Newborn kittens… a couple of question

[gaogier]

Hello

so, I will cut a longish story short.
in june we got 3 kitten, adopted, born outside unloved semi feral parents

we were told they were born sometime in the last week of April 2022. They were 2 boys and 1 girl, with another couple that the adopted people couldn’t get to yet… but was told they too were going to a good home. So, we knew we were getting kittens before we got them, but we booked the kittens to have everything done, microchip, neutering etc due end of September early october. Anyway all going well, but one of the 2 boys started to breath funny, so we rushed him to the vets, who said he is dying and had to put him down, his heart gave out. Anyway they asked us to bring the other 2 asap, they said that they both have extremely weak hearts and told we need to put off their day at the vets shall I call it, as they won’t survive.

in November/December we tried to get the kittens to have their day at the vets, but they said due to Covid, the Ukrainian war and brexit they were under staff, didn’t have enough medicine or shortage of equipment. We contacted every vet, who said they can’t do them for months due to above reasons. In December I found a TOM cat in our house, but luckily nothing happened but it made me extra careful.

my windo broke in January and unable to latch it correctly and the same TOM was at my window on the 1st floor (second for America) he was trying to break in, it was just gone 3am, and I fell asleep, but my adult cats woke me up at 3:30 and my window was open… I go downstairs to where my girl kitten sleeps at times, guess who I find laying about 2ft away in the loaf… yep the TOM.

9 weeks 1 day and 14 hours later we have 3 new born kittens.

we booked the 2 kittens at many vets since the first week back from xmas with as many vets as we could find, knowing they could become parent… anyway about 5 weeks ago we ended up with a call to the people we adopted from who said about the other 2 didnt do well with their day at the vets. But as my girl was pregnant we managed to get our boy done a couple weeks later. When we collected him they did say he wasn’t developed, so it was a quick operation, but tol that when I get up in the morning expect him to have died.

so, we have stuff ordered for my girl, who the vet said the day she gives birth, make sure she is booked in at her day at the vets. Which we are doing first thing in the morning.

she was amazing, got stuck a little but was able to help her, she almost bit one of the new horns leg off. But just wanting to check if there is anything I should keep an eye on…

 

[Sarthur2]

Are the kittens latching and nursing well?

 

[gaogier]

Yeah, we now have 5.

the 5th one had bits stuck. Mum was too tired to get the last placenta out, the kitten was out and latched on, but she fell asleep before the placenta came out.

when can I leave her tonight? It’s 12:15am… not sure should I stay up, pull an all nighter or leave her to it?

 

[Sarthur2]

Is the placenta out now and has mom chewed the cord?

G gaogier

 

[gaogier]

Yeah, all normal, she was just tired...

She has had a drink, no signs of stress, and she is fast asleep.

I have not really been around newborn kittens before... I mean I have, but was a lot younger and I used to faint at any bodily fluid, but now I have helped deliver 5 kittens. I have kept a close eye on mums heart, and seems like no change, so that is all good. Both of my sisters are medically trained... human but able to use their skills for first sign of problems... I mean anything different, I ask my sisters, if they say they are unsure on anything vet phone calls...

Been through this many times over the last 10+years, not just cats, but my health too... Again, I know its different being a cat, but I can't phone the emergency vet for everything that pops up.

Example, one of my oldest cats soon to be 15, sneezes all the time, when he was a kitten, we were concerned but its just something he does, and he does it everytime he wants to smell something...


Anywho, I need sleep, mum is downstairs in a dog cage, with her kittens, nothing to suggest their are more kittens in her, so all good there.

I do have a question though if anyone knows...

I know a cat can have multiple dads to a litter, however, The only cat I know that had access to her, is a Ginger TOM, and mum is a Tabby mackerel... So, she has had 5 kittens, mostly black, one showing some Ginger (I think a girl tortoiseshell), one shows a tabby face, black body, one a tabby, and 2 are almost pure black all over. The brother to mum is a black boy... but he does have a direct look alike, just a bigger build, and a smaller white collar patch.

