One of my cats regularly fighting strays.

[User5566]

I'm starting this thread to ask if anyone managed to train their cat not to fight other cats(strays) after he/she started doing so regularly.

First let me say my cats are outdoor/indoor and it's not an option for me to change to indoor only, or make an enclosed outdoor area for cats,or cat proof all of my fences

So back to the point, one of my cats Seth, fights other cats pretty much every 2~3 weeks. He just barely manages to heal his previous injuries (every single time this includes a puncture wound to the inside of his right front leg). I start thinking, he's getting better, he hasn't fought for a while maybe things will change... And then one night I'm woken up in a middle of a night with the sounds of cats fighting. Of course I quickly get up to brake them apart. When I go out my other cat Ramzes usually comes out from some hiding place, but Seth... Every single time he has various injuries. None are really life threatening, but I worry he might loose an eye or get really injured badly while I'm not aware. In a way he's lucky I tend to hear and wake up when they fight.

I think Seth wasn't like this before. I remember situations when he didn't care for other cats strolling right in front of him. On the other hand, perhaps he was fighting, but it was far from home and he wasn't getting injured that much. Why do I think so? He got really ill some time ago (perhaps a year has passed) and he had to get an IV. The vet commented he has lots of scar tissue in the inside of his right front leg where she was trying to put the IV. So I wonder. Also Seth came to live with us at 1 year old (he was born stray in a city, at ~8/10 months old he was picked up by a local cat charity and that's how he ended up with us) so it might have happened prior.

So coming back to the problem. My other cat Ramzes, had a phase when he was behaving like that. Until once he got injured, got an infection and had to get antibiotics. Then he stopped. Now he just hides rather than fights. Perhaps he has the opportunity to hide because Seth fights that other cat?

Seth on the other hand seems to not remember at his injuries at all. Also my vet is of the opinion there is no stopping it. She said "once they(certs) start liking the adrenalin of the fight they will seek more of it". So perhaps I just need to get used to it, but before I do I'm asking here.

Has anyone encountered a situation like this and managed to resolve it without physically separating the cats? I'm not even sure the cat Seth fights is the same one each time as by the time I get to "the scene" the other cat is gone.

 

[game misconduct]

not possible its all part of life on the streets for an outdoor cat along with the chance to be killed by car/ coyote/dog/humans.

 

[Tik cat's mum]

Unfortunately cat's are territorial and fighting is the way they defend what's there's. If your boy's aren't fixed they will be more likely to venture into other cat's territory. And defend their own territory. So if I was you if they aren't fixed I'd get them fixed. That way they will be less likely to roam looking for females. If they are already neutered then they may be having to deal with other cat's coming on their turf. Your vet is right about not being able to stop cat's fighting but they don't fight because they like the trill of the fight, they fight for territory and females, they try to chase other cat's away because they are competition for food and females.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

Are the strays coming on to your property? Do your cats leave the property or stay? Is it fenced in? If it is fenced in and your cats tend to stay in the area but strays come into your yard you can get some deterrents motion sensor sprinklers, air canisters that spray air when a cat walks in front of it, motion sensor light and loud noises... these r some that would work to keep them out but you can't put them if your cats might walk infront of it because they may take off..
Other than that I really don't think anything will stop it short of making him an indoor only cat which I understand you said it is not an option.. may I ask why they can't stay inside or why you can't reinforce the yard to keep the strays out? This way I can understand the circumstances a little better

 

[Hazel06]

I completely understand not being able to have them as indoor only cats, but would it be possible to keep them in at night?
From you post, it sounds like most of the fighting is going on at that time, so that could be an easy solution? (I don't know what you circumstances are, of course)
Other then making sure they are neutered, I don't know of anything else that will help.

 

[User5566]

I forgot to say both my cats are fixed. But Seth was quite old when he had his procedure. He was almost a year old. This might be one reason why he is a lot more territorial than Ramzes that got neutered at few months old.

not possible its all part of life on the streets for an outdoor cat along with the chance to be killed by car/ coyote/dog/humans.

I suspect so, but I thought perhaps people have ideas how to lower the risk. At least regarding cars/dogs/humans my cats are pretty safe mainly because of the remoteness of my location.

Unfortunately cat's are territorial and fighting is the way they defend what's there's. If your boy's aren't fixed they will be more likely to venture into other cat's territory. And defend their own territory. So if I was you if they aren't fixed I'd get them fixed. That way they will be less likely to roam looking for females. If they are already neutered then they may be having to deal with other cat's coming on their turf. Your vet is right about not being able to stop cat's fighting but they don't fight because they like the trill of the fight, they fight for territory and females, they try to chase other cat's away because they are competition for food and females.

