old cat being too picky and getting thin - food question

[m935]

So tigger is 17, has hyperthyroidism and kidney failure. Ive been feeding him several low phosperous foods in the last 6 months. He would eat them normally until the last month. He clearly Wants to eat, but walks away. Ive tried tuna, but then afraid hed only eat that. Its been frustrating. I noticed 2 days ago i can feel bones, i couldnt before and i got really scared. I started giving him friskees again. Along with epakitin for the kidney disease.
My question is.. is it more important to get him to eat anything at this point? He eats poultry platter, but i started giving him the friskees chicken in gravy and washing off the gravy, in hopes its more healthy and less damaging to his kidneys.

thanks!!

 

[Meezers]

At his age I would give him what he is willing to eat. I wish you and Tigger the best. Good vibes coming your way.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. Have you tried the Fancy Feast pates? That is what I began feeding Feeby when she started to turn her nose up at food she had been on for years. You could look up the ingredients to make sure that you are comfortable with what is in them. Also, look up Sheba Perfect Portions and Nutro (similar to Sheba) - both also come in pates, as well as other non-pates.

There are also all kinds of lickable treats (they are very small amounts and all puree type foods) that you could mix with his regular food to see if that might make a difference (Applaws Puree, Vitakraft Lickable treats, Tiki Cat Stix or Mousse, Inaba Churu, Wholehearted). I have even used Gerber Stage 2 baby food meats which only contain meat, meat juice, and cornstarch. Beechnut baby food meats don't even contain any cornstarch.

He needs to eat enough to keep his strength up. Is he due for a vet visit to recheck his thyroid and kidney levels?

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I've had three kidney cats, and our Vet told us it's better that they eat ANYTHING versus only low phos. food And naturally, they didn't like the kidney foods at all. So, we gave them a variety of foods, and some were very high in phosphorus, and others were fairly low. We never used any phos. binder or anything similar to Epakakin.

Just a word about Fancy Feast pates. Of all the Fancy Feast lines, the pates are the healthiest, however, they are also the highest in phosphorus. Figures. Anyway, the Friskie's Chicken N Gravy isn't bad for kidney cats. No need to wash off the gravy. The phosphorus is 1.2% on a dry matter basis. I always tried to shoot for 1% of under, so really, this isn't bad. Especially if he'll eat it, as that's the number one key issue. Beef N Gravy is even better at 1.1% if he might like a change in pace. At one point, one of the foods my old girl liked was 3.4% phosphorus, but she loved it, and she was skinny as a rail, so she got it. Luckily she didn't like it for too long. I did find with her that several smaller meals were the ticket to getting her to eat more. And when I say several, I mean 8 - 9 meals spread out through the day AND night. Two of them were in the middle of the night. I would freeze them and keep them on my nightstand. One would start to thaw immediately, and the other I would set on an icepak. Once she ate the first one I would take the other off the icepak to let it thaw. Worked great and I never had to completely wake up to feed her.

Have you seen this site? https://felinecrf.org/index.htm It was absolutely my "go to" for anything kidney related. They have lists of wet and dry food in order of the amount of phosphorus in them, as well as tons of other information. It's not interactive like we are, but still full of must have information for anyone with a kidney cat (IMHO)

 

[m935]

Thank you all so much for your input! Very helpful (The vets in my area.. Not so much). I feel better now.

 

[35 year catdad]

We are in stage 3-4? with an off the charts BUN of 127 and creatinine of 5.3 phos not too bad at 8.6 (upper level should be less than 6.3 and on Oct 19 she was in kitty "sepsis" I call it. Smoke from fires I think has poisoned her system. Toxins from bad air have to be filtered and 19 yr old livers and kidneys can only do so much. Shes indoor all her life with an activated charcoal pre filtered ULPA filter running but I caught her outside on upper deck in 100 degree temps in horrible air one day after leaving for 3 hrs. Soooooo I stopped leaving.
8 scary things emerg. vet listed. Normal T4 thyroid in my 19 yr old so thats my foundation of hope!