Is it too early to know the colouring yet? can a Black fur kitten grow into a ginger coat? How does all of this work? Would mum provide the genetic for black kittens? is dads ginger genetic for tortoiseshell?

Btw, mum does go out, she only follows me to the shed and sleeps in her corner their if I am trying to fix something and spend a while there, she does use the bathroom outside.

Back in December when I found the cat in the house the first time, well, there were a total of 5 confirmed TOMs after a cat that looks like another one of mine, but at the same time completely different (black and white, but like felix the brand cat, but inverted face colouring.)

I don't want to have the argument that I was a bad owner and let brother and sister to co-live together, or that I let my girl become a mum in the first place. When I found the cat in the house 9 weeks ago, I tried and tried to find a solution, maybe see if the people we adopted could help reach out to the TOM owners... or see if vets would give some sort of cat eversion of the "pill"... but no luck.

I feel bad enough more cats are being brought into this world, and so many having no homes to go to...

Thank you...

 

[Sarthur2]

StefanZ can answer your genetic questions about the kittens.

Mom should have a litter box inside for now since she needs to stay with her kittens, and she really should not go outside at all until she is spayed after this litter weans at around 8 weeks old. She could easily get pregnant again very soon.

 

[StefanZ]

A litter may have multiple fathers, but the most common is in fact, they have 1. Even if several toms did mated.

You batch seems to have one father... Kittens tends to have mommas colors, and patterns from both; so yours are either black tabbies or black.
And as you notice, the occasional tortie - yes the red gene come from daddy - unless momma HAS an unvisible red patch somewhere.

 

[gaogier]

Hello

so, an update and needing advice please.

so, mum has taken the kittens to a more quiet place in the house, she didn’t like people coming to the house, either entering our front garden to collect a ball, the post/delivery people or family.

the last 24 hours, a Tom has shown up again, he has been here 4 times since December, he was not the cat I found in the house.

all but mum has been neutered here, Except kittens, we have been in contact with some people (charity) who deal only with or mostly with cats, instead of speaking to a vet directly taking up their time.

so, mum comes out every so often for food, uses the bathroom before going back to her kittens, normally gone for 10mins max, but kept indoors as much as humanly possible. This Tom cat has tried and been unsuccessful to get into our house, but he tries The back, then front and nothing we have done has stopped this cat from trying to get to the mum of these kittens.

do anyone here know what to do? As soon as she has stopped feeding the kittens, we are booking her into the vets…

my other problem is this cat goes after my other female cat who has had her day at the vets many years ago, and she fights him off when he comes too close, with my boy cats in toe…

how soon can my girl get pregnant from her first set, would this Tom kill the kittens as wild cats do?

on some brighter notes.


kittens growing well, all had eyes open on day 9, some are much bigger than others, and now they have opened their eyes, am I correct that they will start roaming the house soon?

we will weigh the kittens again soon today. I am keeping a list of what’s happening.

 

[Sarthur2]

Kittens should not roam the house as they can get into all sorts of serious trouble. They need to stay in one kitten-proofed room with toys unless fully supervised, until they are bigger and older.

Mom can get pregnant now if the tom cat catches her. He is attracted by her hormones. To him, her post-pregnancy lactating hormones indicate she is fertile and available. Shoo him away often, do not let mom out, and see that your other spayed female is kept safe from him. It’s a shame he is not neutered, but he will move on eventually.

 

[gaogier]

Is there some way to scare him off?

I do have access to a dog…

 

[fionasmom]

Whether a tom cat will kill kittens usually depends on various circumstances, not necessarily all predictable. I have only dealt with feral litters and have seen this range to both extremes. One father cat ( I was sure he was the father) literally turned into the nanny and let the kittens play and lie all over him. Another time I came upon two males (one of whom might have been the father) going straight for the kittens and I headed them off just in time.

