Non-Believers

[mschauer]

Yup, something in the poor dogs previous diet didn't agree with him and a change in diet did the trick. Who knows if it had to be a change to raw though?

Depends what the parents/owners have tried before.
Being myself in a similar situation, I can say that when you try it all, all diets and treatments you can possibly try, and raw works immediately like that.... Yeah - you know for certain that the change to RAW did it. I don't have a shadow of a doubt, nor does Bugsy's vet :nod:

Feeding a raw diet has helped in many cases. The question isn't whether raw helped. The question is whether raw was the only thing that could have helped.

 

[carolina]

Feeding a raw diet has helped in many cases. The question isn't whether raw helped. The question is whether raw was the only thing that could have helped.

For Bugsy, tested and true, yes. No question about it. Trust me, only his vet and I know all we tried, when I say we tried it all, I am not saying it lightly. One of the reasons why I tried it all, is because I did not believe raw was the answer and I was afraid of it. Only when I was absolutely out of choices I tried it. It worked immediately. So yeah.... While some might have doubts, I have none - nor does his vet.

 

[ldg]

Feeding a raw diet has helped in many cases. The question isn't whether raw helped. The question is whether raw was the only thing that could have helped.

For people who have an issue with feeding raw. And when, like Carolina, they've tried everything and a zillion foods and kitty has had diarrhea for 18 months... you want to help people skip all of that. At least I do. :dk:

 

[mschauer]

Feeding a raw diet has helped in many cases. The question isn't whether raw helped. The question is whether raw was the only thing that could have helped.

For Bugsy, tested and true, yes. No question about it. Trust me, only his vet and I know all we tried, when I say we tried it all, I am not saying it lightly.

Really it isn't possible that you tried literally everything. I think you mean you tried everything that you and your vet knew to try. You can't know what you could have tried but didn't know about.

Did you try cooked home made?

Regardless, the point is that until we understand why raw helps in some cases we really can't say that the solution has to be raw. There is always the possibility that once we understand we will also understand what other solutions could help also.

 

[carolina]

Really it isn't possible that you tried literally everything. I think you mean you tried everything that you and your vet knew to try. You can't know what you could have tried but didn't know about.
Did you try cooked home made?
Regardless, the point is that until we understand why raw helps in some cases we really can't say that the solution has to be raw. There is always the possibility that once we understand we will also understand what other solutions could help also.

I had 3 vets working on Bugsy. His main vet is an amazing vet, who has been practicing since 1987, he worked on Bugsy for close to 2 years on this issue not alone, but with his peers from Texas A&M. Now..... No, I did not try black magic. But yes, I did try everything we could possibly try - inside, outside of the box, western, holistic, diets, medications, you name it, we did it.
Yes, In fact I tried cooked food.
I can be here until both of us are blue in the face. I know I tried it all, and Raw worked - I don't need anything more than that. As I said, I know that, and His VET knows that. His vet, who treated him, who has all the tests, who did all the trials.
So - for me, that is that, and the end of it.

Regardless, the point is that until we understand why raw helps in some cases we really can't say that the solution has to be raw. There is always the possibility that once we understand we will also understand what other solutions could help also.

There is always the possibility you think this way because you personally don't have a pet where you were put in a position where you were out of choices. Where you and your vet tried everything that could be tried without avail...... Maybe then you would think differently. Some of us however, do. I DO.

 

[otto]

I turned to raw because I was desperate. Not in the way that Carolina and Bugsy were. Not yet anyway. But I had two cats heading down some not so happy road. Queen Eva with her inability to absorb nutrients from the canned food, when I could actually get her to EAT it. And Mazy, with her inability to tolerate anything but one brand one flavor of food, after a digestion practically ruined by 6 1/2 years on c/d kibble.

They are not 100% raw. But, even being fed a partial raw diet, the changes, improvements, are absolutely stunning. Queen Eva gained weight, her coat is nice for the first time ever, and her appetite has completely turned around. Mazy's regurgitation is so few and far between now, I often forget she ever had the problem. Her constipation has disappeared and she is not having hair ball troubles. Her coat is so soft, her energy level and the look of her face makes me think she has lost four years.

And now Jennie, who didn't really seem to need much improvement, is beginning to show the same positive changes.

To me, this is absolutely incredible. I never would have believed it, if I hadn't experienced it right here in my own home with my own cats.

Skeptics elsewhere have suggested my observations are a placebo effect, that I am only seeing what I want to see, not what is really there. But I know better. :lol3:

I still carry some fear about "doing it wrong" and that is, in part, what keeps me from going 100% frankenprey.

