 this afternoon and just vomited everything I fed him. Wonder if the ground turkey with Balance IT doesn't agree with him? That's the only new thing we've added recently and he ate much more of it earlier this evening than Abby and he seems much more uncomfortable. Will feed just the plain shredded turkey breast with broth if he wants food tonight and tomorrow morning.

 

[goholistic]

Did you introduce the ground turkey with Balance It slowly? Like a very small amount for several days and gradually increasing? It's new. It's different. It's not impossible for it to cause GI upset if they ate a large amount of it right off the bat, especially for kitties who already have haywire systems.

I always err on the side of caution with Sebastian (who is my major GI challenge) and always introduce everything slowly, no matter what it is. I'm changing his food entirely every three weeks. As long as I move slowly from one rotation into the next, there are no issues.

Do you, by any chance, have Bach's Rescue Remedy for Pets (the alcohol-free version)? You could give Tim a few drops to help relax him through the night.

 

[abbyntim]

 
Did you introduce the ground turkey with Balance It slowly? Like a very small amount for several days and gradually increasing? It's new. It's different. It's not impossible for it to cause GI upset if they ate a large amount of it right off the bat, especially for kitties who already have haywire systems.

I always err on the side of caution with Sebastian (who is my major GI challenge) and always introduce everything slowly, no matter what it is. I'm changing his food entirely every three weeks. As long as I move slowly from one rotation into the next, there are no issues.

Do you, by any chance, have Bach's Rescue Remedy for Pets (the alcohol-free version)? You could give Tim a few drops to help relax him through the night.

I did, we started with .5 ounce split between both cats Sunday night and they've had slightly more each night ever since. Tonight, Tim had about .5 ounce of that mixed with .5 ounce plain shredded turkey breast. Abby wasn't interested in that mix, but later ate plain shredded turkey breast. I've considered that I may have given him too much tonight, despite the gradual increases since Sunday. He seems to be so much more sensitive than he used to be! Prior to all of this, we primarily fed Wellness grain-free canned, but supplemented with a variety of brands and flavors without any trouble. Those days are over, I think.

We don't have Bach Rescue Remedy. Funny, I saw that in the store last night and almost bought some. Now I wish I had. But right now Tim seems to be resting peacefully, thankfully he's stopped the pacing and litter box visits. I am very sad that he had to vomit, but it seems he got out whatever was bothering him. Abby is hanging in there, hasn't had a problem since 4:30 this afternoon. We'll see how she does overnight.

No more food for either cat tonight. I checked their scruffs a while ago and both are sufficiently hydrated. Both have eaten enough over the past 24 hours. True, Tim vomited up everything he ate this evening, but he eats well and had plenty of food this morning. Hopefully I can get him to eat some plain turkey tomorrow morning and keep it down. Abby has not vomited food and she ate pretty well this evening. I'm not happy about the diarrhea and now the vomiting, but I don't think either cat is in immediate danger. Thankfully, our vet appointment is in the morning.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Yeah, last night I thought Abby's diarrhea was due to miralax, now I'm not so sure. I've been checking Abby's scruff throughout the day, since she started this last night, and so far, so good. I've been adding a lot of extra fluid to her food to keep her hydrated, mostly homemade turkey broth to tempt her. Both cats are relaxing now and when they start moving around, I will check scruff again. Fluids for sure at our vet visit tomorrow.

They eat the same thing and I'm a little suspicious of food. They eat Nature's Variety Instinct LID turkey and rabbit (not LID). They also eat a bit of cooked turkey breast in the morning with their LID turkey - 1/2 ounce split between both cats. On Sunday, I introduced the ground turkey breast meat cooked with 1/2 portion of Balance IT supplement. I've been giving them a small bit of that each evening as a snack, again 1/2 ounce split between both cats.

What is weird is that Tim's came on almost exactly 24 hours after Abby's. Tim had cisapride this morning after skipping three days, though it's never done this to him before.