They are both fixed. I'm not so sure about the reasons for the fighting in Seth's case. Of course you're right cats are territorial to protect their resources, but I'm definitely getting an impression Seth is enjoying the fighting a lot. Also since the fighting started it seems he's changed his routine in a way it looks like he's waiting for that other cat quite regularly. Of course I can't know for sure and it all may be just him being a lot more territorial in general.

Are the strays coming on to your property? Do your cats leave the property or stay? Is it fenced in? If it is fenced in and your cats tend to stay in the area but strays come into your yard you can get some deterrents motion sensor sprinklers, air canisters that spray air when a cat walks in front of it, motion sensor light and loud noises... these r some that would work to keep them out but you can't put them if your cats might walk infront of it because they may take off..
Other than that I really don't think anything will stop it short of making him an indoor only cat which I understand you said it is not an option.. may I ask why they can't stay inside or why you can't reinforce the yard to keep the strays out? This way I can understand the circumstances a little better

It varies. Most often the stray cat/cats come onto my property and the fighting happens right in front of my house, but occasionally it does happen few meters out on the other side of the fence.

I do have all 4 sides fenced. On 3 sides I have a mesh fence. I saw cats just climbing over (I actively search for and close off any places they go under the fence). The 4th side is a steel fence made up of posts 5in apart. Unfortunately when I made it I didn't consider I might have cats so cats can just walk between the posts or under. Fixing it by putting up a mesh would be quite costly, and they could still just climb over.

Thank you for the motion sensor / sprayer etc idea. I'll do some research about what is available.

I completely understand not being able to have them as indoor only cats, but would it be possible to keep them in at night?
From you post, it sounds like most of the fighting is going on at that time, so that could be an easy solution? (I don't know what you circumstances are, of course)
Other then making sure they are neutered, I don't know of anything else that will help.

Sometimes I can and do, but especially during the summer when the days are very hot and the nights are nice, cool and very illuminated by the moon that would mean us not sleeping but listening to cats meowing all the time asking to be let out... Unfortunately it's not really an option 80% of the time.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

Garden Craft 7ft H X 100ft W Black Vinyl Deer Netting Fence, Maximum width 100 feet https://www.walmart.com/ip/201799381

This is fairly cheap (20 bucks) 7 ft tall by 100ft in length (you can cut the fence down length wise if need be) and put the deterrents on the opposite side of the fense??
How tall are the posts?
I'm really wanting to get you as much help as I can find.. would this be an option?? Then ziptie (also cheap items) them to the posts to hold it up?? I really hope something like this could work for you.

 

[goingpostal]

You can't train a cat to stop acting like a cat no, there's only management and containment which you are unwilling to do so unfortunately yours and these other cats will continue to be stressed and injured. The more the behavior is practiced, the more entrenched it is and he will be constantly on high alert, high stress levels, looking for the next fight. I'm curious how you think you would put the effort into the training when you can't be bothered to train the cats to be calm inside and don't want to make adjustments to your yard to make it safe.

 

[Kflowers]

With your cats going outside, I think one thing that is happening is that Seth is not only protecting his territory, but his brother Rameses and, possibly, you. This heightens his drive.

One thing you must do is carefully watch the length of your boy's claws. Some cats will fight until their claws are little nubs. This means they will be beat up badly by whoever they chose to fight. When this happens you have to keep them inside until their claws grow back. It can take months, but it will happen. This happened to ours, who was fixed. When his claws grew out he attacked us until he was let out to fight. He yelled challenges every single night trying to persuade other cats to come into his yard and fight him. He remained a fighting fool his entire life.

You may need to add a slant to the top of your fence. The additional piece would be 1-2 feet in height. The angle would point inward at about 60 degrees. Most cats can not climb over that much of a slant. You could put one slant going over your yard to keep your cat in and another going out over the other side to keep other cats out. I think heatherwillard0614 may have been suggesting this. However, instead of netting I would use fence posts and chainlink fencing, which would need replacing less often. This will only work if you put it on the top of all the fencing Seth can get to.