 

[ldg]

Ah, but when your vet sees them, you'll know it's not placebo.

Tuxedo, who battled an autoimmune disease that caused anemia, has had a hematocrit of 41% TWICE now on raw - the first time a month or two after starting it, and the latest just a couple of weeks ago. And their body shapes have changed, so even for the kitties that didn't need to lose weight (Shel, Tux), their body - what's the word? composition? - is better. And they are SO soft - just SO soft. And the vet, who only sees them every six months will notice these changes.

 

[otto]

Yes! The change in their shape...the muscles, the way they move.....I noticed it in Mazy cat starting a coupe of weeks ago, and now I am seeing this change in Jennie too, just the past day I am noticing it, in Jennie, though I've noticed for a few days now that she is playing more. Jennie and Mazy weigh the same as they always have, but their figures are different. More...supple, their movements more....darnit I just can't think of the work I want.

They have a different way of moving, their muscle mass is more developed. My vet was quite impressed with Queen Eva, and she will be seeing Jennie on Tuesday. The one I'm really excited about her seeing is Mazy cat. That's not until December.

So happy to hear about Tuxedo!

I never would have believed it, truly. I wonder if I will always feel this incredulous awe over the difference raw feeding makes. Probably. After all it's been over 13 years since I quit smoking and I still marvel over it. That I was able to do it I mean. :lol3:

 

[auntie crazy]

By and large, commercial pet foods are unhealthy for cats and there is plenty of evidence to prove it, from simply reviewing the garbage (literally) from which it's created to studies linking various diets (usually kibble) to various ailments. Heck, all you have to do is follow the spread of commercial pet food across the globe and watch the concurrent increase of every single standard "old-age" feline disease - cancer, kidney failure, diabetes, arthritis, etc. - to see the truth of this.

That said, I've been a raw-feeding advocate for several years and I've yet to have been of help to a single owner using a hard sell. I am by nature a passionate personality and - like many "converts" - I'm also deeply moved to share this "new" knowledge... a bad combination when not properly tempered. My initial attempts were beautiful examples of spectacular crash and burn approaches, a spankingly complete primer on everything not to do, and it was only my driving need to make a difference for cats and their owners that I kept going.

(In fact, in being forced to learn to connect with people on this subject, I actually ended up altering my approach to just about every conversation I hold today.)

You cannot force someone to change, everyone acknowledges that, I think. Beyond that, you can't even make a person truly hear what you have to share without first giving that person a reason to listen to you.

And the way to do that is with compassion, empathy and respect. If you do not respect the person to whom you are speaking, you might as well not bother talking at all. And if you are not able to put aside your overwhelming desire to share this "amazing and transformative" information and remember how it feels to be the one receiving this news, the one being told that they're, in a sense (from their perspective) poisoning their beloved kitty, you will fail in your endeavor and make enemies while you're doing it.

No one spends time researching foods unless they care for their cats, and you need to believe that and be compassionate with your message.

If you really feel like you need to talk to others about what they feed their cats, try thinking of it as planting seeds and do it like a gardener - with gentle care. You can't force seeds to sprout, but you can drop them gently into the ground and pat the soil around them very lightly. When the time is right, the seeds will grow. 

AC

 

[mani]

Good on you Auntie Crazy.

I'm one of those who tried raw, all inspired from here, but have gone back to raw and a fair bit of canned as they just weren't coming at it.

Now I'm all inspired again after reading this.

I know it sounds like excuses, but we don't have the same choice in Australia as a lot of the US/Canadian/UK people do.  The pre-made raw available to me isn't grain-free for example.  I could make my own, but I just baulk at it as I don't eat meat and it's so hard to do.

So, be gentle on those who try, and even on those who don't want to know

 

[mschauer]

By and large, commercial pet foods are unhealthy for cats and there is plenty of evidence to prove it, from simply reviewing the garbage (literally) from which it's created to studies linking various diets (usually kibble) to various ailments. Heck, all you have to do is follow the spread of commercial pet food across the globe and watch the concurrent increase of every single standard "old-age" feline disease - cancer, kidney failure, diabetes, arthritis, etc. - to see the truth of this.

That said, I've been a raw-feeding advocate for several years and I've yet to have been of help to a single owner using a hard sell. I am by nature a passionate personality and - like many "converts" - I'm also deeply moved to share this "new" knowledge... a bad combination when not properly tempered. My initial attempts were beautiful examples of spectacular crash and burn approaches, a spankingly complete primer on everything not to do, and it was only my driving need to make a difference for cats and their owners that I kept going.