I would say that the common denominator is the new bit of food/supplement that you have introduced. Was this raw or cooked turkey breast? Perhaps the new food or Balance IT isn't agreeing with them

The other consideration is the diarrhea could be a stress reaction from the change in food or changes in general. This is not a criticism of you or your wish to do better for your cats, but a concern that the concentrated effort you are making, coupled with worrying about BMs and whether they are happening quick enough as the result of the  transition in process from cisapride, to trying to introduce things to get Abby's stools to be softer. All of this concentrated effort and attention may be causing you and in turn, your kitties, to feel stressed. Cats are very intuitive and sensitive to our moods, especially when we are worried and upset. If you are worried, and you seem to be often, believe me, your cats are picking up on this. My advice would be to take a step back and take some time out for yourself. And perhaps stop the new food and Balance IT and see if this might be the culprit.

 

[peaches08]

Do they get psyllium regularly?  Miralax?

 

[abbyntim]

 
I would say that the common denominator is the new bit of food/supplement that you have introduced. Was this raw or cooked turkey breast? Perhaps the new food or Balance IT isn't agreeing with them

The other consideration is the diarrhea could be a stress reaction from the change in food or changes in general. This is not a criticism of you or your wish to do better for your cats, but a concern that the concentrated effort you are making, coupled with worrying about BMs and whether they are happening quick enough as the result of the  transition in process from cisapride, to trying to introduce things to get Abby's stools to be softer. All of this concentrated effort and attention may be causing you and in turn, your kitties, to feel stressed. Cats are very intuitive and sensitive to our moods, especially when we are worried and upset. If you are worried, and you seem to be often, believe me, your cats are picking up on this. My advice would be to take a step back and take some time out for yourself. And perhaps stop the new food and Balance IT and see if this might be the culprit.

The turkey breast was cooked. We've considered the Balance IT could be the culprit, or perhaps too much last night after a gradual introduction since Sunday evening. But because Abby refused it altogether, I decided to stop until we get this under control and can try an even more gradual introduction. And get Tim off cisapride. I had been trying to minimize other changes during this process and thought the addition of a small amount of supplemented home-cooked food would help. Maybe not.

I agree with everything you say in your second paragraph and, believe me, have often thought the same. I am pretty anxious and worried; this process of getting Tim off cisapride is much more stressful to me than I thought it would be. I also agree the cats can pick up my worry. I've seen them exhibit some behavioral things on occasion and when I modify my behavior, their behavioral quirks resolve. We are all a lot happier when I am less involved and I'm trying very hard to strike a balance of being aware but not hovering. I think I've made progress with this (I used to follow Tim to the litter box but stopped that quite some time ago), but need to do more.

 
Do they get psyllium regularly?  Miralax?

Under the direction of our holistic veterinarian, Tim has been getting psyllium for about two weeks. We started with 1/8 tsp, but dropped to 1/16 tsp, which is where he's been. Abby has been getting a tiny amount regularly for almost as long. I originally thought part of the problem was I bumped her quantity, but still less than 1/16 tsp, then gave her Miralax about 12 hours later. She has had Miralax before: three days in a row, 1/16 tsp once per day. I gave her the same dose two mornings ago, though it might have been a bit closer to 1/8 tsp, as my smallest measuring spoon is 1/4 and I have to estimate (will be buying a smaller measuring spoon).

Tim attempted to vomit at least twice last night that we heard; nothing in his stomach, though, so only a tiny amount of stomach acid came out. Otherwise he rested well on the foot of our bed until early this morning when he did his normal early-morning observation out our bedroom window. He was hungry, so I fed him 1/8 can of NVI LID turkey - I tried the plain shredded turkey, but he refused that. Abby seems a little more chipper this morning, though her full appetite hasn't returned and I'm not pushing it. She refused the plain shredded turkey, refused the canned cat food, but ate most of her portion when I added a bit of shredded turkey to the canned cat food. There was some stuff in the litter boxes, at least one runny stool; I have no idea who it came from. And a couple of clumps that were hard to tell if urine or stool. We will be leaving for the veterinarian's office in just under two hours. Hopefully Tim keeps his food down. I may give him a little bit more, but definitely don't want to fill up his tummy.