 

[game misconduct]

I suspect so, but I thought perhaps people have ideas how to lower the risk. At least regarding cars/dogs/humans my cats are pretty safe mainly because of the remoteness of my location.

only other thing i could think of is building a large enclosed area that allows you to let your cat outside but keeping the strays apart from your cat catio they are called i think

 

[heatherwillard0614]

You may need to add a slant to the top of your fence. The additional piece would be 1-2 feet in height. The angle would point inward at about 60 degrees. Most cats can not climb over that much of a slant. You could put one slant going over your yard to keep your cat in and another going out over the other side to keep other cats out. I think heatherwillard0614 may have been suggesting this. However, instead of netting I would use fence posts and chainlink fencing, which would need replacing less often. This will only work if you put it on the top of all the fencing Seth can get to.

Yes this is exactly what I was getting at.. I was trying to find the cheapest option to fix their pre-existing fence because they were worried about the cost... you are absolutely correct tho better material would last a lot longer.

I do have all 4 sides fenced. On 3 sides I have a mesh fence. I saw cats just climbing over (I actively search for and close off any places they go under the fence). The 4th side is a steel fence made up of posts 5in apart. Unfortunately when I made it I didn't consider I might have cats so cats can just walk between the posts or under. Fixing it by putting up a mesh would be quite costly, and they could still just climb over.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

U User5566 Do you think you would be able to get a catio? Or at least do one of the 2 options: 《fixing the fencing or catio》 which ever one would be the cheaper option to keep your resident cats safe?

 

[User5566]

I appreciate the advice to improve fences, but I have about 300m of fence including 210m of it already a mesh. Judging how easily cats climb over that mesh I think it will be very difficult to stop them with more mesh unless I have something like this :

But that is unlikely to happen.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

If you fix the fencing and put the deterrents on the outside to keep the strays out..
Also you could go to the hardware store and see what they have that you could use with an angle like that then attach it to the top of the existing fence on the inside to keep your cats in.. and on the outside the deterrents would keep the strays out or you could build it like the picture above... then you wouldn't have to use any deterrents but your cats would be safe..
Also is there a reason you don't want to get a catio for your cats

 

[User5566]

If you fix the fencing and put the deterrents on the outside to keep the strays out..
Also you could go to the hardware store and see what they have that you could use with an angle like that then attach it to the top of the existing fence on the inside to keep your cats in.. and on the outside the deterrents would keep the strays out or you could build it like the picture above... then you wouldn't have to use any deterrents but your cats would be safe..
Also is there a reason you don't want to get a catio for your cats

I believe my second or third sentence in this thread was "First let me say my cats are outdoor/indoor and it's not an option for me to change to indoor only, or make an enclosed outdoor area for cats,or cat proof all of my fences".

This thread is not about physical separation, but about what (if anything) can be done behaviorally to change how Seth behaves. My other cat Ramzes lives in exact same conditions (except being fixed few months earlier) and except one episode he doesn't fight other cats that come around.

Perhaps it is just how Seth is and I can't change him. If that is so, I'll try to deal with it. But 6 months ago he wasn't fighting other cats with such eagerness and now he does (he has been with us for 2 years). So something changed. Yes, he did get bigger. Maybe this is what makes him more confident? I don know. I started this thread to see if anyone has had any behavioral method that worked.

 

[Kflowers]

Yes, what I was thinking of was like the picture you posted only not with barbed wire - that is horrible stuff made to slowly kill any animal or bird that gets near it. I was thinking continuing the chain link on the top pieces.

I suppose you need to start calling feline behaviorists and consulting with them. I, personally, don't believe there is a behavioral solution, however, there are things in this world I haven't read about. If you find a behaviorist who has one and it works, we'd love to hear about it.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

I suppose you need to start calling feline behaviorists and consulting with them. I, personally, don't believe there is a behavioral solution, however, there are things in this world I haven't read about. If you find a behaviorist who has one and it works, we'd love to hear about it.

Yes please if you do find a way to get the situation under control please let us know..

And yes, I know you said you can't do those things.. I was just wondering what the problem is that you are running into and if I could help you come up with a solution to help make it a possibility..

With a catio it could be butted up to the house and they could still be indoor/outdoor just in a controlled environment..

 

[User5566]

Yes, what I was thinking of was like the picture you posted only not with barbed wire - that is horrible stuff made to slowly kill any animal or bird that gets near it. I was thinking continuing the chain link on the top pieces.