Our local vet said there is not much to be done with all her issues. Deal with one...and another goes out of whack. In other words
put her down? wow hey now hang on....not so quick...shes not walking with stiff back legs now, out of hiding, putting on weight, but subQ every day is not fun but other options arent fun either. Kitty ashes are good for plants but Kit kits ashes are still feeding the rose bush just fine.
Well we didn't listen to the grave news and throw in the Tortie towel and she wants more time with Martin her loving boyfriend and myself. how do I know? welll
she told me!


My old gal is nuts for tuna and wild sockeye from Alaska.
A friend that was a vet assistant says Give her what she'll eat! ok ok so I take some rinsed dark tuna (albacore has way more mercury than dark) and cover her turkey/chicken food of 19 yrs with a light coating of it and she starts in and keeps going to finish most of non tuna meals underneath it.
Its like "priming a pump"
best wishes for tigger!

 

[m935]

Thanks. Tigger just stops eating once he's finished food he likes on top. part of the aggravation of getting him to eat.
Now does being picky mean he's close to the end???
I believe hes actually still in the beginning stages. My vet isnt helpful. He doesn't get fluids as he doesn't yet need.
I started with probiotics again today as well since hes eating crap food again.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Feeby (16+yo) is being a real PITA when it comes to food - no how, no way does that mean anything near the end for her!!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

kidney cats are notorious for not eating. That's why our Vet advised to let them eat anything they would even if it's "crap food". That was the hardest thing for me to do - throw away all my good sense and feed grains, etc. just so they would eat. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end. Mine lived three years after diagnosis. All of them .

 

[m935]

Thank you. Thank you!!! Best wishes to you all and your cats! Tigger is my very first cat... And as everyone here knows this can all be very scary. Wish i asked sooner.
Did i do damage in the last month of letting him eat half as much?
I always read they will never starve themselves.

 

[35 year catdad]

kidney cats are notorious for not eating. That's why our Vet advised to let them eat anything they would even if it's "crap food". That was the hardest thing for me to do - throw away all my good sense and feed grains, etc. just so they would eat. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end. Mine lived three years after diagnosis. All of them .

You just gave me hope but I may be poking needles every day from here on out.
Were any stage 3-4? Is a BUN of 127 hopeless? I asked my vet will we make our 1 yr
follow up visit, and they just gave me that look. I dont like that hopeless look.
I'm gonna try some canned crap food. WAY better than any crap kibble. I have an old lady that likes to just nibble and stop. 6.5 lbs now and was 13 I think but never obese.
Studies show that 15-20% reduction in calories equals up to 20% longer life. In us too.
But who likes looking at skinny cats? That whine constantly for food. The coyotes in my yard were just skin and bones.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Thank you. Thank you!!! Best wishes to you all and your cats! Tigger is my very first cat... And as everyone here knows this can all be very scary. Wish i asked sooner.
Did i do damage in the last month of letting him eat half as much?
I always read they will never starve themselves.

Kidney disease IS very scary. And there is no cure for it, but that doesn't mean it's an automatic death sentence. I don't think you "let him eat half as much". You offered him food, he rejected it. This will probably continue to happen from here on out. With all of mine, every day was a guess "will they eat today? If so, how much? Etc, etc, etc. So my advice is to have plenty of different foods on hand, and if he doesn't want one, try another. Use toppers, try many different things, even crushed Temptations if he likes them. You can use parmesan cheese from the green "can", but use that sparingly if possible because of the salt content in it.

Ask for appetite stimulants if he doesn't even seem to like the bad for him foods. We used them. Sometimes they worked well, sometimes not so much. It really depended on how well they were feeling, overall. And we used transdermal gels rather than pill form. If he starts vomiting foamy stuff, that is a sign of an over acidic tummy, and that can be helped with Pepcid A/C, which can be given orally or we did it via injections, which just go right into the scruff with an insulin needed (very teeny) and they don't even feel it, however, that way does require a prescription.