 

[raintyger]

 
I agree with everything you say in your second paragraph and, believe me, have often thought the same. I am pretty anxious and worried; this process of getting Tim off cisapride is much more stressful to me than I thought it would be. I also agree the cats can pick up my worry. I've seen them exhibit some behavioral things on occasion and when I modify my behavior, their behavioral quirks resolve. We are all a lot happier when I am less involved and I'm trying very hard to strike a balance of being aware but not hovering. I think I've made progress with this (I used to follow Tim to the litter box but stopped that quite some time ago), but need to do more.

When Poppy's constipational issues started I would stare at her when she was in the litter box. Even that caused stress, and I learned to glance her way instead just to see if she was in the litter box, then only look occasionally to see if she was straining.

 
Under the direction of our holistic veterinarian, Tim has been getting psyllium for about two weeks. We started with 1/8 tsp, but dropped to 1/16 tsp, which is where he's been. Abby has been getting a tiny amount regularly for almost as long. I originally thought part of the problem was I bumped her quantity, but still less than 1/16 tsp, then gave her Miralax about 12 hours later. She has had Miralax before: three days in a row, 1/16 tsp once per day. I gave her the same dose two mornings ago, though it might have been a bit closer to 1/8 tsp, as my smallest measuring spoon is 1/4 and I have to estimate (will be buying a smaller measuring spoon).

Just a note that about 1/4 tsp. 2x daily is about average. Miralax is dose to effect, though, so you should use whatever the minimum effective dose is.

These are very helpful if you're doing homemade food:

 

[oneandahalfcats]

@AbbyNTim: I am glad that you took my comments in the spirit that they were conveyed, which is out of concern for you and your kitties. Believe me when I say that I know how frustrating and worrying it can be to have a cat with an elimination problem. This has got to be one of the most challenging things to deal with, especially when cats can't tell you how they are feeling or why they can't go. I have learned to lower my expectations where Max is concerned, and not worry if he doesn't go everyday. So long as he goes as regularly as possible, I am satisfied that he is doing well. So far he has been pretty regular. When it happens that he doesn't go in a day, there is usually a very good, practical reason for it, and whatever it is, we will deal with it. Ultimately, like humans, cats have their off days too.

You are fine example of a very caring and conscientious cat parent. Abby and Tim are lucky to have you. I hope things went well/will go well at the vets today ..

 

[abbyntim]

 
When Poppy's constipational issues started I would stare at her when she was in the litter box. Even that caused stress, and I learned to glance her way instead just to see if she was in the litter box, then only look occasionally to see if she was straining.

Just a note that about 1/4 tsp. 2x daily is about average. Miralax is dose to effect, though, so you should use whatever the minimum effective dose is.

These are very helpful if you're doing homemade food:

I watched at first, too. The litter boxes are in the home office and I'm often already in the room when they use the box. I don't watch any more, I remain quiet and continue what I'm doing, then I check after they are well out of the room. If I'm not in the room, I stay away. One benefit to my early watching is that I can often tell by sound if someone is straining or having trouble; I know how much time to expect between pre-digging and post-covering.

Yes, 1/16 tsp once per day over three days worked well for Abby previously. I was worried that I gave the psyllium and miralax too close together. But now that Tim has the exact same diarrhea, I'm not sure that was the cause of Abby's. Thanks for the link about the spoons!!

 

[abbyntim]

 
@AbbyNTim: I am glad that you took my comments in the spirit that they were conveyed, which is out of concern for you and your kitties. Believe me when I say that I know how frustrating and worrying it can be to have a cat with an elimination problem. This has got to be one of the most challenging things to deal with, especially when cats can't tell you how they are feeling or why they can't go. I have learned to lower my expectations where Max is concerned, and not worry if he doesn't go everyday. So long as he goes as regularly as possible, I am satisfied that he is doing well. So far he has been pretty regular. When it happens that he doesn't go in a day, there is usually a very good, practical reason for it, and whatever it is, we will deal with it. Ultimately, like humans, cats have their off days too.

You are fine example of a very caring and conscientious cat parent. Abby and Tim are lucky to have you. I hope things went well/will go well at the vets today ..

Thank you.