I agree this is horrible stuff from the functional point of view, but also it looks horrible(and requires planning approval here to be that high). Also imagine the cost for just these steel "spreaders". You can't just put something so heavy on top of a normal mesh held by posts. You need a foundation of some sort or at least very strong posts, but IMO the whole conversation about fencing to stop a cat is very theoretical. I never in my life saw a fence that can stop a determined cat unless it is a full enclosure. If anyone has a fence that reliably stops cats, please post a picture. I'd love to see how one looks.

I suppose you need to start calling feline behaviorists and consulting with them. I, personally, don't believe there is a behavioral solution, however, there are things in this world I haven't read about. If you find a behaviorist who has one and it works, we'd love to hear about it.

Well, cats are very complex in their behaviour and what influences it. For example on this forum I saw a couple posts about putting a tiny bit of vanilla extract on two cats that don't accept one another (within one home, not outdoors). It is to give both cats a similar smell which allegedly makes them accept one another. I'm not proposing capturing strays and putting vanilla on them. I'm just giving this as an example where behavior based approach is useful.

Yes please if you do find a way to get the situation under control please let us know..

Of course.

And yes, I know you said you can't do those things.. I was just wondering what the problem is that you are running into and if I could help you come up with a solution to help make it a possibility..

With a catio it could be butted up to the house and they could still be indoor/outdoor just in a controlled environment..

Cost is obviously one element of it, but also the disruption to dig up all the perimeter and to give workers access to it, the time to manage workers for at least 3 weeks (thats how long it took the first time), just having them around is a hassle (I'm still finding empty vodka bottles on the surrounding land 4 years later). The waste of replacing perfectly fine fencing that has 15 years of use left in it. And finally I don't believe, within my requirements of not making my land look like a military base, there is a fence I can realistically build that will stop a determined cat climbing over. So that's about fencing.

Catio-wise, the only way it would work for us is something like a "winter garden" (essentially an attached greenhouse). I've been planning to build something like this for years. Realistically it will probably ve at least 5 years before I can (not just money wise, disruption and all the other stuff plays into it)

Coming back to Seth. I I've tried to "train" him to come home for the night and spend it at home. In this I'm only somwhat successfull. Every day for a couple of days I'd take him home and pet him right before I go to sleep. Every day of last week I didn't even have to "take him home". He would be lying outside on a bench, I'd open a balcony door next to it, he would come in by himself, jump onto the couch, I'd pet him and he would stay there grooming or sleeping when I go to sleep. By the time he wanted to get out around 5am it is dawn and the other cat was "missed" for the night.

This worked fine for a bit, until I swear he started looking for the other cat. Yesterday instead of waiting on the bench next to the house in the evening I saw him in a far corner of the property "waiting" (the usual place the other cat comes in). It wasn't time to get him home so I waited, but instead of coming home Seth dissappeared for the night and came back in the morning bruised, scratched etc. I haven't heard anything during the night. So I have to assume he went far out looking for fight and he found it.

I'm hoping to be able to spot unusual behaviour next time before he goes off to take him in earlier (unless he just goes earlier every time). We' ll see.

 

[Kflowers]

The vanilla is when you want indoor cats to get along not the neighbors' cats who come into your yard.

You might have some success with a behaviorist who is working with Seth to change Seth's behavior not the other cats. I don't know if it's possible to train a cat to ignore other cats in his territory, a cat behaviorist would know whether it could be done or not. You would have to watch out for scammers, because there are always some offering to fix what most think is unfixable. I would also avoid any who suggest things like getting Seth's voice removed (I don't know what's that called but it is done more often in dogs) so he can't issue challenges to other cats.

Of course, if all the possible solutions can't be done, tell your vet so you can bring him in as needed without the now normal two week wait. Open wounds need to be seen fairly quickly. Odds are repairs will involve giving Seth pills. There are several threads on giving cats pills if it comes to that.

If your behaviorist can train Seth to stop challenging other cats, we would be interested in what s/he did.

 

[User5566]

Thank you for the reply. I'm trying to change Seth's behavior myself, rather than engaging an external behaviorist.

So I'm looking for tips/advice anyone might have on this (methods/ideas).

Training him to spend most nights at home is definitely going to cut the number of opportunities for fighting. So I'm continuing that. I'm hoping to be able to at least cut on the number of these fights substantially.

My vet would see our cats the same day in an emergency. But going to the vet is a major thing as we're pretty remote. So we know how to and do treat many small injuries ourselves. On the rare occasion there is infection of course we take our cats to the vet. Our vet usually gives the cat the initial injection and gives us the remaining ones so we can do them ourselves.