Be sure to thoroughly examine that website I provided above. It talks about food, nausea, not eating, other issues (like hypothyroidism, and goes into detail about how to handle each issue, where to get supplies, etc. It's really great..

BTW, that adage about cats never starving themselves, I'm not sure if it's true or not. With our last kidney cat, sometimes I swore she would have if I had not kept offering her bowl after bowl of different foods daily until something smelled good to her. It was obvious to me that she was really, really hungry, yet she would not eat until she got something she really wanted, and unfortunately, I had no idea what that was. If only they could let us know before the cans were opened. And I fed my others cats raw so I didn't really want to give them her leftovers

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You just gave me hope but I may be poking needles every day from here on out.
Were any stage 3-4? Is a BUN of 127 hopeless? I asked my vet will we make our 1 yr
follow up visit, and they just gave me that look. I dont like that hopeless look.
I'm gonna try some canned crap food. WAY better than any crap kibble. I have an old lady that likes to just nibble and stop. 6.5 lbs now and was 13 I think but never obese.
Studies show that 15-20% reduction in calories equals up to 20% longer life. In us too.
But who likes looking at skinny cats? That whine constantly for food. The coyotes in my yard were just skin and bones.

BUN of 127 is high, but we always looked at the Creatinine vs the BUN to judge how they were doing. Do you have that figure? Are you giving sub-q's daily, is that what the poking daily reference is about? We never did daily sub-q's routinely, even in Stage 4. I think we typically did fluids 2 to 3 times per week. Our old girl got down to 5 pounds and stayed there for the last two years of her life, no matter how much she ate, and in the last few months she really started eating a lot more, once I started feeding her in two meals in the middle of the night.

Yes, canned food is so much better for kidney cats, since they are constantly needing hydration. I always added a lot of water (probably a Tablespoon) to each small meal, and with 8 - 9 meals a day, that came to at least an extra 1/2 cup of water, not to mention what's already in the food. Plus she had her very own fountain because my other cats didn't like drinking from it for some reason. No reason why your girl can't have both canned AND dry, if she'll eat them both. If she continues to nibble on the dry, I'd certainly leave it out for her.

 

[m935]

Kidney disease IS very scary. And there is no cure for it, but that doesn't mean it's an automatic death sentence. I don't think you "let him eat half as much". You offered him food, he rejected it. This will probably continue to happen from here on out. With all of mine, every day was a guess "will they eat today? If so, how much? Etc, etc, etc. So my advice is to have plenty of different foods on hand, and if he doesn't want one, try another. Use toppers, try many different things, even crushed Temptations if he likes them. You can use parmesan cheese from the green "can", but use that sparingly if possible because of the salt content in it.

Ask for appetite stimulants if he doesn't even seem to like the bad for him foods. We used them. Sometimes they worked well, sometimes not so much. It really depended on how well they were feeling, overall. And we used transdermal gels rather than pill form. If he starts vomiting foamy stuff, that is a sign of an over acidic tummy, and that can be helped with Pepcid A/C, which can be given orally or we did it via injections, which just go right into the scruff with an insulin needed (very teeny) and they don't even feel it, however, that way does require a prescription.

Be sure to thoroughly examine that website I provided above. It talks about food, nausea, not eating, other issues (like hypothyroidism, and goes into detail about how to handle each issue, where to get supplies, etc. It's really great..

BTW, that adage about cats never starving themselves, I'm not sure if it's true or not. With our last kidney cat, sometimes I swore she would have if I had not kept offering her bowl after bowl of different foods daily until something smelled good to her. It was obvious to me that she was really, really hungry, yet she would not eat until she got something she really wanted, and unfortunately, I had no idea what that was. If only they could let us know before the cans were opened. And I fed my others cats raw so I didn't really want to give them her leftovers

Thanks!! Actually my next questio was about pepcid. I think im gonna try this week. I have it stocked for my dog.
Is it ok with methonazole and the epakitin i just started? Thanks again.
And i have read tanyas site.. Its a lot. but ive taken some advice. Used it to research for hours the right food (that tigger now hates)

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

For cats, it MUST be Pepcid A/C, and I believe the dose is 1/4 tablet, but depending on how bad he is (meaning the possible vomiting, etc) would determine how often to give it. However, since you are giving epakitin, you do need to discuss using Pepcid A/C with your Vet before giving it as there could be an interaction between these two drugs. I don't know about the methonazole, but your Vet should. Anytime you want to try something, just give your Vet a call and run it buy them, because the kidney's can't filter things like they should so your Vet needs to give their input. .