I think part of my concern is we don't know what's normal for Tim in terms of BMs. I had over nine months of regular 24-hour BMs with Tim, and actually just adjusted to 36 hours between. Like you say, lower expectations and make sure he is at least going. A big part of my fear, I think, is wanting to avoid the terrible experiences he had when he was constipated. In my head I know it won't ever get that bad. But my emotions often take over ... as you say, Tim cannot tell me he's uncomfortable. I can only guess based on what I see.

Signing off now.

 

[raintyger]

 
I watched at first, too. The litter boxes are in the home office and I'm often already in the room when they use the box. I don't watch any more, I remain quiet and continue what I'm doing, then I check after they are well out of the room. If I'm not in the room, I stay away. One benefit to my early watching is that I can often tell by sound if someone is straining or having trouble; I know how much time to expect between pre-digging and post-covering.

It's amazing how aware of the details we become after constipational problems start. After a while I could distinguish between whether it was urine or poop without looking at the box. Urine didn't require much time in the box at all, and only a little digging/burial. Poppy didn't strain in the box, but poop took much longer before the digging started. And the digging lasted much longer. Often times she'd exit the box and then come back for more burial.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
It's amazing how aware of the details we become after constipational problems start. After a while I could distinguish between whether it was urine or poop without looking at the box. Urine didn't require much time in the box at all, and only a little digging/burial. Poppy didn't strain in the box, but poop took much longer before the digging started. And the digging lasted much longer. Often times she'd exit the box and then come back for more burial.

Yes, in the early days of Max's constipation when he hadn't gone through the day, my husband and I would sit up in bed if we suddenly heard scratching in the box, hoping that this was Max. We'd be up in the second floor and the box is on the first floor. In the quite of the house at night, the kerplunk of the stool hitting the box, followed by lots of scratching of the side of the tub, was unmistakably Max.

 

[abbyntim]

 
It's amazing how aware of the details we become after constipational problems start. After a while I could distinguish between whether it was urine or poop without looking at the box. Urine didn't require much time in the box at all, and only a little digging/burial. Poppy didn't strain in the box, but poop took much longer before the digging started. And the digging lasted much longer. Often times she'd exit the box and then come back for more burial.

Yep, I can definitely tell whether it's urine or poop by scratching and time in the box. I can usually tell by sound which cat, but not always. But I can tell by urine location which cat, and can tell by poop bury style which cat.

 
Yes, in the early days of Max's constipation when he hadn't gone through the day, my husband and I would sit up in bed if we suddenly heard scratching in the box, hoping that this was Max. We'd be up in the second floor and the box is on the first floor. In the quite of the house at night, the kerplunk of the stool hitting the box, followed by lots of scratching of the side of the tub, was unmistakably Max.

Our home office, which is where the litter boxes are kept, is in the bedroom next to ours. Sometimes scratching in the box wakes us, but not usually. Tim is generally an early-morning guy and we will often still be in bed when he goes in and starts digging and digging and digging. Then the pause. Then the cover-up, where he builds a mountain of litter over it. Abby smooths over hers so you can hardly tell she was there.

My gosh, I am so glad I'm not the only one!

 

[abbyntim]

We had a pretty good visit with the holistic veterinarian this morning. I squeezed in both cats for a one-cat appointment and was very grateful to them for accommodating us!

After discussing everything and examining both cats, the vet feels the diarrhea was due to food. Specifically, two things happening very close to each other: Adding the cooked ground turkey and a possible formula or batch change with the Nature's Variety Instinct LID turkey. I neglected to mention here, but the consistency of the LID turkey was very different beginning on either Tuesday or Wednesday. And the vet thinks the issue with the ground turkey may or may not be the BalanceIT, but perhaps the fact that ground turkey is richer than what they are accustomed to. The food plan is to stop all turkey and feed just rabbit until both cats are back to normal. Then gradually add turkey until they are back to eating one can of each per day. Then add a small bit of ground turkey without BalanceIT to make sure they can tolerate ground turkey. Then add BalanceIT in increasing amounts to see how they do.