(In fact, in being forced to learn to connect with people on this subject, I actually ended up altering my approach to just about every conversation I hold today.)

You cannot force someone to change, everyone acknowledges that, I think. Beyond that, you can't even make a person truly hear what you have to share without first giving that person a reason to listen to you.

And the way to do that is with compassion, empathy and respect. If you do not respect the person to whom you are speaking, you might as well not bother talking at all. And if you are not able to put aside your overwhelming desire to share this "amazing and transformative" information and remember how it feels to be the one receiving this news, the one being told that they're, in a sense (from their perspective) poisoning their beloved kitty, you will fail in your endeavor and make enemies while you're doing it.

No one spends time researching foods unless they care for their cats, and you need to believe that and be compassionate with your message.

If you really feel like you need to talk to others about what they feed their cats, try thinking of it as planting seeds and do it like a gardener - with gentle care. You can't force seeds to sprout, but you can drop them gently into the ground and pat the soil around them very lightly. When the time is right, the seeds will grow. 

AC

Excellent post!

I can't agree that there is conclusive evidence that commercial pet foods are "unhealthy". If there were, convincing someone to switch to an alternative diet would be an easy sell.

But I think all the other is spot on. Switching to a raw diet can help many suffering cats. Suggesting it in a way that doesn't come across as arrogant or condescending will get the best results. And always remember that the vast majority of the people you are talking to have long experience with feeding commercial pet foods with absolutely no problem and know many others who can say the same.

 

[otto]

Excellent post!

I can't agree that there is conclusive evidence that commercial pet foods are "unhealthy". If there were, convincing someone to switch to an alternative diet would be an easy sell.

But I think all the other is spot on. Switching to a raw diet can help many suffering cats. Suggesting it in a way that doesn't come across as arrogant or condescending will get the best results. And always remember that the vast majority of the people you are talking to have long experience with feeding commercial pet foods with absolutely no problem and know many others who can say the same.

Yeah "my cat lived to be 36 on Purina cat chow". Uh huh. But what they don't understand is that that cat probably felt vaguely sick all his life. He probably was dehydrated and had a stomachache, all the time. Ah well. Like was said here in many different ways, all we can do is plant the seed. I'm still just trying to plant seeds from dry to wet, in most cases, let alone raw.

 

[mschauer]

Yes! The change in their shape...the muscles, the way they move.....

I never would have believed it, truly. I wonder if I will always feel this incredulous awe over the difference raw feeding makes. Probably.

I think you will also. Like I said in my first post it is the change in their energy level and body composition that makes me the most sure that a raw diet is healthier for them than a commercial processed diet. Unfortunately that change in a cat is something people have to see with their eyes after making the switch in order to really understand. Until they see themselves they think their cats already have good energy and body composition.

 

[mschauer]

Feeding a raw diet has helped in many cases. The question isn't whether raw helped. The question is whether raw was the only thing that could have helped.

For people who have an issue with feeding raw. And when, like Carolina, they've tried everything and a zillion foods and kitty has had diarrhea for 18 months... you want to help people skip all of that. At least I do.

Of course. I don't know that has to do with my post though. 

 I didn't suggest that no one should try to convince others to switch to raw. I was just pointing out one of the reasons why it is difficult to convince "non-believers" to try raw feeding. That is the topic of the thread after all. 

 

[ldg]

Sorry, I guess nothing. :dk:

 

[minka]

Your first mistake was to go into this saying 'kibble is unhealthy.' Now.. I don't disagree with you, but when you are trying to convince/educate somebody, you don't go about it by telling them they they are feeding their pets crap. Once they are on the defensive, you have lost the game.

My secret way for trying to spread the word (to educate, just as you were trying to do) is to just mention little tidbits here and there: encouraging people to buy a food slightly better quality than what they are, either by giving suggestions or even purchasing better food for them myself; helping people with fat cats by telling Grim's story and giving them hope that their cat can make a major weight loss journey as well by changing diet; and mentioning here and there that I'm making Grim's meal or that 'all that meat in the freezer is for him' in the hopes that they will become curious.
Just the other day my friend Debbie who works at the grocery store was talking about cats with me and she mentioned that her cat was Way huge. I mentioned that my cat Grim used to be 22lbs but is now 13, so if he can do it, any cat can. I then said 'oh! this is perfect. I have a bag of cat food that I need to get rid of that is really high quality. I'll bring it to you!' I mentioned in an off hand way that it was raw, and said how it's pressure pasturized so it's really safe. I brought her the bag the next day, and reassured her that it had everything her kitty needed and gave her tips on how to transistion. What I am hoping for is that her cat will enjoy it more than regular food and then I can further encourage her to feed raw to all her cats. It's cheaper anyways, and I'm sure her budget would appreciate that. :nod:



As for your vet, you have several options A. lie and say they are on a different diet B. tell them you appreciate their concern but you have put a lot of research into this and have come to the conclusion that it is safe or C. find a new vet :nod:

 

[minka]

Excellent post!