 

[35 year catdad]

Hibous's creatinine was 5.3 with normal range per IDEXX labs of 0.9-2.3
Shes craving fish fish and more fish maybe because fish oils are ant inflammatory and good for failing kidneys?


Thanks to Fukishima our west coast fish are now a bit radio active. If its not one poison in our food...its another!
Na: K ratio was 46 and normal is 29-42
She has had a bounce in her step...even trotting across the room on days of her sub Q and next day eats less and rests more on her K H heating pad.
One vet said do this daily and another said every other. 50cc for a 6.3 lb old lady cat, every other day 50cc was my fist directive.
potassium was a bit low at 3.3 normal range 3.7 - 5.2
phosphorus was 8.6 and normal is 2.9 - 6.3
my homework for today: research phosphorus levels in fish
If she doesnt want to finish a meal now, she may finish it in 15 minutes.

I find she eats more when the other cat vultures are right there ready to snag it!
The calming spray did not work but seems to on her boyfriend. I mark the IV bag with a dark line so its easy to see from down here.The needles are sharp but not that sharp and I use 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper (new unused) to gently drag the needle a bit across it dragging it gently away from the needle tip and do the edges, and they become super sharp and go in easier. I then use Betasept surgical scrub to disinfect the tip and flush a bit with ringers before they go in. Here is this mornings helper. assistant. Hibou just jumped up on my lap so I better go she already perked up!!! 20 mins later.

 

[Caspers Human]

I agree. Any cat that makes it to 17, pretty much, deserves to eat whatever he wants.

I think it's good to try to give him a better diet to help manage his health problems but, face the facts, he's getting "up there" in age. He's going to experience more health issues as he ages.

Maybe you could try to feed him a selection of different things... sometimes healthier... sometimes yummier... or even mix two foods together but, in my opinion, it's better to give him things to eat to make him happy in this stage of his life.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Hibous's creatinine was 5.3 with normal range per IDEXX labs of 0.9-2.3
Shes craving fish fish and more fish maybe because fish oils are ant inflammatory and good for failing kidneys? Maybe because it smells more than anything else, I have no idea, but my girl also ended up eating more fish flavored canned cat food, which I never even served prior to her kidney disease.

She has had a bounce in her step...even trotting across the room on days of her sub Q and next day eats less and rests more on her K H heating pad. Certainly nothing wrong with doing fluids every day, especially if it's lower amounts. It's just that too much fluids can pverload the heart. We just didn't have the heart to do it every single day, because it was stressful for the cats. It didn't hurt them, but they still didn't like it.

potassium was a bit low at 3.3 normal range 3.7 - 5.2 Have you discussed adding potassium to her meds?
phosphorus was 8.6 and normal is 2.9 - 6.3 Have you considered using phos binders? Not sure at what point they are needed since we never needed to use them. None of our cats had raised phosphorus

If she doesnt want to finish a meal now, she may finish it in 15 minutes. Nothing wrong with leaving out wet food for a couple hours, if you can keep the other cats out of it

.The needles are sharp but not that sharp We use Terumo, which are very sharp!

 

[m935]

Fish is ok for kidneys? What about thyroid?
His fur doesn't stay up when held. But ive been thinking of trying fluids.
He had diabetes years ago and was fine with needles.
Where do you recommend buying supplies??
Thanks.

 

[Jem]

But ive been thinking of trying fluids.

That is the one thing that would always get my CKD kitty back to eating again. I was going to mention it but then read your last post. Please do try this...it worked wonders for us.