Other things: Both cats were bright and alert and feisty. They had fluids and anit-diarrhea medication, which we'll continue for a couple of days. I'm stopping probiotics and psyllium while on the medication, but will resume when we're done. Additionally, I'll give probiotics to Abby for about a week to get her gut flora back in shape after being on the medication. The stool samples are going to the lab, just to make sure the problem isn't a parasite. Both cats are home now; I'm at work. I moved the third litter box to the office, just in case they need it. I put fresh water in the kitchen water fountain; had done so with the office water fountain the other day. I gave them each a tiny bit of rabbit, as they were both acting hungry. The vet is okay with them not eating much for the rest of the day as their tummies settle down from the inflammation. She told us not to expect any stools for 36-48 hours, and to expect to wait 2-3 days for their appetites to return to normal.

Thank you all for your support last night and this morning. Now we watch (well, not so much watch!) and wait.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
We had a pretty good visit with the holistic veterinarian this morning. I squeezed in both cats for a one-cat appointment and was very grateful to them for accommodating us!

After discussing everything and examining both cats, the vet feels the diarrhea was due to food. Specifically, two things happening very close to each other: Adding the cooked ground turkey and a possible formula or batch change with the Nature's Variety Instinct LID turkey. I neglected to mention here, but the consistency of the LID turkey was very different beginning on either Tuesday or Wednesday. And the vet thinks the issue with the ground turkey may or may not be the BalanceIT, but perhaps the fact that ground turkey is richer than what they are accustomed to. The food plan is to stop all turkey and feed just rabbit until both cats are back to normal. Then gradually add turkey until they are back to eating one can of each per day. Then add a small bit of ground turkey without BalanceIT to make sure they can tolerate ground turkey. Then add BalanceIT in increasing amounts to see how they do.

Other things: Both cats were bright and alert and feisty. They had fluids and anit-diarrhea medication, which we'll continue for a couple of days. I'm stopping probiotics and psyllium while on the medication, but will resume when we're done. Additionally, I'll give probiotics to Abby for about a week to get her gut flora back in shape after being on the medication. The stool samples are going to the lab, just to make sure the problem isn't a parasite. Both cats are home now; I'm at work. I moved the third litter box to the office, just in case they need it. I put fresh water in the kitchen water fountain; had done so with the office water fountain the other day. I gave them each a tiny bit of rabbit, as they were both acting hungry. The vet is okay with them not eating much for the rest of the day as their tummies settle down from the inflammation. She told us not to expect any stools for 36-48 hours, and to expect to wait 2-3 days for their appetites to return to normal.

Thank you all for your support last night and this morning. Now we watch (well, not so much watch!) and wait.

Glad all went well and that they seem to be getting back to normal.

Originally Posted by AbbyNTim  

But I can tell by urine location which cat, and can tell by poop bury style which cat.

My gosh, I am so glad I'm not the only one!

LOL. Isn't it wonderful. I guess we should be thankful that they are all so different. Makes sorting out suspect poops and who's not peeing enough, much easier.

Max is a corner pee-er/pooper. Maggie goes in the middle of the box and builds mountains over both her pee and poop, like your Tim does. Thomas pees in the middle of the box but usually doesn't cover it, and poops right in the outside corner but does cover his poop.

 

[raintyger]

 
Yes, in the early days of Max's constipation when he hadn't gone through the day, my husband and I would sit up in bed if we suddenly heard scratching in the box, hoping that this was Max. We'd be up in the second floor and the box is on the first floor. In the quite of the house at night, the kerplunk of the stool hitting the box, followed by lots of scratching of the side of the tub, was unmistakably Max.

I remember someone in the Yahoo! feline megacolon and chronic constipation group telling us about waking up from hearing litter box noises in the middle of the night, and everyone knew exactly what he was talking about! Early on I'd wake up from hearing noises at 3:00 a.m. or 4:00 a.m. After I learned to use auditory clues, I didn't jump up and go look inside the litter box, but would make a mental note and roll over until it was time to get up (5:15 a.m.)

 
We had a pretty good visit with the holistic veterinarian this morning. I squeezed in both cats for a one-cat appointment and was very grateful to them for accommodating us!

Great to hear it's only a speed bump!