I can't agree that there is conclusive evidence that commercial pet foods are "unhealthy". If there were, convincing someone to switch to an alternative diet would be an easy sell.

But I think all the other is spot on. Switching to a raw diet can help many suffering cats. Suggesting it in a way that doesn't come across as arrogant or condescending will get the best results. And always remember that the vast majority of the people you are talking to have long experience with feeding commercial pet foods with absolutely no problem and know many others who can say the same.

That's not true. There is plenty of evidence that the Atkins diet is terrible for you. The guy who invented the diet died because it was a poor diet. But that doesn't stop people from believing it. Even if there was a study done with thousands of cats uncomplaining raw to commercial, there would still be people who didn't believe. And we have to just accept that. We can't convince everyone. But every cat counts...

*Response to bold text* Ah, but they only had no problems UNTIL there were problems. Many cats die because of problems related to life-long poor diet. I like to reference Dr. Pierson who says "Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited."

 

[rad65]

That's not true. There is plenty of evidence that the Atkins diet is terrible for you. The guy who invented the diet died because it was a poor diet

That is even less true than what you're refuting.

Dr Robert Atkins died in 2003 from head trauma after slipping and falling on a patch of icy pavement. The rumor mill has long been saying that he died form his diet, but that's because that is the sensationalist story. "Alternative diet doctor dies from diet" sells more newspapers (in this day and age, "gets more people to read internet article" is more like it) than telling everyone that he died the same way as anyone else could, with no side effects from his diet.

FYI I am a competitive distance runner, otherwise known as someone whose diet consists of hugely abnormal levels of complex carbohydrates, so I am in no way defending his diet. I am simply stopping the flow of misinformation.

 

[minka]

That is even less true than what you're refuting.

Dr Robert Atkins died in 2003 from head trauma after slipping and falling on a patch of icy pavement. The rumor mill has long been saying that he died form his diet, but that's because that is the sensationalist story. "Alternative diet doctor dies from diet" sells more newspapers (in this day and age, "gets more people to read internet article" is more like it) than telling everyone that he died the same way as anyone else could, with no side effects from his diet.


FYI I am a competitive distance runner, otherwise known as someone whose diet consists of hugely abnormal levels of complex carbohydrates, so I am in no way defending his diet. I am simply stopping the flow of misinformation.

Ah, no, you know what it was? He had a heart attack that people blamed on his diet. I was misinformed that he had died from it. Thanks for clarifying. My point that the diet has evidence that it's bad for you still stands though.

 

[mschauer]

Excellent post!

I can't agree that there is conclusive evidence that commercial pet foods are "unhealthy". If there were, convincing someone to switch to an alternative diet would be an easy sell.

But I think all the other is spot on. Switching to a raw diet can help many suffering cats. Suggesting it in a way that doesn't come across as arrogant or condescending will get the best results. And always remember that the vast majority of the people you are talking to have long experience with feeding commercial pet foods with absolutely no problem and know many others who can say the same.

That's not true. There is plenty of evidence that the Atkins diet is terrible for you. The guy who invented the diet died because it was a poor diet. But that doesn't stop people from believing it. Even if there was a study done with thousands of cats uncomplaining raw to commercial, there would still be people who didn't believe. And we have to just accept that. We can't convince everyone. But every cat counts...
 

Yes, of course there will always be people who refuse to accept the facts regardless of how much evidence there is to back them up. Most people however don't stick obstinately with a claim in the face of conclusive evidence to the contrary. The reason most people don't believe commericial foods are "unhealthy" is because there is no conclusive evidence that they are.

*Response to bold text* Ah, but they only had no problems UNTIL there were problems. Many cats die because of problems related to life-long poor diet. I like to reference Dr. Pierson who says "Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited."

And it isn't hard to understand why someone wouldn't find "Well, you just don't know your apparently healthy cat is actually very sick" a convincing argument against commercial foods. Remember we are talking about how to convince non-believers.