Cats who want to mate are very hard to deter or scare off and prevent from returning. Can you do anything, even rig something up temporarily, to keep the toms out and to keep the mother inside with the kittens? Try to keep the kittens in one place, as was suggested, if you can. It is not unthinkable that a wandering kitten could get into trouble in a house at large.

Throwing a dog in the mix may not help anything and might only cause more confusion and fear.

 

[gaogier]

Yeah, keeping mum and kittens in the wardrobe, as much as possible mum comes down to eat, use bathroom etc, and only last night at 2 weeks old, she let us hold/check the kittens over.

we must of picked up a tick from outside ourselves or one of my other cats dropped one on us, as there was a tick on one of the kittens, but luckily not bitten.. it was the smallest tick I have seen, so pleased that was picked up.

on other news, i said we had access to a dog, well a little history… my sister adopted a dog, who grew up with a group of cats, the dog then finished growing up around our cats, then our young cats grew up with this dog, as my sister (well both) are paramedics and we look after my sisters dog when she is on a Night shift, along with my niece who are here maybe 3 full days per week and stay over at least 2 nights.
so, it’s not as if they don’t know each other, they half share a bed (don’t sleep in it at same time, but one is normally on the bed when the other leaves) but the dog has scared off any cat that comes past our home that she doesn’t know, or been introduced.

since the dog has been here, the Tom cats have not turned up, the was 3 who turned up yesterday morning, just before the dog was here.

 

[StefanZ]

Yeah, keeping mum and kittens in the wardrobe, as much as possible mum comes down to eat, use bathroom etc, and only last night at 2 weeks old, she let us hold/check the kittens over.

we must of picked up a tick from outside ourselves or one of my other cats dropped one on us, as there was a tick on one of the kittens, but luckily not bitten.. it was the smallest tick I have seen, so pleased that was picked up.

on other news, i said we had access to a dog, well a little history… my sister adopted a dog, who grew up with a group of cats, the dog then finished growing up around our cats, then our young cats grew up with this dog, as my sister (well both) are paramedics and we look after my sisters dog when she is on a Night shift, along with my niece who are here maybe 3 full days per week and stay over at least 2 nights.
so, it’s not as if they don’t know each other, they half share a bed (don’t sleep in it at same time, but one is normally on the bed when the other leaves) but the dog has scared off any cat that comes past our home that she doesn’t know, or been introduced.

since the dog has been here, the Tom cats have not turned up, the was 3 who turned up yesterday morning, just before the dog was here.

Good you have the dog guarding... If momma snikes out, she will be mated, but if a tom snikes inside (which they can!); he can hurt the babies....
If the tom knows momma since earlier, he will prob NOT hurt the babies; but a totally new tom may; its a real danger, not a myth.

 

[kashmir64]

Just curious. Has anyone said that you should be feeding momma cat canned cat food, and if available, some sort of supplement such as KMR or even goats milk? Kittens take a lot out of a mom and with her history, you want her to be as healthy as possible.
Sarthur2 , what would you recommend as a supplement?
StefanZ is also very knowledgeable, and I'm glad is helping you.
These two are my kitten heros.

 

[fionasmom]

What a nice dog! His presence may help to keep the toms away which would be a good thing.

 

[gaogier]

The dog has now gone back home, my eldest cats are no longer happy with this Tom, he has got into my room twice, and Bollo and Taffy were not impressed, and whenever he enters their home they go after him.
I am keeping weekly weight checks of kittens and mum, who although extremely thin now (compared to before) she has been gaining weight, approx 70grams per week, about 250grams at last weigh in… kittens have been gaining some 60-90grams per week too… so I am happy with them.

they are about the same age we got Taffy and Bollo due to the progress they have achieved, they are all exploring, poor mum is trying to keep them together but at times one ends up getting away… glad I am nearly always around.

also how do I start introducing solid foods? I have completely forgotten, being near 15 years ago we got bollo and Taffy…

 

[Sarthur2]

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